European Union - General discussion

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by fanoff

why am i discussing this with the people who still announces ISTANBUL as constantinople?they showed that their minds are still in the back 1453,when we conquered ISTANBUL(and it will always be Istanbul not the fucking BYzantine name).

Prior to 1453 ( ie Ottomans invasion to Constantinople and eventual fall of the city ) the city is known as Contantinople. Subsequent to the invasion the city is called Istanbul. Go back to my post and read again. If I talked about Stalingrad at the time of Stalin I'd call it as it was called at the time, STALINGRAD and not Volgograd...got it now?
This is nothing to do with the hatred the Greeks harbour towards the Turks, it's just for practical purposes.
INSTABUL is also Greek ( from "is tin poli" - I thought we had it figured out before )
But then again, if you're not talking about my own posts then I apologise.

[fanoff]

Originally Posted by haku

It was not just a conquest, but a butchery, Byzantine soldiers were executed, civilian men were enslaved, children were slaughtered, women were gang-raped. A great military day for the Turks. But it was not enough, they had to even erase the name of the city to complete its destruction.

then the history books you read must be from another planet.thats too much over-rated!You wouldnt also disagree that we suffered a lot more from BUTCHERIES than you(what you see was not as big as we did)!

Originally Posted by haku

My mind is stuck in the past? Not at all. I acknowledge the past, which is totally different, instead of like you pretending that it never happened.

me pretending it never happened?calling the city with its previous and non-Turkish name is absolutely pretending that the conquest never happened.

Originally Posted by haku

The mention of the previous name of Istanbul should not make you angry in any way, it's history, it happened. Here in France many cities have three names (or more), one Celtic, one Roman and one French. Nobody will be angered by the mention of any of those names, quite the contrary, the inhabitants are proud of the long history of their cities and acknowledge all of it. The city of Marseille for example is often referred to as Phocée, from its Greek name Phocaea (Marseille was originally a Greek colony), and the inhabitants of Marseille don't hesitate to call themselves Phocéens, they embrace their entire history, from the Greek colony of Phocaea, to the Roman town of Massilia, to the French city of Marseille.

i got nothing to do with that.Even the city im living now is called similar to the hellenic name of it(i live in Bergama,it was Pergamon,and im proud to live in this city which is full of history)but its different from the Istanbul matter.Many people calling the previous name of Istanbul claims the city still belongs to greeks,pretending not to see the city is Turkish for more than 500 years.

Originally Posted by haku

But if you mention Constantinople to the Turks, you get an angry response, like the past history of Istanbul is a shame and should be erased, like the city was actually founded by the Turks, like St -Sophia (i'm sorry, i don't know the official Turk name as i'm sure calling it by its original name is also considered offensive) was actually built by the Turks, like anything that ever happened before the Turkish conquest has no value whatsoever. You should be proud of the long history of that city instead of being offended by the mere mention of its pre-Turkish past. How do you cope with the ancient ruins of Greek cities on the Turkish Western coast, have you also renamed them with Turkish names so you could pretend you're the ones who actually built them?

i wont repeat what i said above.

The Armenian genocide? It never happened. Kurdistan? It doesn't exist. And of course the illegal occupation of northern Cyprus is a myth, Cyprus has always been a Turkish land (even though in reality most Turks currently living in Cyprus were brought there a few decades ago) and for Turkey the Greeks that have been living in Cyprus for over 2000 years do not exist, Turkey won't even recognize the existence of the Cypriot state which is right there next to them and they invaded 30 years ago. So we are now in the ludicrous situation to have Turkey that want to become an EU member, but won't recognize that one of the current EU members even exist!

muhahaha.you take things so easy.its not like that as you should know.But you dont even try to listen to me and even understand it.Dont comment on things you dont know much about.who told you that we think greeks dont exist in cyprus?oh,hush i should have thought that you think that Turkish people dont exist in Cyprus,then thought we think the same way.

Originally Posted by haku

history is not a menu à la carte where you can pick and choose what happened and what didn't happened

thats so true,but you dont see the fact that history is always lived.what writes on the books is not always true,or not always include what all happened,just the thing which will do some work for you later,anyway im not trying to change anybody's mind as you are trying to do,so...

[spyretto]

Hey, what on earth are you on about, the city is Turkish, period....and a fine city it is. If we could we'd claim it off you again and rebuild a center of Christianity there as before, but we don't live in the 15th century. So it can't be done - for now. 12 million Greeks can't fight 85 million of Turks
You want to get your hands in the Aegean, maybe we want Istanbul back...no harm in wanting something. But we cannot ignore history as freddie did when he said why don't the Turks have more of the Aegean
Yes, there was butchery on 29.05.1453 but the gates were opened from the inside, so the legend has it. There were always traitors and ruffians among the Greeks.

[dradeel]

haku and fanoff - I think that name-thingie has evolved to unecessary heights. Speaking about Istanbul today, I think it's fair and square that it's beeing called Istanbul, but in haku's defense we were talking about a city that formerly were a western city, aye? And when the war against the Ottomans were going on, the city would've (most probably) be renamed with its former name if it was conquered. Sooo... in that way they would've recaptured Constantinople ... it would be kinda wrong to say they had "recaptured Istanbul". But either way, they didn't conquer the city.. Hehe. So let's not speak of what ifs and buts.

And it's not like haku said: "I'm going to Constantinople for my summer vacation." Cause that would've been very wrong. Agree?

I'm personally a much more fan of the norse name Miklagard tho. Hehe

[freddie]

Originally Posted by haku

And 120 million in a couple of decades (and up to 150 million), one third more than Germany, twice more than France or the UK, one sixth of the total EU population… That will give Turkey an overwhelming weight in EU decisions, Turkey will be in control of the EU and that's an insane risk to take.

But I still fail to see how they're going to be "in control of the EU" soley cause of their massive populace, seeing as how the EU parliament doesn't have same legislative authority as national parliaments. And even so, don't forget that their birth rate might fall significantly once they reach a comfortable economic level in which most people will start treasure their own luxuries in life more than they'll be willing to take care of a large family. It happened in pretty much most developed countries in the world and I doubt Turkey will be an exception. If anything economic currents will help in restraining the country's over-population problems.

Originally Posted by fanoff

muhahaha.you take things so easy.its not like that as you should know.But you dont even try to listen to me and even understand it.Dont comment on things you dont know much about.who told you that we think greeks dont exist in cyprus?oh,hush i should have thought that you think that Turkish people dont exist in Cyprus,then thought we think the same way.

Originally Posted by fanoff

thats so true,but you dont see the fact that history is always lived.what writes on the books is not always true,or not always include what all happened,just the thing which will do some work for you later,anyway im not trying to change anybody's mind as you are trying to do,so...

That's a very non-chalant way of going about things. While I do initially support Turkey's bid to be accepted into the EU Haku & Spyretto raised some valid points which your country has to come to terms with politically and ideologically and you just attacked those points without any merit or credible arguments in your case. That's the kind of attitude I hope your leaders won't show when they're negotiating with the EU. And frankly... saying "what's written in books is not always true" (in this case at least) can be percieved as thinking all historians in the world are probably wrong and they're conspiring against Turkey when they write something negative about it.
Turkey DOES have a lot of skeletons in the closet and you can bet your ass no one just made them up out of thin air. It's your country's duty though to recognize and make amends for those mistakes.

Originally Posted by spyretto

You want to get your hands in the Aegean, maybe we want Istanbul back...no harm in wanting something. But we cannot ignore history as freddie did when he said why don't the Turks have more of the Aegean

I did?

On a different note:
Regarding this whole thing about the Turks not being part of our cultural herritage and things like that... that may be true to an extent. But an ironic part is that genetically most Turkish people today are very much indoeuropean, with a significant helenic gene pool prsent within the population. See if they'd retaint heir original gene herritage they'd really be a mongoloid race (oriental), like people people of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and a those other ex Soviet republics (partially) are. But it seems like Turks these days are mainly caucasoids and if there IS a mongoloid genetic presence it's certainly very faint. So as far as their genes are concerned... they're as European as it gets.

About city names: Old city names are only contraversial when there're political agendas (or at least political ideologies) behind it. For instance old latin names for major cities are widely used here in popular culture (Emona, the Roman name for our capital Ljubljana is also a chain of stores, Celeia, the Roman name for Celje (our 3rd largest city) is a dairy etc) Given the history of Constantinople/Istambul it's really very obvious Turks would consider it a great symbol of triumph over their adversaries, so it's kind of logical this would be a touchy subject (as it is for Europeans).

[dradeel]

Originally Posted by freddie

about the Turks not being part of our cultural herritage and things like that... that may be true to an extent. But an ironic part is that genetically most Turkish people today are very much indoeuropean, [...]. So as far as their genes are concerned... they're as European as it gets.

Genes doesn't count for anything in this matter, and I think it's very wrong to decide who should be included or not based on genes. And I can't understand why it was brought up in this conversation at all. To prove that Turkey belong to Europe? I think there are other ways of argumenting for that. As Turkey gets more westernized they'll be more and more drawn to Europe and the west instead of the east. Personally I think Turkey is an important country to cooperate with for EU, and if they won't become a member in the first decades to come, then at least there should be formed strong relationships between EU and Turkey.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by dradeel

Genes doesn't count for anything in this matter, and I think it's very wrong to decide who should be included or not based on genes. And I can't understand why it was brought up in this conversation at all. To prove that Turkey belong to Europe? I think there are other ways of argumenting for that. As Turkey gets more westernized they'll be more and more drawn to Europe and the west instead of the east. Personally I think Turkey is an important country to cooperate with for EU, and if they won't become a member in the first decades to come, then at least there should be formed strong relationships between EU and Turkey.

That's my point. I only brought the gene issue up as an interesting fact, as a counter-ballance to opinons saying they're an alien enity in this great ethnic pool of indoeuropeanism.

[fanoff]

i dont give much shit about those "genes" thing but heres a little research about etruscans.The Etruscan people are the people who ruled Italy before the Roman period if my memory doesnt betray me.In this research it says that etruscans have a very very strong relativeship between Turks and Tuscans

hers the research by the Ferrera university in Italy in pdf format

[haku]

So it's now official, Romania and Bulgaria will join the EU in 3 months, so congrats to them.

After those two, the enlargement process will however come to a long pause. Until the EU gets new institutions, there will be no more enlargement, and i think that was the reasonable thing to do. The EU must get its constitution and a much more federal structure before going any further.

[Rachel]

I have a feeling we may pull out of the EU

[haku]

Originally Posted by Rachel

I have a feeling we may pull out of the EU

Everything is possible with the UK. If that happened, i'm guessing the UK would virtually become an oversea US territory, if not a full state.

[Rachel]

LOL! So true! We are majorly over reacting at the moment about Romania & Bulgaria. Damn us having the language so many people know! LOL

There's been a lot about this recently, too.

[the unforgiven]

Originally Posted by haku

Bush says Turkish EU membership is in US interest.

LOL at that
so pathetic!! when the next american elections will take place?
our lovely W. would better ratify the treaty of Kyoto for Sustainable development's sake !!

[haku]

EU-led Cyprus-Turkey talks have collapsed and are unlikely to resume anytime soon. EU leaders will meet in December and may decide to freeze accession talks with Turkey.

[prospector]

Originally Posted by haku

EU-led Cyprus-Turkey talks have collapsed and are unlikely to resume anytime soon. EU leaders will meet in December and may decide to freeze accession talks with Turkey.

A blind alley

[haku]

The EU commission will publish next week a report on Turkey and its ability to join the EU, the BBC has already read the report and its conclusions are very negative for Turkey.
EU leaders will meet in December to discuss the report and what to do next, several EU Members are expected to ask for a suspension of accession talks with Turkey.

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by Rachel

LOL! So true! We are majorly over reacting at the moment about Romania & Bulgaria. Damn us having the language so many people know! LOL

we love you too

[haku]

In related news, in the same report published next week, the EU commission will recommend to postpone membership talks with Western Balkan countries until an undefined date.

However, the EU commission is once again shying away from formally declaring where the final borders of the EU will be, which in my opinion is a grave mistake. If more and more people are opposed to further enlargement, it's precisely because they don't know 'where it's going to end' and feel that it's gotten out of control. People need to know what the final borders of the EU will be so they can get used to it, keeping a blur on the borders will only push people to be even more conservative and block any future enlargement in fear that 'it's never going to end'.

[haku]

As expected, the EU commission has issued a report recommending to pause the enlargement process.

No speedy Balkan enlargement as EU urges reforms
EU to take more self-protecting approach to enlargement

Personally, i totally agree with the decision, the EU has gone from 15 to 27 states in a couple of years, a long pause is very much needed. The EU is already big enough to be a major player in the world anyway, and with the latest enlargement, it has reached in the East the strategic borders that it was aiming to reach. Now, the primary focus for the foreseeable future should be on strengthening the EU as it is.
We also should be very careful about the real intentions of any future member state. Poland for example pretended to be very much pro-European during accession talks, but as soon as it secured its membership, it turned around and said it was actually quite eurosceptic, pro-American and pretty much in line with the UK in thinking that the EU should be dissolved. We'll have to make sure that future members join for the right reasons and not because they want to sabotage the EU from the inside.
It would probably be prudent to pause enlargement until the EU (or a subset of the EU such as the Eurozone/Schengen states) reach federal status, which would prevent a few newcomers to jeopardize what the older members have worked hard to build since 1957.

[haku]

Poland refuses to cooperate with the EU investigation into the illegal CIA detention centers and renditions.

Poland has become the first EU member state to be theatened several times that its voting rights in EU institutions could be suspended for failure to respect fundamental EU regulations (the previous time was when Poland mentioned its intention to bring back the death penalty).
The general attitude of Poland since joining the EU only 2 years ago has been extremely disappointing to say the least, the country has quickly turned its back from the EU and become pretty much a trojan horse of the Bush administration, apparently breaching some basic EU regulations in the process. One can wonder if Poland was truely ready to join the EU, a bitter experience to keep in mind for future possible enlargements.

Unfortunately the EU lacks federal powers to fully investigate the wrong doings of member states, but hopefully the recent Democrat victory in the US will allow to unveil the dirty work of the Bush administration and by ricochet will hurt those in Europe who have shamelessly collaborated with it.
Some people in Europe seem to have considered that the Bush administration would remain in power forever and that there never would be any consequences to a full colaboration with it, i can only hope that they'll be proven wrong very soon.