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23-11-2003, 04:18 | #41 | |
viva la scientology!
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Then again - once someone pisses me off I'll say anything, aiming to offend them. I don't do too good a job of respecting people when they get me angry... |
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Last edited by cirrus; 23-11-2003 at 04:26. |
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23-11-2003, 04:52 | #42 |
Harrumph.
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PowerPuff Grrl, I have been taken for a white supremacist more than once and I have not uttered a word of hate towards people of other races. It has been merely because of the color of my skin; to be honest, I'm not even near what Arian race is ¬¬ . I'm Slavic. I'm kind of touchy around that subject so I'll appreciate being heard on this my last opinion about that subject.
Sonix is not my example of a subject with the best ideals but he will not go around killing people that are not of his race. He is well over that (or maybe he isn't and that's why we haven't heard of him for a while?); it's stated here and in human rights that to commit a hate crime, verbally or physically, based on religion, race, ideals, sexuality or any other human difference, is a direct offense to that person's dignity and according to the degree of that offense, the offender must pay [a fine, time in prison, apologize publicly, etc.]. HOWEVER and up to my last knowledge of Sonix, he did not have Hitler's swastika on his avatar, he did not have an offending signature, and none of his posts excepting one that very clearly exposed his opinion about his race, in a clear and unnoffensive way that could have clearly saved Hitler from me wanting to travel back in the future, rip his nuts off and make him swallow them, were related to that. Sonix is NOT a threat to anyone. He will not track you down if you're Asian or Black or a Slav or a Jew, because HELL, the forum is full of us; he just commits the crime of vanity, of liking his race the best and wanting to prove an inexistant superiority. LET HIM BE. I do not support him, and in my views, whatever points of view I don't share with the original poster, I'd rather ignore instead of saying he's a subject of reprobation and lack of decence when he hasn't said a word in about seven months. ypsidan04, thanks for liking my funkeh way of declaring I needed breakfast of some kind. I insist, Yulia's breasts (but Lena's, way better), would consist of my full breakfast, supper and dinner. :P |
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23-11-2003, 06:41 | #43 | |
dirty white boy
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darje - I'm led to think that it's more the principle of his having
been a white-supremacist, not his being a potential threat, that caused this topic. Think of this : Suppose that you frequented a particular forum which didn't have any particular reference to homosexuality. [For instance, let's say it's a fansite for a new girl group.] The topic of homosexuality goes unsaid for a long time after your registration, during which time you make friends with loads of people who don't really have a strong opinion about homosexuality at all. Then suppose that one of the other members on the site, when a thread concerning homosexuality was written, stated that he/she just thought that anyone who wasn't hetero was probably going to burn in Hell after death. The first sign of any negativity whatsoever from the person. Would you yourself just "ignore it"? No. And I think that's the same situation PowerPuff Grrl is facing - he made a comment about white-supremacy at one point, and that's soured his entire persona in her view. And rightfully so, I'd imagine - if I were in her shoes, I'd have reacted the same way. But because the issue of racism takes a backseat to topics covering homosexuality at this forum, the topic wasn't discussed or elaborated. Hence, her current opinion. I agree with PPG - if a person has resentment toward another race, sexuality, ethnicity, etc., it has to be dealt with delicately. Stating your opinion without being disrespectful is possible. It of course can lead to certain uneventful results afterward [for example, you probably would grudge what that person on the fansite had said and begin to dislike him/her more and more], but as mentioned time and time again, it's all a matter of rights. And of privileges. And at times, of people privileging themselves to rights they don't yield. But everyone has an opinion. Whether or not people choose to listen to it is irrelevant - no one is incapable of "being the better person" and respectfully ignoring that person or that person's comments if it can't be regulated via moderation. [So many factors to consider. My debate skills are weakened. :/] Quote:
ends with the tip of someone else's nose. There's a difference between "expressing an opinion" and "acting on an opinion". One can be annoying, the other can be illegal. From here, it's more or less a matter of personal belief. I [personally] think that anyone who kills someone else for some abstract reason which isn't justifiable has considerable symptoms of Stupid and is lucky to have gotten far without doing so in the past. And, [personally], that kind of nonchalant disrespect renders their opinions as baseless to me due to the almost complete lack of [in-my-perspective] logic. Subjectivity and objectivity might not level as often as would be more convenient or "easier", but that's just how it is - it deals with personal perspective. So much to consider... |
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Last edited by shizzo; 23-11-2003 at 06:54. |
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23-11-2003, 06:48 | #44 | |
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23-11-2003, 07:07 | #45 | |
The Dream is Over, :~(
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- There were threads where he went into great detail describing his beliefs, most of these threads however were purged long ago, I'm sure there may be some here and there though. One thing for sure it wasn't just one comment that exposed him, it was a series of comments Darje, most, if not all, of your post could be applied to Figdet's case, but it isn't. I really don't see how Figdet is capable of posing a threat to other people... Silenced Sonix other hand... |
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23-11-2003, 07:13 | #46 |
Harrumph.
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PowerPuff Grrl, well, Fidget could slap me. I'd probably pinch her nose, say "what a cute gesture" and walk away because my policy is to never hit girls. :P
Sonix, on the other side, we know nothing of him, wether he jokes or not. He lives in a troubled side of the world and I'm kind of convinced that his beliefs are guided by some mistaken ideal of what should be and should not be. Following Forre's example for once, I say that while he isn't around to defend his case, we don't talk about him. It might agravate you that he actually is around but we are talking about giving a fair trial to anyone whose beliefs breach anyone else's. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go officialy close a thread and start a helluva complicated game. :P |
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23-11-2003, 07:42 | #47 |
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Opinion: I never put much thought on it, and it doesn't interest me that much to become actively involved. But I'll try to state my opinion in all honesty here.
I find comments like "I'd eat Yulia's breasts for breakfast" as disturbing as stating that "Yulia's breasts are like two small pancakes" ( this is where the reference to eating comes but I do not condone cannibalism of any kind ). I also think that people with common interests would ally behind a common ground, it's only a "natural" aspect of our social being. Sometimes it is a just cause, other times it can be something as pointless and stupid, as racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semetism, etc. Yet, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that It goes both ways, there's also reverse racism, "heterophobia" etc. A example: I read from time to time that certain people hate Tatu cause they're "lesbians" - this is the spontaneous, initial reaction Tatu can cause to some people. But if it was crystal-clear that Tatu were indeed gay, it wouldn't be long before the gay fan community could declare that " Tatu are gay, what are you doing in this site?" Heterosexual fans of Tatu are still the minority here. Another example: A certain user should probably have been "penalised" recently according to the rules of the forum but didn't, thanks to her good terms/friendship with the owner of the site. Others should have been "penalised" too, I for one, if we were to follow the letter of the law blindly. All in all, people have a liking/disliking for their fellow people and it's not only the actions that determine it but sometimes only a common characteristic/bond. About racism, of any kind, as I said, I find it pointless and stupid. About homophobia, although I said that to me it seems like an anomaly, it exists in the natural course of things since time immemorial - and even in abundance - so there's nothing to be afraid of. It would also be pointless and stupid to me to judge a person from whether he/she is gay or not - all the same from whether one has pale or dark skin, whether one is Jew, a woman, a German, an American etc. Although I do not condone reverse "homophobia" too, and I don't rate it as a "priviledge" to be gay either And I cannot pretend that I'm close to how gay people feel or think. Nature works in mysterious ways, there's an abundance of species, types, idiosyncrasies etc. To assume that one type is "better" than another is inconclusive, as one type could be better in one thing and worse in another. Let the actions of the person determine her worth, not the colour of the skin, her gender or her sex preference. And there goes my two cents. |
Last edited by spyretto; 23-11-2003 at 08:07. |
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23-11-2003, 08:07 | #48 |
Harrumph.
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spyretto... *ahem ahem*. I didn't think I'd have to clear THAT up, y'know? But lesbian sex is also known as "eating out". Expanding those terms to breakfast, I thought the gag was funny. :P
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23-11-2003, 08:11 | #49 |
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yes, I know, Darje, that was a joke actually - about cannibalism. But what I said there still stands. You're free to say what you want, of course. But if I wrote something like, ahem Yulia has a nice ahem and ahem, I'd like to ahem, I wouldn't feel too proud about that either.
It doesn't matter what I'd think about that ok, it's 7 am here and I'm up already. Are we starting that game or what Oh, about religious differences I'd like to add: They seem to engender a tremendous cycle of violence and I cannot turn a blind eye on that. I'm not saying that Islam has inherent violence or that the common muslim is proud of what's happening but it seems that, at this particular moment in time, Islam is tolerating a lot of hatred and intolerance amongst its people. In general, religious differences have generated a horrific cycle of violence during the course of history, and with Christianity, no less. Another occurence I find utterly bizarre and pointless. |
Last edited by spyretto; 23-11-2003 at 08:33. |
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23-11-2003, 10:31 | #50 |
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Nat, I never thought for a second that you would think racism, homophobia, or any thought/form that are against mankind, are *all right*. I did not accuse you of anything. I simply asked a lot of questions, sharing my thoughts and hoped for you to share yours. My questions were just questions, without sarcasm or any hard feeling hidden. I asked like a child who could only think of straight questions. ^_^’
Now back to the topic of intolerance and discrimination: I wrote that just to give an exemple....I tried to understand how they could react, why they could think in a such way! I understand your point of stating that better now. I, too, try to understand why some people think of certain things differently. I’m always open to new ideas, hoping it could enlighten me in some way. I asked, “Do you agree to IGNORE their thought?” Not that I thought you agreed WITH their thought. IMO, trying to understand others is good, but it’s just not enough. Actions are needed. I think that we all could make a difference if everyone takes little actions around us. I don’t think if we decided to make a change (for the better), it would be called discrimination or intolerance. When our friends have a thought against other human being, I’m not saying that we should beat them up, but we shouldn’t just stand and watch them getting accustomed to their hate either. I know it’s not easy, but one needs to *learn* all through their lives. Never stop searching right when we stepped out of our home/school/church/community. We can learn from others, and others can learn from us. When one stops learning, it means they’re ready to get into their coffin. Yes, life isn’t black and white. I know life is all shades of gray. As I said before, all things concerning humanity can’t be treated as math. When someone hit your partner in the face, she/he bleeds, not you. And it doesn’t work the other way around. But our feelings are connected, and you could feel hurt WITH them, while when you subtract 2 with 1, you’re left with just 1. Not every rule applies to every other rule when it concerns human mind. Today, I asked my friend what she thinks about harming others verbally, or physically. She said whatever you do to others; others have the right to do it back to you. If you don’t want someone to treat you badly, you shouldn’t do it to them either. I don’t think it’s a discrimination or intolerance to Fidget’s thought/belief if someone tried to explain it to her. She disrespected others and claimed to be hurt when others disrespected her. In the end, everyone has their feelings hurt. Why? Because the mature people are too afraid to step in, afraid that their actions could be called intolerance/discrimination? Why fear to improve something, to make something better? Online life is different from the real world, I know. You can throw nasty words at each other and turn the computer off, no problem. But when we get hurt, are our feelings any less real from when it happens in the real world? Isn’t that why some take actions to make the world a better place for everyone else? Isn’t that why some try to reach out for the rainbow in the skies, so that others wouldn’t have to live in gray anymore? But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had... How many people, here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!... Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that? I don’t get the impression of you being homophobia in this statement at all. You weren’t trying to degrade homosexuality. Homosexuality needs time to be really and fully accepted... I'm against the fact persons could be agressive against others because they are homosexual but i understand they could be shocked...if they don't lie about their own feelings. I agree it would take time to be accepted more, but it would not happen if we just try to understand homophobia and not doing anything to enlighten them. Maybe we could lessen their hate? Maybe they would change our mind, and we would begin to think like they do? Honesty isn’t always right. Honesty doesn’t always get you somewhere. It’s the mind and body that could take you far, if you exercised them. |
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Irina Slutskaya the champion of my heart I salute you! I know it's not the correct order of the colors of the Russian flag, but I want Irina in blue anyway. Yeehaw! |
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23-11-2003, 10:43 | #51 | |
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23-11-2003, 11:14 | #52 | |
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This is the "Talion Law"!....it leads out of all humanity...it leads to the jungle, the barbary!..it destroyes all the rules that men built to be civilized!.. Even if others act in a crual way, you HAVE TO STAY FAITHFULL WITH YOUR COUNCIOUSNESS, WITH YOUR IDEA OF THE RIGHT!....and not fall in that you blame in the other just because you were hurt... This my conception... |
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23-11-2003, 11:33 | #53 | |
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Irina Slutskaya the champion of my heart I salute you! I know it's not the correct order of the colors of the Russian flag, but I want Irina in blue anyway. Yeehaw! |
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23-11-2003, 11:50 | #54 | |
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Irina Slutskaya the champion of my heart I salute you! I know it's not the correct order of the colors of the Russian flag, but I want Irina in blue anyway. Yeehaw! |
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23-11-2003, 12:01 | #55 | |
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I saw the sentence in the opposite side... If someone wishes for war, should I have to wish for war too because he/she did?... If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?... It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is ? If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?... |
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23-11-2003, 12:13 | #56 | |
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23-11-2003, 12:31 | #57 | ||||
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Irina Slutskaya the champion of my heart I salute you! I know it's not the correct order of the colors of the Russian flag, but I want Irina in blue anyway. Yeehaw! |
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23-11-2003, 15:54 | #58 | ||
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"I don't understand why they've forbidden our videos or why they seem too shocking for some of the prudes in Britain. We're not trying to shock people. We sing about love. And we're sincere." "We are free, we can do whatever we want". 2. I dont know about that. I can say however, that male fans are a minority for sure. |
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Last edited by ypsidan04; 23-11-2003 at 16:39. |
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23-11-2003, 21:09 | #59 | ||||||||
The Dream is Over, :~(
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Please don't end this discussion prematurely, it hasn't even been resolved properly. Obviously you don't know much him so you can't make a fair assessment of out him. However others can. Moderators even. Just ask around. His presence isn't a requirement him to be judged on the grounds of racism. His posts speak for himself. He constantly says that he never jokes even when describing his "occupation". And even if he were joking would that honestly be excuseable? Would you say the same thing if I said anything homophobic granted, of course, if I was joking? Considering the state of the forum now, I'm guessing I would at least have a major warning, if not an inactive membership, if I did. Oh, and I hope you were joking when you implied his comments be disregarded because he's from South Africa. My "aggravation" is misinterpreted here (btw, aggravation is such an understatement). You see, being a newbie when he was around, all I ever saw from his posts were disturbing views on Blacks, Hitler, and the unappreciated glory of fascism. I was only slighty offended by his views but never really angered. I knew that they were only his views. But what I didn't now was that he didn't have the right to express his racism, but of course I was just a newbie... what did I know, besides it wasn't my responsibility. What I am pissed about though is that all this time racism was tolerated even though it clearly went against the Forum Member Rules: Quote:
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Anyhoo as I have said before, his posts speak for himself. His presence isn't required, the comments that were made he never took them back but rather stood by them. And I'll say it again, this may sound rather offensive however I really don't care what he said. What really ticks me off is that this is being swept under the rug almost as if nothing happened. The inconsistencey found in the implementation of the Forum Rules is appalling. PS: For anybody who wants to know this is where I got his statements. |
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Last edited by PowerPuff Grrl; 23-11-2003 at 21:26. |
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23-11-2003, 21:30 | #60 |
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PowerPuff Grrl, applying the rules in one case and not the other doesn't automatically imply the rule of an overall non-application. Some cases are noticed and another ones are not. Want to claim anything - report the case to a moderator.
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Last edited by forre; 23-11-2003 at 21:36. |
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