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::Opinions:: Homophobia, racism, etc.


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Old 16-11-2003, 06:10   #1
Echoed Echoed is offline
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::Opinions:: Homophobia, racism, etc.

Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of something.

Of course, homophobia (racism and chauvinism) infringe upon human rights, so a little bit of hypocrisy towards that type of freedom of speech is not surprising.

And yet, we have to indulge freedom of speech to a certain extent, so what are we to do now? (I have no idea where I'm going with this. I'm totally psyching out on fatigue.)

Try to state your opinions in a more civilized manner. (e.g. Personally, I am not comfortable with the concept of homosexuality. To me, it seems unnatural, but perhaps, that is simply because I cannot relate to it.) <-- See? That ain't so hard.

~Echo.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Quietly weaving,
Tiredly leaving,
Another today,
Again tomorrow
Together dismay,
And raining sorrow.


Le noir, la gloire... On se demande bien.
Mais comm' je t'adore, lorsque je m'endors...
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Old 16-11-2003, 06:42   #2
shizzo shizzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Echoed
Not that I condone homophobia, but I find it very ironic
how, we (I assume), as open-minded people, are intolerant of
something.
Intolerance is a variety of issues - one person can be intolerant
of a certain issues while a majority can tolerate then, and the
opposite can apply to tantamount as many issues. It's more a
pick-and-choose selection than just a placid generalization of
what "intolerance" should encompass. Each person has his/her
own interpretation of what this word entails.

Quote:
Try to state your opinions in a more civilized manner.
Another point where personal interpretation plays a role. The
sarcasm, humor, or other emotions meant to be conveyed
through writing aren't always as evident as the writer would
like them to be. This is something that can be aided with a
careful usage of italics, bold script, et cetera - but still, a person
can't expect everybody to interpret everything that's written
in the exact same way that he/she has.

And from this point, it can be concluded that perhaps a person
might write something in what he/she thinks is a "civilized"
manner but instead be interpreted entirely differently. Jokes
aren't always as obvious via someone else's point of view : a
simple underlying rule of logic. Different mindsets, different
interpretations of what "respect" and "intolerance" and other
somewhat faulty generalizations can/should/might mean. The
middle ground is all you can strive for - if it sounds like it might
be interpreted as offensive, don't post it. The idea of
posting anti-homosexual opinions ought to be dealt with
delicately at a forum like this, where a considerable portion of
the demographic are homosexuals themselves. Opinion or not,
it's a matter of respect. I personally think that Fidget should
have dealt with that situation more carefully and agree
whole-heartedly with how Haku interpreted is, since it
seems like the "default" meaning that most people would have
recognized it for.

But, as said, it's simply a matter of interpretation and striving
for the middle ground. Can't please everybody, but it certainly
couldn't hurt to do your best trying.

// Loki

Last edited by shizzo; 16-11-2003 at 07:01.
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Old 16-11-2003, 06:47   #3
Echoed Echoed is offline
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What Loki said.

Word.

~Echo.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Quietly weaving,
Tiredly leaving,
Another today,
Again tomorrow
Together dismay,
And raining sorrow.


Le noir, la gloire... On se demande bien.
Mais comm' je t'adore, lorsque je m'endors...
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Old 16-11-2003, 06:54   #4
shizzo shizzo is offline
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Word from da gangsta heself, yo.

:: bling bling ::


Last edited by shizzo; 16-11-2003 at 07:00.
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Old 16-11-2003, 07:16   #5
russkayatatu russkayatatu is offline
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haku, there is a quote from William James (an early psychologist with whom Gertrude Stein studied), where he says: "Never reject anything. Nothing has been proved. If you reject anything, that is the beginning of the end of you as an intellectual." Why do you believe that there should be no discrimination between people based on gender, sexual orientation, etc., and dismiss something like homophobia out of hand, without even thinking about it, 'how stupid for someone to believe that'? There are no 'givens' here, after all ... the idea of 'basic human rights' didn't exist 1000 years ago; what makes you so sure today that it's so obvious the question of 'proof' or 'argument' doesn't even enter the picture?

It used to be that races were thought inherently different, some inferior to others; this was a 'given' at one time, in one culture, one society. Today a majority of civilization holds that that people of different races shouldn't be discriminated against, but mammals other than humans can be treated as fundamentally different: at the most basic level that's discrimination based upon species ... maybe one day that sort of discrimination will be treated as contemptuously as discrimination against races is today. What I want to point out is that there are no 'facts' here ... not that all morality is relative, necessarily, but if someone has a different opinion than you, then as long as both are respectful in stating how they think/feel, there should be no need for anyone to feel that the other is the scum of the earth just for holding that opinion ... as long as everything is discussed intelligently and non-offensively, with an open mind and a sense of humor and without taking everything so seriously, then everything's cool. We're all responsible adults here and should be able to discuss things from our different viewpoints... Anyway that's how I see it.

Last edited by russkayatatu; 16-11-2003 at 09:26.
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Old 16-11-2003, 08:18   #6
denial denial is offline
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Well .. there a lots of bad people in this world .. example .. they kill or hurt other people .. and the whole world agreed that this people should be put in jail or terminated. Even since the begining of time.

Should be this way. If we were attacked, we defend then we capture than we terminate.

In my opinion, this is a place for tatu fan no matter what the name of the forum said. Why would someone not tatu fan want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be tatu fan? ..Unless he/she a bad person looking for someone to hurt.



Yeah .. I know I'm not that 'intellectual' type ..but those looks simple to me.

for all tatu fans..

PS. I don't have to ask mod to terminate them. I do it myself. Anyone notice the "Edit Ignore List" in our profile option?

..now its a beautiful place again ..
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Nothing is what it seems
I will effect you
I will protect you
From all the crazy schemes

You traded in your wings
For everything freedom brings

You never left me
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Old 16-11-2003, 08:48   #7
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You know what? This is the first time I don't get a warning for anything! I'm finally starting to behave like I'm maturing. :P

Okay. What I see here is basically the case that homophobia is right when expressed in a polite manner? Well, I'd still be enraged and wanting to beat the homophobic up, but I wouldn't feel such a need of returning the verbal hit.

For example, I was NOT amused by Yulia's breasts being called "pancake boobs". Excuse me? Missy, those are pancakes I'd eat any day. Rawr. However, if she had exposed it a bit more... politely, like, "I do not like Yulia's breasts. There are better shapes somewhere else", I guess I wouldn't have snorted my milk outta my nose. (By the way, given the fact that she's so intolerant, why would she be staring at Yulia's breasts and *asignating* a breakfast course due to their shape? )

I, as many others, do not support the expression of homophobia in ANY fashion or manner or statement. However, I've become used to it because of the open nature of the forum. But THIS, this is an exageration. It is not that an user's ability to express herself should be terminated, but it pisses a lot of people off and I think we all know how pacific the forum was before.
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Old 16-11-2003, 09:55   #8
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darje, some people just don't have a sense of humor.

You are a grown person, right? I am a child, right? I am stubborn, I find it hard to control my words and stuff, yet you creat a thread http://forum.tatysite.net/showthread...&threadid=5969 aiming comments at me. Provoking me to reply. How can I not reply when the thread had my name in it? When it analyses my own words? That is a smart move. Pouring oil into fire, it's called.

Then, when I say that I admit I was wrong, you provoke me again, teasing me "why give up so early etc". Is that a game to you? You find it funny when people dissaprove my opinions?

Then when you twist my words, I say it's disgusting. You twist them yet again, saying that lesbians are disgusting to me, when I didn't say that. Provoking me again. I took me endless amount of self-contol not to reply to you with offensive posts.

Analyse THAT!
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Old 16-11-2003, 12:25   #9
nath nath is offline
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Post 1

Personally, I agree with the posts of QueenBee and Russkayatatu.

Haku, I understand your point of view when you say:
"It's basic human rights. People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion. None of this has to be proved, it's a fact....
Homophobes are wrong, no need to prove it. Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated.
"...
...but the word "discriminated " has here a lot of importance, it's very complexe..

There are rules which are necessary for the safeguard of a Society and which must be respected...
As Russkayatatu said: these rules of the Society depend on time and of the places and they evolve...

But each one has also its own interior aware, its own thoughts... and freedom to think is a right as long as it doesn't harm the others and the society.

So I just want to say , here, let's pay attention , be careful and prudent with the phenomena of FASHION, the phenomena of CROWD (people in group could be taken along towards an idea which was not theirs at the beginning ,very quickly. Because they are feeling of guilty if they don't think "well/good" like the others.).
And it creates a question in my mind : Does it exist a SINGLE way of seeing the good? --> danger of the countries with totalitarianism and dictatorship = one SINGLE way of thinking..

To this phenomenon of FASHION, I will add the idea of HYPOCRISIS... Don't become HYPOCRITE, please....--> "Nobody likes all the world, everybody! ...
If someone likes everyone, it is that one really likes nobody ..."

I acknowledge: I don't like everybody!!!...


Then, let's be very careful with "the words".
It is true that it is intolerable that certain thoughts are publicly told, in public places ....but are we allowed to forbid to those people to have their own ideas, conceptions of life in PRIVACY??

May be what is Right now, in our society, will be WRONG tomorrow in the same society?.

Last edited by nath; 16-11-2003 at 13:31.
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Old 16-11-2003, 12:26   #10
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Post 2

Denial , I don't feel this sentence ."Why would someone A NON-TATU FAN want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be a t.A.T.u fan? - Unless he/she is a BAD PERSON LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO HURT?"

Because there is the big problem of "What is a Tatu Fan?". and we need all together, here, to think about that, because we have all, here, DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOVE TATU, To LOVE Yulia and Lena....

Is there really a BETTER way than another to love or like or appreciate them? - I don't think there is any stereotyped criteria to like them.

For exemple :
I feel, I know what a lot of people, here, think about the relaton between Forre / Tatu... ..
Me , in the REAL LIFE, I heard Forre spoke to me about Lena & Yulia ... and I felt tears come up to my eyes and my throat to tighten itself because I know that she likes them in a very beautiful way, in a way so DEEPLY HUMAN....

... in another way, I completely respect the way in which Xena 225 loves Tatu. I know that she loves them IN A VERY PURE AND SINCERE WAY.... even if it isn't my own concept, I try to understand what she feels ...

...I Love Yulia & Haku have , them, too, another way to love them.

So Tatu Fan, what does it mean really?...

Let's be more prudent and , please, tolerant with this conception!!!...
Personnaly, I'm sure Fidget likes them, in her way...(please....CALM....ok?.... )

So please, let's be very carefull before to announce that one thing is the SINGLE TRUTH.....

Last edited by nath; 16-11-2003 at 13:31.
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Old 16-11-2003, 12:28   #11
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Post3

So please, let's be very carefull before to announce that one thing is the SINGLE TRUTH.

The world , the life aren't so simple: they are complicated, subtle. It isn't Black or White...it's Grey .

I'll give give you 2 exemples...

I./ Haku ..when you say :"People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion "...okay...so...
-->" People shall not be discriminated based on Homosexuality"...
-->But there are societies where Homosexuality is a crime, it is punished by death," in the name of God."
These societies have their own rules ... so .
What do you think about them?

-->a/Are they WRONG? - ->- In this case, you discriminate a kind of society which has its basis built with Religious Rules.
So , you discriminate people about their Religion, you too.

I-->b/ If you think they are WRIGHT , you discriminate people about their sexual preference!!....


II./ In "our small Tatysite society", people speak about freedom , respect of the others..
..but I read on this same forum:
"Yes....Our mods aren't gay..."

So , don't forget you could meet private persons , here, so try to not judge them too quickly, just at the 1rst level and if you say that,
"Yes....Our mods aren't gay..."--> ISN'T IT A SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION?....... Are a person or several persons different because they are STRAIGHT or they are GAYS?... or they are just HUMANS ?.

The border is very thin between freedom and ghetto....

Please, let us not do with the others what we do not want that they make us .



CONCLUSION:
Personnally, I 'm absolutely for a TRUE, non stereotyped, not hypocritical and a free way of thinking... but any community has its rules ... thus each member of it must adjust its speech to the rules of this community. It's only at the condition that the Society lives and survives.

This is why, I think that it is sad that some people don't know, how to find a more mature, more civilized and more social way to express themselves in a community.
It's sad because some of them have a brillant mind, they are very intelligent and they had been warned several times.

We all are responsible because each one provokes and each one answers to the provocation, when we are tired.

Not many people are absolutely " White" or "Saints", here. (me, included)....

But when this behavior of provocation remains, it is dangerous for a a community . As Echo said, it is "the way to tell the things" which is not acceptable, in a such situation.
Such a waste!.....

People are nice on Tatysite and it's REAL, but we have to think to be still better, always!
To grow up is to think about us, to try to be better each day...

Last edited by nath; 16-11-2003 at 13:58.
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Old 16-11-2003, 14:21   #12
la aurora la aurora is offline
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Quote:
I couldn't disagree more. Prove? We have to prove that homophobia is wrong?
It's basic human rights. People shall not be discriminated based on gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, nationality, or religion. None of this has to be proved, it's a fact.
Homophobes are wrong, no need to prove it. Homophobic comments (or racist, or chauvinist) can't be tolerated
haku, nah... U don't HAVE to prove anything. But everyone has his own opinions and believes. If U don't agree, say that U don't. But it doesn't mean U should BAN the person who has different point of view. Humans are complicated creatures. What looks so natural and right to U can be really wrong to another person. I hate liver. Even one thought of it makes me sick. I have my reasons, I have some bad memories about this type of food from my childhood. And at times, when ppl around me enjoy their meal, I can't help having a painful look on my face. It bothers them a lot. But what can I do? There are things that are almost impossible to control. And it doesn't mean I claim that this damn liver is wrong in general and shouldn't exist. It's just impossible for ME to stand. Nothing more, nothing less. And gay relationship is just one of the things ppl can have different feelings to... no matter if they are gay or straight. Trust me, I've seen enough examples of discrimination... and it were straight ppl who were discriminated by homosexual ones at times. There are racists among black ppl, there are discriminators among the minority. We just can't ban and send to jail EVERYONE who has different opinion, everyone who has ideas that go in contra to what seems 'facts' to us. Coz then those pll will have the will to do same with us and soon we'll all meet in jail and continue the fight there. The only difference will be that we'll ALL be in jail. It's life. And this forum is just a part of this life. U can't make all pll in real life think the way U do. Why do U expect to have it here? At the public forum where lots of ppl of different age, gender, sexual orientation and nationality meet?

Well, of course U can ask ppl to behave well, watch their tongue and all. But have to agree with cniaju here. It's VERY hard to see what person really means here. There are just words... no facial expressions, no voice intonation... so, it's just wrong to see the combination of words, decide it was meant to be offensive and start the fight. There are ways to solve the problem without this. I can't believe just one single person can bring chaos to the whole forum. If U think U are mature and someone is immature why not to behave really mature then? What could be easier than saying: "calm down... we don't agree, but we aren't going to start another fight to please U"? Or to take all these comments with the humor? Or just ignore? The fight isn't obligatory if U don't want it. And queenie, this isn't 'ignoring the problem'. This is the way not to cause problem. Coz starting to attack person back isn't the way to solve this problem. Someone can have a bad mood, someone can have different opinion on some subject but it doesn't make this person bad by default. Ignoring will not just keep ur own nerves, but will be good for that angry person as well. If U don't give him/her the reason to defend him/herself, to say all the bad and offensive things he/she wouldn't say in different situation may be... well, then there's no so much damage, ther's no need to appology so much later... Appologizing is hard, it hurts one's pride. And such threads have so many chances to turn to another ugly argument as it's very hard to see U stepped over ur pride and others just aren't ready to try and understand&forgive.

Quote:
I believe if Fidget wants to think lesbian sex is unnatural, fine! Maybe we just look at it the wrong way. She might have meant it from a "scientific" point of view.
Well, she explained it in the thread Forre closed. She said she meant it was 'unnatural' but not 'wrong'. I can't agree with this. 'There are no gay animals' doesn't sound as a prove to me as we are ppl, not just animals. God, nature... whoever gave us the ability to think... ability to make choices. Yeah, gay couples can't have children... yet... but it doesn't mean the human race will dissapear if we let ppl love whoever they want. Straight couples will keep giving birth... besides, we can find other ways to solve this problem. We were given some intellect for that. In few words, I think if God, nature, what or whoever created gay ppl, they are as natural as straight ones. If they were wrong, they wouldn't exist. It's just MY opinion. That's why I don't agree with one I mentioned above. But I still respect it and ready to discuss.

Sorry if anything I said above offended U in any way. I really didn't mean to. I love this place. I love ppl I've met here. But I really don't get why being so tolerant to some, we can't be even half as tolerant to others.

Love. Val.


Edit: Sry, haven't seen ur post, Forre. So, decision was made. Well, mods, guess U had ur reasons. Thank U for taking care of this forum.

Last edited by la aurora; 16-11-2003 at 14:47.
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Old 16-11-2003, 15:48   #13
haku haku is offline
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Quote:
"Never reject anything. Nothing has been proved. If you reject anything, that is the beginning of the end of you as an intellectual." Why do you believe that there should be no discrimination between people based on gender, sexual orientation, etc., and dismiss something like homophobia out of hand, without even thinking about it
I may be finished as an intellectual, but i still have a brain. I'm quite old, and when i was younger i did give a lot of thoughts to the "facts" i've mentioned. I've reached my own convictions on what's right or wrong, i don't try to impose them on anyone, but i'm not used to remain silent either when i don't agree with someone else's.

Being tolerant toward intolerance has always been the main weakness of democracies. One that has caused them to crumble on more than one occasion.

Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ]

Last edited by haku; 16-11-2003 at 15:54.
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Old 16-11-2003, 16:20   #14
nath nath is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by haku
Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
Haku..I've NEVER, NEVER, NEVER thought that about you...
Crois-moi, c'est vrai, Patrick.
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Old 16-11-2003, 16:22   #15
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Quote:
Amazingly, i'm realizing that most people here think that i am the one being intolerant. So i'll say no more and reflect on that.
Then most people must be those who haven't read any of your posts at all.. And I even doubt that.
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Old 16-11-2003, 16:44   #16
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Quote:
... i'm realizing that most people here...
Most?
The "negative" side tends to stand out in comparison to the
side which a person himself/herself takes [which of course,
given that an opinion isn't taken without reason to think it's
the "right" one, can be considered the "positive" side]. But
when numbers themselves are taken into account, there's a
considerable influx of support that's been launched for what
can be [by default] thought of as the "right side". Those in
favor of the views Fidget posted are a minority in this aspect.

But in all honesty, I doubt that most of the people here are
thinking that you're at fault, haku. Perhaps that comment
can be re-worded?



// Loki
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Old 16-11-2003, 17:18   #17
haku haku is offline
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cniaju, my post was certainly not directed at you.
Nath, je te crois. Je sais que tu exprimes toujours sincиrement ce que tu penses et j'essaye moi aussi.
TLFdk, thank you.

Quote:
Perhaps that comment
can be re-worded?
I can at least be more precise. By "here" i meant this thread, not the entire forum. I made this comment after reading everything that had been posted after my post on human rights. I have to admit that i was a little overwhelmed by the number of posts directly addressing me and basically stating that i should be more open to other people's views even if they are discriminatory.

But i stand by my point. Human rights are not something that can be questioned and have to be proved. All humans are equal and have the right to live freely. If not questioning that makes me intellectually dead, so be it.

So much for me saying no more.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ]
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Old 16-11-2003, 17:25   #18
denial denial is offline
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Re: Post 2

Quote:
Originally posted by sunwalk
[b]Denial , I don't feel this sentence ."Why would someone A NON-TATU FAN want to come here and hang around? or pretend to be a t.A.T.u fan? - Unless he/she is a BAD PERSON LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO HURT?"
Nath .. I knew it I will have to face you with this statement ..but please don't be offended .. I wish I could reply earlier but I just can't connect to tatysite today . ..BUT trust me I thought about it.. I thought about it .. really really hard .. before I posted it. So I'll PM you about this. I'm sticking to my opinion.

Quote:
Yes, I agree. But in my opinion it is okay to say bad things about Tatu aswell, as long as you don't go overboard. But I think so about everything in this world. Use common sense! You might disagree or dislike something but that doesn't mean you have to be really rude. Same with Tatu.
Queenbee ..as long as you don't purposely I repeat PURPOSELY hurt anybody feeling. No one here deserve that. I mean NO ONE! If we ever need the moderators ..thats one of the reasons. Do I make myself clear?
~~~~~~~~~~~
I will forget my dreams
Nothing is what it seems
I will effect you
I will protect you
From all the crazy schemes

You traded in your wings
For everything freedom brings

You never left me
You never let me
See what this feeling means
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Old 16-11-2003, 17:47   #19
freddie freddie is offline
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Sorry to cut in the middle of a discussion here, but there ARE gay animals. The cases have been reported with giraffes and zebras. Just goes to show you that homosexuality is part of natures diverseness as well. Not a mistake at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~
freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ]

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Old 16-11-2003, 17:58   #20
QueenBee QueenBee is offline
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haku, I hope you didn't find my post offensive towards you! Because I was only discussing, didn't mean to hurt anyone.. I am sorry..

I agree that humans are worth the same, but they are absolutely NOT the same...
~~~~~~~~~~~
Monika | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ <3 ] [ 11 ]
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