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Old 04-10-2006, 19:25   #21
fanoff fanoff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the unforgiven
Offtop:
if you don't give a shit about what people say, why don't you keep on answering? lol no offense
i said i dont give a shit about what blair say.its not the matter now.hey,do you want to be called a killer and a liar?shit,that hurts much more than an opinion,and thats not the thing you or your grandfathers did. http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/ana5.html you can see the pictures during WW1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
yeah ok if there was no "Armenian" genocide, then the Holocaust wasn't genocide based on your reasoning because more than just Jews died. There also wasn't a genocide in Kosovo either. I'm sorry but your reason dosen't make any sense. The number of people or amount of ethnic groups killed doesn't matter... IT IS STILL GENOCIDE!
im saying there was no intended plan to get the armenians race erased.Turkish people suffered more from Armenians!!YEAH im saying this!!see The Massacres To Turkish People By The Armenians!!
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Last edited by fanoff; 04-10-2006 at 19:40.
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Old 04-10-2006, 22:38   #22
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Old 05-10-2006, 00:41   #23
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It's a sad day when people have to revert to such petty excuse as "only 1.5 million people is considered a genocide" or "other nationals were killed as well" to justify attrocities of their own ethnicity. I think accepting one's historical faults and repenting is a true measure of a nation. Unfortunately this is one bitter pill Turkey just won't be able to dodge. It was to blatant to deny. It sends shivers down my spine when someone is semi-justifying the slaughter of a million ethnic Armenians with the fact that their own nationals were killed in the struggle as well. There is NO excuse. Ever.

This coming from me - a person who always supported Turkey's EU ambitions. What's right is right, though. And I don't think they should ever be allowed to join before they take that final plunge and accept their own mistakes. If not then Turkey's membership would be a total mockery of those killed in the attrocitiers.

Not to mention other things should be settled as well. First and foremost, the Cyprus issues. Second - human rights. They're walking a fine line between Arab style represive Islamic culture and the liberal western culture. A few years from now will show which one will prevail. And then the EU membership question will be resolved.

Offtop:
Oh right ... on a side note ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
Are you really that naive?
Trust me. The EU is in NO mood to listen to the US at the moment. Especially regarding it's internal issues. There's never been more competing between the two continents as it is now - the traditional western alliance is coming to an end (aside from the strong US-UK relations). Actually I think the EU would do exactly the opposite of what the US is telling them to do, just to piss them off. That's the level of economic and political competitiveness in the air right now.
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Old 05-10-2006, 00:56   #24
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie

Offtop:
Trust me. The EU is in NO mood to listen to the US at the moment. Especially regarding it's internal issues. There's never been more competing between the two continents as it is now - the traditional western alliance is coming to an end (aside from the strong US-UK relations). Actually I think the EU would do exactly the opposite of what the US is telling them to do, just to piss them off. That's the level of economic and political competitiveness in the air right now.
Offtop:
I totally agree. Bush has absolutely no right to interfer with which country the EU decides to allow admission. I know America would be pissed if the EU tried to interfer with making a US territory a full fledge state, we have no right to order around the EU. I'd say with the latest Republican scandle... Bush won't have unilateral power in the US government much longer... Oh I can't wait for Nov. 7.
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Old 05-10-2006, 00:58   #25
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Offtop:
freddie, I was just watching BBC News 24 and they were talking about corruption in governments. America was 9th if I remember correctly. Don't even forget the power of money
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Old 05-10-2006, 01:57   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
Offtop:
freddie, I was just watching BBC News 24 and they were talking about corruption in governments. America was 9th if I remember correctly. Don't even forget the power of money
Offtop:
Are you suggesting the US would want to bribe the EU into leading favourable politics for them? They can't afford it. EU wants to make it's own riches, not American left-overs and recent market-monopoly trials and scandals proved that clearly. I didn't see any significant continental EU member state condoning the war on Iraq from what I remember.
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Old 05-10-2006, 14:00   #27
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Yet another example of Turkey being "unreasonable", a delegation from the EU Parliament was supposed to visit Turkey, and Turkey won't allow the trip because one of the MEPs in the delegation is Cypriot.

There are 2 simple things Turkey must do to come to terms with its dirty military past and finally be able to move forward as a modern country:

1. Withdraw its troups that illegally occupy Cyprus (and therefore the EU) and recognize the full sovereignty of the Cypriot state and the EU over the island.

2. Recognize the Armenian genocide.

Simple, and unavoidable.
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Old 05-10-2006, 14:52   #28
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
Yet another example of Turkey being "unreasonable", a delegation from the EU Parliament was supposed to visit Turkey, and Turkey won't allow the trip because one of the MEPs in the delegation is Cypriot.

There are 2 simple things Turkey must do to come to terms with its dirty military past and finally be able to move forward as a modern country:

1. Withdraw its troups that illegally occupy Cyprus (and therefore the EU) and recognize the full sovereignty of the Cypriot state and the EU over the island.

2. Recognize the Armenian genocide.

Simple, and unavoidable.
I agree with you Haku, but you are also forgetting about Ideologies. The Turks also need to change their ideology, because it is most definitely not "republican" or "liberal".
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Old 05-10-2006, 18:48   #29
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I'd be satisfied if they at least recognized the Armenian genocide for what it was. The "Turkish" part of Cyrus is probably lost to Greeks about now - that ship has sailed. Europe didn't show enough decisiveness when it happened initially. It'll only matter on a symbolic level after they join the EU, anyway.
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Old 05-10-2006, 19:03   #30
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How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.i can see Armenian Diaspora works smoothly,getting the idea to turn 180 degrees!i should know better what was lived in my ground,not you just reading the books that tell that it happened!
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Old 05-10-2006, 19:39   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.
That is a stupid argument. That is like saying to someone that they can't be sure WWII happened just because they weren't alive then. It's a pathetic idea.
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Old 05-10-2006, 19:59   #32
freddie freddie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
How could you be so sure that it happened?you are saying those like you all lived in that period.i can see Armenian Diaspora works smoothly,getting the idea to turn 180 degrees!i should know better what was lived in my ground,not you just reading the books that tell that it happened!
So basically you're dismissing pretty much the whole of mankind and a huge majority of historians all over the world, to what? Views of your country? Do you HONESTLY believe Turkish viewpoint is the only one that's absolutely valid and flawless? Eventhough it's pretty clear Turkey will be innately biased when it comes to the topic? Get a grip man. Seriously.

Coincidentally.. wasn't that same rationale the one you used as your argument against the theory of evolution?
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Old 05-10-2006, 20:25   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
So basically you're dismissing pretty much the whole of mankind and a huge majority of historians all over the world, to what? Views of your country? Do you HONESTLY believe Turkish viewpoint is the only one that's absolutely valid and flawless? Eventhough it's pretty clear Turkey will be innately biased when it comes to the topic? Get a grip man. Seriously.

Coincidentally.. wasn't that same rationale the one you used as your argument against the theory of evolution?
I am Turkish and Muslim.So,get over me,what a bad mixture!Go believe the erased and rewritten history books and men who study them and get a point that it happened!man what is the main things that were supposed to happen according to them?One time 1 million people killed,oh no,thats too low,then make it 1,5 million.man,that was easy,really easy to call a nation the eraser of another nation!it shouldnt have been told like that!i never want to argue with you over these things,im not thinking about posting to this topic soon,as there are no Turkish Questions for me.So,aske them and make up own answers,without listening.
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Old 05-10-2006, 20:41   #34
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fanoff, I don't really know how to react to your post

to set an exemple, French had done bad things in history (Algerian war, Petain's government during WW2), and I just said it happened
it's life but our rulers admited it and gave some excuses ... stuff like that

so, do you believe there's no Armenian genocide cuz' for you it's ok to kill 1.000.000 people or just cuz' you're Turkish (talking about the state of mind, but no offense )?
cuz' I really don't understand
you said that history books are bullshit?
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Old 05-10-2006, 21:02   #35
freddie freddie is offline
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Yeah cause you know... history books can't even POSSIBLY compare to the all-factual Qur'an, right? No offence to you fanoff, nor to any Muslim out there but do you see the paradox here?

You believe what you want to believe. It's human nature. Every person has his own subjective truth but it just so happens that official world history isn't really a sabotage against the Turks. Because in that case it's also conspired against most nations on the globe, since just about every political entity did SOMETHING wrong at some point in history. But I guess that can't apply to Turks...
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Last edited by freddie; 05-10-2006 at 21:20.
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Old 05-10-2006, 21:23   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the unforgiven
cuz' for you it's ok to kill 1.000.000 people or just cuz' you're Turkish
hey i got misunderstood here.im not here to keep the discussion going on but i must say they are making up numbers,i dont deny bad things in past,i am just saying that relocation cant be called a genocide as some other intended relocations.We didnt want to kill all the Armenians in the world,shit why should ever we do this?we had not got any hate against them but when they were offered a country in Anatolia(which is now the Asian part of Turkey),they forgot the past in peace and they wanted to kill the Turks over there.We got so many losses,like 30.000 people killed in one day.And the government that period decided to relocate the Armenian temporarily.And on the hard road they had to mess up with Kurds,the nation they got damaged the most!And there were Turkish people killed the but that was sooo low much lower than the Turkish people they (the Armenian)killed man!!!Are we calling it a genocide?No,but the armenians do,in spite of the truth that they killed much more Turkish!!They just want to get the East Anatolia from us,and im not making that up,i saw it on television that was what an Armenian said!so sad,they just making up the story to get some reputation all over the world and get some ground from us.First happened though,because Diaspora works so smoothly,i have to say that.But i doubt if second one happens.That will never happen!
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Old 05-10-2006, 21:26   #37
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You are a lost cause. That's my last post in this thread.
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Old 05-10-2006, 21:45   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
We got so many losses,like 30.000 people killed in one day.
still not 1.500.000. ... doesn't look like a genocide either

and as Rachel said, I guess this is my last post in this thread too
I don't wanna argue and it seems we will never agree, but it's ok to have different opinions
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Old 05-10-2006, 22:37   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
And there were Turkish people killed the but that was sooo low much lower than the Turkish people they (the Armenian)killed man!!!Are we calling it a genocide?No,but the armenians do,in spite of the truth that they killed much more Turkish!!
Claiming that much more Turks were killed than Armenians is absolutely ridiculous, if that were true, Turks would have lost the conflict and Armenians would still be living in Eastern Anatolia. Have some common sense!

All historians in the world agree that Armenians were victims of a massive extermination by the Turks, 1 million dead at the very least, and it doesn't matter if those people died during a 'relocation', it's still a crime.

The history of Armenians in Turkey is actually quite similar to that of Jews in Poland… 1.5 million Armenians were living in Turkey before the "events"… There are only 70,000 left today at best… Oops! What happened i wonder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanoff
They just want to get the East Anatolia from us
You do realize that Armenians have been living in Eastern Anatolia since prehistorical times whereas Turks only settled in the area in the 11th century, right? So let's not get confused over who took land to who.
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Old 05-10-2006, 22:50   #40
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This poor guy fanoff is totally brainwashed. I have seen it before in my life in another country. He believes what he has been told. If he starts to doubt after this discussion, it's already an achievement.
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