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::Opinions:: Homophobia, racism, etc.


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Old 16-11-2003, 18:52   #21
PowerPuff Grrl PowerPuff Grrl is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by haku
Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated.
But racist remarks were tolerated in this forum.
Wasn't there a white supremacist awhile back that often shared his opinions?
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Old 16-11-2003, 19:08   #22
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Aw haku, I really didn't mean to offend U any way. I just wanted to point out that ppl who go against someone's human rights have their humain rights as well. I wasn't talking about U personaly. And I used ur word 'facts' just as it was the shortest way to call 'someone's humain rights as he/she sees them'. It wasn't directed to U personaly, really. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. Hope U understand
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Old 17-11-2003, 08:03   #23
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PowerPuff Grrl, methinks that the white supremacist was... uh, Silenced Sonix. Everyone neverminded his opinions, as unfair as it was to nevermind ANYONE's opinion, but I guess that it is just that he was the only white supremacist around. He's been offline quite a long while, too. He comes and goes, just like Vicious. :P

I am in haku's party in here. I was offended to be thought of as unnatural. Well, I am not anyone's clone, you know? I was born outta my momma's and my papa's stuffdoing, and my business with another woman is just as natural (and MINE not to share with anyone else) as Fidget might be with her boyfriend. I am nonamused to know that sex has to be brought up to prove anyone/anything wrong, and while it is ANYONE's opinion, homophobia is in my experience, to be scared to experience homosexuality. We are not here to be discriminated and called unnatural, because in any way you look at it, it's just as offending as being called wrong.

I don't mean to ask that her opinion is changed. I just wish that she knows a little handy thing called POLITENESS. Hey, Echoed has made me learn how to be polite over the course of a year, because if anyone can remember, I was a lil' punk@$$ back on february. Why won't she be? freddie got his for sharing his opinion in a wrongful choice of words, now that I remember, why can't she get hers?
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Old 17-11-2003, 14:33   #24
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Quote:
Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of something.

Of course, homophobia (racism and chauvinism) infringe upon human rights, so a little bit of hypocrisy towards that type of freedom of speech is not surprising.
It was the first reply to my post, but i decided to take my time to reply because it is indeed a complex matter and i wanted to be as short as possible.

Am i an hypocrite when i say that some comments are unacceptable when in the same time i present myself as tolerant? Anyone is free to think so.

I never said that homophobes, racists, and chauvinists have no rights.

The skinheads who beat up a gay person to death have rights. The persons who blew up two synagogs in Istanbul have rights. Does that mean we have to let them express their "views"? Certainly not.

Verbal abuse may not be as lethal as baseball bats or bombs, but it hurts, it hurts a lot, no matter how politely the abuse was put. No one deserves to be abused in any way, and that's why i repeat that homophobic, racist, or chauvinist comments can't be tolerated.

I don't see that as hypocrisy.

I do not believe in absolute freedom of speech. (There is no such thing in Europe anyway) Freedom of speech can't infringe upon human rights. Freedom of speech stops where the right of other people to exist starts.
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Last edited by haku; 17-11-2003 at 14:44.
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Old 17-11-2003, 16:47   #25
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I agree with Haku.

I've also heard it expressed as "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

Yes, people have a right to believe whatever they wish. It isn't like you could prevent that anyway.


But provoking people, hurting them on purpose? No, I don't believe *that* is a right.

Parrish
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Old 18-11-2003, 04:54   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by darje
PowerPuff Grrl, methinks that the white supremacist was... uh, Silenced Sonix. Everyone neverminded his opinions, as unfair as it was to nevermind ANYONE's opinion, but I guess that it is just that he was the only white supremacist around. He's been offline quite a long while, too. He comes and goes, just like Vicious. :P
Yeah, that was his name!
Thanks Darje.

If I remeber correctly though, people felt uneasy about his opinions, most ignored him (including myself) however there were a few that argued with him in a very impressive manner. In the end though he contributed to to many thoughtful posts that wasn't in any relation to his prejudices. As well, many members regarded him no less than any other member.

Silenced Sonix may have been the only white supremacist but Fidget is the only homophobe that we know of too (or at least I know of)... Are there others?
If there are, than is the policy concerning homophopes, racists, mysoginists, anti-semitics, etc to ban them as soon there is more than one of them? We should limit the number to one from each group?
If that is true (which I know isn't) it is kind of absurd, don't you think?

What I'm basically asking is: What is the difference between these two people?
The only thing I can come up with is that Silenced Sonix never really expressed his views out of the blue; he always said it within the context of a particular thread. Whereas with Fidget, I get the impression that she is just a sh!t disturber and she kinda enjoys it too. Which implies that her views shouldn't be taken so seriously since, y'know, it seems like she just trying to piss you guys off.

But you guys come off as being more pissed off that she's homophobic than the fact the she's a no good common troll. Based on your reasoning then, a racist can still be an active member but God forbid a homophobe should be too.
Puh-lease.
Figdet should be banned because she's a punk, not because of her views no matter narrow-minded and hateful they are. You all have the choice to ignore them as you most of you have with Silenced Sonix.

forre: Impressive analysis but unfortunatelly wrong vocabulary has been used to describe Fidget and Sonix - thus, a BIG warning for personal direct offense.

PS: This post isn't implying that the mods should ban Silenced Sonix. I'm just stating my opinion.

PPS: I just realized how bad it is that my post is right under Sunwalk's.
Sorry but I barely had any say in this, I felt I had to say something.

Last edited by forre; 18-11-2003 at 06:26.
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Old 18-11-2003, 05:11   #27
haku haku is offline
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PowerPuff Grrl

Excuse me for not being a senior member like you are but how am i supposed to know about things that happened before my joining this forum?

This is actually the first time i've heard the name Silenced Sonix, i've never seen one of his post.

If i had been around when he made racist posts, i would have been as shocked as i was by the homophobic ones. I think my posts are pretty clear about that.
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Old 18-11-2003, 05:41   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by haku
PowerPuff Grrl

Excuse me for not being a senior member like you are but how am i supposed to know about things that happened before my joining this forum?
How are you supposed to know?
Quite simple actually, you're not.
As you have stated before, you weren't around when Silenced Sonix was, it is implied that you are not the person I'm exclusively asking my questions to then.
I have no idea where you got that idea.
You don't think I would be able to get that there may be some people that weren't here long enough to know of Silenced Sonix?

Man! You really don't think much of me, do you?

Last edited by PowerPuff Grrl; 18-11-2003 at 05:48.
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Old 18-11-2003, 06:00   #29
shizzo shizzo is offline
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Voilа - misdirection visits again.

[It's obvious that Haku thought she was included in the
category of "others", which is an honest mistake to be made
regardless of personal opinions. In fact, from the tone of the
mentioned post contrasting white supremacy and homohate,
it did sound like the cons of racism and homophobia were
being weighed aside one another. Perhaps not intentional,
but misinterpretation is common and boundless - and definitely
not worth the time to develop an issue over.]

Last edited by shizzo; 18-11-2003 at 06:12.
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Old 18-11-2003, 06:07   #30
haku haku is offline
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PowerPuff Grrl

Fair enough, i apologize.
Quote:
it is implied that you are not the person I'm exclusively asking my questions to then
Quote:
But you guys come off as being more pissed off that she's homophobic than the fact the she's a no good common troll. Based on your reasoning then, a racist can still be an active member but God forbid a homophobe should be too.
This is the reason why i thought you were addressing me as well. "you guys", you used plural, so you were not addressing one single person. I and Darje are the two people who have been clearly on the "pissed off" side in this thread, and at least 2 thirds of the replies are directed at me, so i assumed i was the second person you were talking to. My mistake. End of story.
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Last edited by haku; 18-11-2003 at 06:24.
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Old 18-11-2003, 23:16   #31
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Quote:
In fact, from the tone of the mentioned post contrasting white supremacy and homohate, it did sound like the cons of racism and homophobia were being weighed aside one another.
Cniaju, if you're referring to my post then I assure you I wasn't prioritizing racism over homophobia. I was weighing the reactions with said phobias.
But of course, if you weren't referring to my post, then... uh... either way it seems misdirection will be extending her visit.

haku, reading through my post I can see how you came up with the impression that I was targeting you. Yeah, I would've came up with the same feeling and for that, I too apologize, sorry guy.

Forre, consider the warning acknowledge. Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come out like that. But uh... how did I insult Silenced Sonix?

And finally,

Quote:
Originally posted by taty994945
peace
For serious.
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Old 22-11-2003, 04:03   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by QueenBee
I think that Silenced Sonix was very intelligent. I never got the impression that he was a racist.
He was intelligent, and one of my good friends. I wish he was on more, haha. He has, well, "politically incorrect" views sometimes, but don't we all?
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Old 22-11-2003, 14:50   #33
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Nat. I just can't ignore your posts. ^_^’ I disagree that it's OK to have thoughts that are against others even *in private*. Just b/c everyone does it, doesn’t mean it’s OK. Guilt is something that holds us back from hurting others, mentally and physically. What kind of a person are you if you don't mind having bad thoughts? It's impossible to forbid anyone from their ways of thinking, but do we have to let it go on when little things like the homophobia in this little forum could be enlightened? IMO, every little thing leads to bigger things. What would happen if Martin Luther King Jr. thought, "Oh, everyone has their own rights to like/dislike black people. After all, not every white wants to kill us. Occasional disgusted looks wouldn’t hurt."??? He knew--we know. What should we do now with that little hate thought from the poor artist, Hitler? Let say Hitler never made it big. It’s just a thought, eh? Because nobody punches our faces b/c they don't like us for who we are, so everything is all right? Maybe because our lives are too blissful we forgot about others? People with anti-social disorder can NOT understand why it is WRONG to kill people. Their brains tell them so. So should we respect his/her thoughts when they haven't acted on it yet? Should we ignore their thoughts as their next victims probably wouldn't be your children, your loved ones, or you, yourself?

It's impossible to compare us with those 1,000 years ago. Many of them couldn’t read. They knew nothing about other things outside their communities. Subtract those 900 years, and we are left with just 1 century that the world really did CHANGE. We walked from the beginning of times. Only until recently, I could fly to France tomorrow to have this discussion with you face to face. (Wouldn’t that be nice?) Things changed fast only in the past century, we are SO DIFFERENT now. We could learn from the mistakes in the past from taking a few classes (must paid great attention though), and we’re supposed to make it better today. The next generation will learn from us. They'll be smarter than us. But it is *we* who can teach them to think, to be better than us. But nothing will be better if we *the present* does not take action.

But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God." These societies have their own rules ... so .
-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.


God and religion are only their excuses for their hate. And I don’t think it’s a discrimination to disrespect their rules. Since when God said you should kill? It is the wicked humans, who have thoughts against others, made the rules up. Do you agree to ignore their thoughts? I don’t assume I know all the right/wrong actions. But as far as humanity concerns, I believe everyone understands it to some points. There’re just some that don’t want to.

Echoed
There’s nothing hypocrite about saying homophobic is bad, while limiting freedom of speech to some extent. What good can Hate possibly do for anyone? Would someone die if they shut their mouths, and in return, not hurting others? Not every rule can apply to every other rule. Humans are not equations. Our hearts don’t always multiply something the same way twice. Our actions can not be erased. Feelings can not be subtracted. Life can not be replaced. And I agree that nobody would like to be told to shut up. We enjoy our freedom, and yes, we just have to care more of our words.
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I salute you!


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Old 22-11-2003, 16:00   #34
taty994945 taty994945 is offline
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Well said uhaku, I don't like the idea of completely unrestrained freedom of speech.
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Old 22-11-2003, 16:09   #35
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Very well said, Uhaku.

And you get your point across in a non-confrontational way. Very respectful.

Parrish
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Old 22-11-2003, 18:44   #36
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Uhaku , I agree with Parrish in the fact "you get your point across in a non-confrontational way." And it doesn't surprised me from you Linna .
I wish a lot of people could be so respectful as you, here.

I'll write a short post because I'm not sure it's the good thread to have a such debate. You know where to join me so I invite you to speak about that tomorrow , if you want, to have more explainations.
1/ I've never thought that Hitler what a good person as Staline or Pol Pot...
2/ Never thought that Martin Luther King has to stay mute. I think it's a great thing he acted...but i don't consider the actions of the Black Panthers as good, neither...
Sometimes , things are just grey...
I know you love the cinema so examine the life of Jean Seberg and read the book of her husband , Romain Gary, "White Dog"...you'll see racism isn't a so simple thing...
Be careful ! I NEVER say racism is a good thing. I say :"Just tell the truth: Racism exists EVERYWHERE , in all the COMMUNITIES"
That doesn't mean, as other people will hasten to say it, while jumping just on WORDS, without seeking to dig the IDEA which is behind:" Nathalie is against Black People "...that just means, "Let's see REALITY and let's study a problem by looking at ALL her components and don't satisfy ourself with stereotyped sentences or ideas.."

3/
Quote:
Originally posted by Sunwalk
But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God." These societies have their own rules ... so .
-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.

-->UhakuGod and religion are only their excuses for their hate. And I don’t think it’s a discrimination to disrespect their rules.... Since when God said you should kill? ..... Do you agree to ignore their thoughts?
Linna ...you're one of the rare persons , here, who know me a little...
I wrote that just to give an exemple... to try to give the point of view of another who was educated in the mind that homosexuality could be a sin!....I tried to understand how they could react, why they could think in a such way!...
Now , Linna, Do you think it WAS I REALLY WHAT I THINK?....
I hate poeple who kill in the name of God and you know it....You see, I admit..so I don't love everybody...

4/Never said: You're free to think all the most horrible things of the earth if you don't tell them!...
But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people , here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?...
Homosexuality needs time to be really and fully accepted...

I'm against the fact persons could be agressive against others because they are homosexual but i understand they could be shocked...if they don't lie about their own feelings.


Take care to static words without trying to see the idea which is behind and all isn't just WHITE or BLACK. That's just I wanted to say in my post.

...May be it will be better to open a new thread to speak about that, no?.. and come back here to the first title of the thread.


Sorry , it wasn't short

Last edited by nath; 22-11-2003 at 18:54.
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Old 23-11-2003, 02:16   #37
PowerPuff Grrl PowerPuff Grrl is offline
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You know, I really resent the fact that Silenced Sonix is highly regarded here. That his racism can be downplayed as merely being "politically incorrect" and excuseable because we all apparently have been politically incorrect.

More importantly though, I truly resent that fact that moderators are avoiding to explain why this poster has been allowed to remain active while another poster also expressing hate to a group of people be warned and eventually banned.

This kind of neglect badly reflects that of the forum, IMHO.
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Old 23-11-2003, 02:20   #38
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Quote:
More importantly though, I truly resent that fact that moderators are avoiding to explain why this poster has been allowed to remain active while another poster also expressing hate to a group of people be warned and eventually banned.
I absolutely agree. And this user (I have nothing against this user at all) has gone away with these kinds of things more than once... But. I don't know, really.. It feels as if I say something towards someone I feel hated, so I will not bash this user...
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Old 23-11-2003, 02:32   #39
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i am attracted to whoever. people who are should just be left alone. it's not a choice, it's something that just is. whenever people are intolerant they should be tought to respect and possibly understand. it's never healthy to respond to intolerance with negativity. it only provokes more negativity.
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Old 23-11-2003, 03:58   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by haku
I may be finished as an intellectual, but i still have a brain. I'm quite old, and when i was younger i did give a lot of thoughts to the "facts" i've mentioned. I've reached my own convictions on what's right or wrong, i don't try to impose them on anyone, but i'm not used to remain silent either when i don't agree with someone else's.

Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
Certainly not me. I totally agree with your opinions on this, as usual. You're cool with me, one of my favorite members here.

Quote:
The skinheads who beat up a gay person to death have rights. The persons who blew up two synagogs in Istanbul have rights. Does that mean we have to let them express their "views"? Certainly not. - Haku
And the people that killed Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming just because he was gay ( ) have their rights. But we can't allow them to express their opinions by killing someone just because they don't agree with how this person lives their life. But we do have to let people like the Ku Klux Klan have their freedom of speech, no matter how much we disagree, as long as they are non-violent.

Quote:
Verbal abuse may not be as lethal as baseball bats or bombs, but it hurts, it hurts a lot, no matter how politely the abuse was put. - Haku
I've seen this quote before: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will really hurt me"

I have to agree with sunwalk - I can't see anyone wasting time here that doesn't like Tatu. Of course there are different levels of "liking", but I can't believe that people i.e. Fidget dislike Tatu, as much as she seems to act like it.

Quote:
Originally posted by darje
For example, I was NOT amused by Yulia's breasts being called "pancake boobs". Excuse me? Missy, those are pancakes I'd eat any day. Rawr.

I'm not either. She shouldn't say something like that, completely knowing that many people would be offended.

sunnypoison and sunwalk (the two suns ) - Very good posts you made.

And about normalness, and what's natural, I have to repeat one of my favorite Tatu quotes: Everything's normal if it's love.
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