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16-05-2004, 05:13 | #1 | |
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Ideologic differences: Terrorism
forre: This thread was started by splitting the one about Shapovalov's new video.
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And if you think that you can compare the American army to the brutalities of the arabic rebels, arabic terrorists and arabic countries in general. A man got his head cut off on t.v. for fuck sake! He didn't even get a trial and he wasn't even a soldiers!!! He was an innocent civilian. They cut off your hands for stealing there. Arabs have ripped Christians and jews apart in the street with their bare hands. (That Christian masacre) It is legally acceptable to stone women to death. A person can be kidnapped and put in prison for no reason. A woman who only looks at another man while married may be stoned to death. His family can be tortured for no reason A family can strap their kid down to the table (legally) and genitally mutilate her without and drugs. In Iraq, there were legal rape rooms where women and children were raped. There are numerous other tortures performed there like drowning where an arabic guard in prison shoved a hose down a prisoners throat and drowned him. The fatwa for Jihad calls for the death of all non-muslims including non-religious muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's etc. etc. It is in the Koran. The Koran encourages muslims to seek out the death of all non-muslims however there are moderate muslims who don't take this part of the Koran so seriously. I know some moderate muslims who aren't hateful but they are aware that the Koran calls for such an act. If you don't believe me, type: Jihad and Koran or Quaran in google.com I know people from Iran who live in fear of being kidnapped in the night. They are scared of their own government and the people who live around them. Yes, there are some good people but many of the people who live in the arab world are fucking nuts and full of hatred. Go there. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other country. You would probably meet the same fate of Nicolas Berg or be sold into a brothel. You're right this isn't the place for politics so I'll stop talking about it. I am not anti-arab. I have met some very nice muslims and Christinan arabs who live in North America. I listen to them tell me stories about their country and many of the people in it. It scares me what I hear. I am scared but they have nightmares and they will probably live in fear for the rest of their life. They know that not all men are good and that there is evil in this world because they have seen evil. Many Europeans and North Americans don't even know what evil looks like because many haven't seen it to that extent. They are so used to Hollywood movies where everythings black and white. It's hard for me to understand the hatred and evil that exists in the middle east because I haven't seen it but they have and they have known people who were kidnapped in the night for saying something anti-polical in the street. They have looked into the face of evil. If Shapalov is trying to promote terrorism, he is a loser and a sick fuck Tatu had something positive to say. This is just sick and disgusting. |
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Last edited by forre; 19-05-2004 at 10:19. |
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16-05-2004, 05:59 | #2 |
Mujahedin
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[still on the OT:] Arabs huh? Quite generalized... [exiting OT]
Bout Shapovalov: Dude, get a life! |
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16-05-2004, 06:46 | #3 |
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If I said what I think about the USA and their Israeli paymasters, I’d probably get banned, dollparts3000.
As far as this vid is concerned, I’d like to see it, or at least have a more detailed description of it, before deciding whether it promotes terrorism. |
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16-05-2004, 11:09 | #4 | |
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Wow, what a display of ignorance dollparts3000, thanks for sharing your views on geopolitics, "Arabs are evil!", that's deep...
But i'm used to your style, i'll invite people to visit this thread where you shared some of your other views on a totally different subject: http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread.php?t=6517 I'm not going to waste my time replying in detail because you've obviously been totally brainwashed by US propaganda. The Arab world has been a center of civilization for centuries, many scientific discoveries were made by Arab scientists during the Middle Ages. The Arab world is now going through some dark ages, it happens to every civilizations. The root of most problems in the Middle East is the unconditional support of the US to Israeli policy and the oppression of Palestinian Arabs. If the US had not supported this policy, the world would be a more peaceful place today. An American was decapitated by Arab terrorists... At least 10 Iraqis died while being "interrogated" by US soldiers. A thousand innocent civilians died in the World Trade Center attack... At least 5 thousands innocent Iraqi civilians died because of US bombings during the invasion of Iraq. Political opponents are imprisoned in Arab countries... The US have illegally imprisoned thousands of people in Guantanamo, no legal grounds for the arrests, no charges, no lawyers, no trials. The day Guantanamo was created the US ceased to be a democracy and are in no position to give lessons to anyone, even more so now that the US are torturing prisoners of war. Arab countries have barbaric laws based on a misinterpretation of the Koran... The US are still using death penalty which is also barbaric, and even minors or mentally ill people can be executed. I could go on... Quote:
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16-05-2004, 12:17 | #5 |
Don't dream it, be it!
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Hmmmmm, I'm hesitating to stick my oar in here and I haven't got Haku's impressive geographical and historical knowledge (I bow my head to the French education system) but I will say this. I am a very definitely left-leaning and liberal minded, educated woman whose sexual leanings definitely veer towards the bi. As such, I can't deny that the rise of Islamic fundamentalism both terrifies and enrages me - because of its sheer, bloody wrongheadedness. My own spiritual beliefs are probably closest to Zen Buddhism and I was pretty appalled to see those ancient statues of Buddha being destroyed in Afghanistan a few years back...but here's the difference - I'm not about to go wreaking havoc against those who supported the Taliban, in some crazy act of vengeance. Statues are statues, but human life is sacred, to be cherished above all - precisely as the purported Buddha taught.
I will profess my ignorance of the Quran - I don't know about the true nature of the Jihad personally, but I know there is much debate about whether it is to be interpreted as a physical or spiritual battle. So to get to the point here, I can actually take everybody's opinion on board. As Haku and a few others here have stated, I think there are obvious historical, political and economic injustices (largely the responsibility of the Western world - and yes, I mean the entire Western world, Including my own country: the UK, and France as well - let's quit the childish and unfair American-bashing) that have fuelled the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, but whilst knowing the facts that Haku presents are entirely correct - that Iraqi deaths would easily outstrip American casualties etc I just can't find it within myself to bleed for a culture and people that have tolerated a despotic, unenlightend regime like that of Saddam's and those of the other Fundamentalist despots for so long. Maybe it is hard-hearted of me, and if I was better informed I might well have a change of heart, but again, let's not compare America to a regime like that of Saddam's. I am no supporter of George Bush whatsoever and agree that US (and British and French, again) foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired but on a sliding-scale, it ain't even close. Honestly, which country would you rather be living in? |
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16-05-2004, 12:26 | #6 |
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Oh dear, we're getting into a discussion about Islam and the United States. haku - your argument seems to be that everything in the world is the fault of the United States and Israel. Your comparisons are grossly unfair. The US is far from perfect and I'm very critical of it, but this idea that the US is worse than Osama bin Laden or Saddam Hussein would be laughable if it weren't so sick.
Saddam Hussein murdered 300,000 Iraqi citizens (UN estimate); it is indeed possible that 5000 Iraqi civilians died in the US invasion of Iraq, which is less than the number of people that Saddam Hussein murdered every year during his rule. The ten Iraqis who have died under US interogation in the last year is less than the number of Iraqis who died under torture every week under Saddam. United States personnel have tortured suspected insurgents at Abu Ghraib. The Baath Party had regularly and officially committed far worse tortures on a far larger scale than anything the Americans have done to people who simply expressed a contrary opinion. In fact, all Arab states routinely torture political opponents. This does not excuse what was done, but it's important to keep it in perspective. The fact that the US has executed several hundred convicted murderers over the last 30 years is neither equivalent nor comparable to stoning women to death for adultery in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan or Afghanistan under the Taliban; nor is it equivalent or comparable to the mass murder of members of the "wrong" ethnic group, as happened in Saddam's Iraq, Taliban Afghanistan or is happening now in Sudan. The human rights abuses committed in these Muslim countries are far worse and on a much larger scale than anything the US has done in recent years. I do not support Guantanamo Bay, but keeping supected terrorists under detention is not worse than keeping peaceful political opponents in prison and torturing them, which happens in every Arab country. Israel's driving Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and its occupation since 1967 of the West bank and the Gaza Strip are wrong, but they did not cause or justify the dictatorships in Arab countries. What Saddam did to the Iraqi people is far worse than anything Israel has done to the Palestinians. The way the Saudi regime treats women is also worse than the way Israel treats the Palestinians. The Sudanese government has massacred tens of thousands of its non-Arab citizens in the last few months. What has been the reaction of the Arab states? They helped elect Sudan to sit on the UN Commission for Human Rights. The only country that protested against this travesty was - the US. I remember the millions of people who marched against the overthrow of Saddam. I don't remember them protesting when Saddam was massacring his own people. I don't see them protesting about what is going on in the Sudan. Indeed, haku claims that the root cause of the problems of the Middle East is US support for Israel. I'm not clear why that makes it necessary for Sudan to massacre its black citizens. Make no mistake, I despise George Bush. But there is a dangerous tendency among people around the world who dislike the US to romanticise anyone who is in conflict with 'The Great Satan' and pretend to themselves that the failure of the US to live up to the principles enshrined in its Constitution makes it as bad as or worse than Al Qaeda (which proclaimed after the Madrid bombings "you love life and we love death"), Saddam Hussein (who consciously modelled himself on Joseph Stalin) or the Sudanese regime (which has ideas about Arab racial purity that seem to owe a lot to the Nazis). |
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16-05-2004, 12:41 | #7 |
Don't dream it, be it!
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Thanks for that informative post, Simon, it's nice to see you're still around.
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16-05-2004, 13:14 | #8 |
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The heated discussion here about Islamic fundamentalism, US and Iraq, proves that Ivan has hit the nail again But I want to repeate - the key-word is Chechnya.
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16-05-2004, 13:19 | #9 |
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I know, i know, French people (aka filthy frogs) are ungrateful traitors who hate the US and sell weapons to terrorists around the world to kill American people (not to mention that we smell because we never shower). I've been said that quite a lot by Americans on American forums where i used to go.
I'm no friend of Saddam or Al Qaeda but the mere fact of criticizing the US makes you a pro-terrorist in this day and age of intellectual brainwashing. I've made very clear in this thread that i believe that at some point during this century there will be a general conflict between the West and Muslim theocracies (which is not the same thing as Arab countries). I've also explained why i think that opening a front in this conflict *now* was a strategic mistake from the US. When this conflict happens and if i'm still alive, there is no doubt where my allegiance will lie, of course i will support the my own civilization! That being said, the US are in the process of being taken over by a Christian theocracy and their democracy is weakening day after day, anyone can see that, even some Americans do. I won't support that just because there are "evil" Arabs that are doing worst things that "good" Christians. Now excuse me while i'll go eat some Liberty fries. |
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16-05-2004, 13:22 | #10 | |
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16-05-2004, 13:29 | #11 |
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Wow, this has turned into an interesting discussion. I don't know much about politics, but I just gotta comment, who said all Arabs are evil? Many arabs want peace, many want war, just like many Americans want peace, and many want war. The arabs I know are very happy that Saddam is no longer in charge, I actually celebrated with them and they are very thankful for the US for doing this. Although, right now US army are treating people badly too, so I wouldn't say they're the "good guys". I am against Bush and the way he handles things, because everything seems to be about religion - the Bible says this, the Bible says that, he doesn't agree with homosexuality, why should I support the guy?
About the Shapovalov video: To me it sounds interesting, it's a touchy and scandalous subject and I like that. It should be interesting to see. I don't find it sick in any way, because things that will apparently be shown in the video, are already happening in some places - it's just the truth on television. |
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16-05-2004, 13:53 | #12 | |
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I don't know what to make of the suicide-bomber idea, actually. Clearly it has tremendous provocative potential...but as for the morality of it? Is it just crass, where the tATu ideas were perfectly measured and premeditated? Dunno ....but I'm interested to see this video when it appears. |
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16-05-2004, 14:58 | #13 | ||
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Incidentally, who propped up Saddam for years when it was politically expedient to do so? Yes, that's right. It was the UK and the US, because we thought "Hell, he may be a bastard, but he's our bastard, and at least he's not a hardline Muslim unlike Khomeini next door, and we wouldn't want the Commies to come in and start making friends with him. Better to have him inside our tent pissing out, than the other way around". Which, admittedly, is the way geopolitics has worked for generations, but I don't have to like it. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that it's not clear cut. Yes, Saddam was a bastard, but who helped to keep him there? But apportioning blame doesn't help. We're in the situation we're in and we'd better find some kind of workable solution pdq, otherwise gallons more blood will be spilt on both sides. It's just unfortunate that the current leaders of the US and the UK couldn't find their arses with a map (though R'Tony might manage it with a little help from his spin doctors), let alone draw up a roadmap for Middle Eastern peace. Quote:
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16-05-2004, 15:05 | #14 | |
Mujahedin
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16-05-2004, 15:15 | #15 | |
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16-05-2004, 15:58 | #16 | |
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16-05-2004, 16:18 | #17 |
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Arabs, Koreans . . . who's next!
Tatu Nation is frustrated. It's not working out right. |
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16-05-2004, 19:11 | #18 | ||||||
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Each time Israelis are killed by Palestinians, the US is outraged, but when an Israeli helicopter launches 3 missiles on a group of palestinians just to assassinate one Palestinian leader, the US says that it's ok. Double standards. And if the Sudanese regime is so horrible (which i don't doubt), why didn't the US invade them already since it seems that suddenly the US want to overthrow every dictatorship in the word (expect Libya that seems to be a "good" country now). Quote:
I don't see why you keep bringing the fact that most countries in the Middle East are dictatorships. We all know that and it's not our problem, western countries don't have any legal rights to change regimes in other countries even if we don't like them. As long as they don't pose a threat to our security, it's none of our concern. Now, i'm perfectly aware that Muslim terrorism is a threat that has to be dealt with, and like i said two posts earlier, i've explained in another thread why i think that starting an open front in the heart of the Middle East was a strategic mistake, ineffective and counter-productive (meaning that it's going to cause more terrorism, not less). The war against terrorism has to be led in a much more subtler way: intelligence, infiltration of enemy networks, selective assassinations. Barging in a country and blasting away not wondering who you're killing may be the American way, but it's not going to lead us anywhere, except more senseless bloodshed. 10% of the French population is from Arab origin, terrorist networks are at work in this population and those networks are infiltrated by our intelligence (and having French people who look and speak Arabic perfectly is an asset here). French people may be stupid and traitors according to the Americans, but we do have a fairly good knowledge of Arab culture and how to approach those populations, and we do fight against terrorism in our own, more discreet way. |
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16-05-2004, 21:33 | #19 | |||||||||||||
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The idea that what happens in other countries is none of our business and we should only intervene when our own interests are directly threatened is not morality, it's selfishness dressed up as a moral principle. Quote:
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I'm also intrigued that you care. You say that what Saddam did to his people was no business of ours. Why are you so worked up about what the Americans do? Quote:
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16-05-2004, 22:56 | #20 | |
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The fact is, the Jewish community have the American political system in their pocket and it would be political suicide, for any American politician, to disobey an instruction from Israel. |
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