USA - General discussion (Part 2)

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Yes I know that, however the Federal government won't pass a law to make gambling illegal across the entire country at the present time because of the backlash it would recieve from the people.

They've kept George Bush in office. How much backlash can they expect after that? lmao.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

They've kept George Bush in office. How much backlash can they expect after that? lmao.

good point lol I hadn't thought about that.

Did anyone else hear about Bush trying to cockblock congress from subpoenaing interviews from Rove and other top aides under oath in a public session of congress? Bush will apparently let congress interview them, but only under the conditions that it, 1.) not be public 2.)not be under oath and 3.) essentially be completely illegal. Bush has actually threatened to sue congress over it, but taking this matter straight to the supreme court.

Any other Americans find this as hysertical as I do?? The President actually thinks he's above the law. He's just pissing his pants because he knows if Rove is interviewed under oath in the public record... they'll have to lie just to stay in office because the Democrats are out to chop off heads (figuratively speaking of course) and when they lie... they'll still lose their jobs because of perjury What a predicament.

[Talyubittu]

Bush is trying to turn America into his country, it's not about the American people and the American dream of prosperity. It's The Ultimate George W. Bush Quest for Oil & Christianity.

And as ashamed as I am of Bush and his administration. I will never be ashamed of being an American. It's just sad that so many people don't recognize the difference between the public and the government. Because even we - the public don't have control or say in our government anymore .

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

good point lol I hadn't thought about that.

Did anyone else hear about Bush trying to cockblock congress from subpoenaing interviews from Rove and other top aides under oath in a public session of congress? Bush will apparently let congress interview them, but only under the conditions that it, 1.) not be public 2.)not be under oath and 3.) essentially be completely illegal. Bush has actually threatened to sue congress over it, but taking this matter straight to the supreme court.

Any other Americans find this as hysertical as I do?? ...

But didn't he do this with the 9/11 Commission?
They could interview him, but only if he had Dick Cheney by his side, not recorded, no transcripts, and not under oath. If he had it before, I not surprised he'd want it again.

Now included in the big list of victims to friendly fires:
-British soldiers
-Iraqi Soldiers
-Canadian Soldiers
-American Soldier(s)

[Talyubittu]

Police say they've preliminarily identified a gunman who massacred 32 people Monday at Virginia Tech in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, cutting down his victims in two attacks two hours apart before the university could grasp what was happening and get the warning out to students.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not release the name of the dead gunman, adding that the investigation was ongoing, and "we want to get it right."

The Chicago Sun-Times reported Monday night that authorities are investigating whether the gunman was a 24-year-old Chinese man who arrived in the U.S. last year on a student visa issued in Shanghai. Police believe three bomb threats on the campus last week may have been attempts by the man to test the campus' security response, the newspaper reported.

Flinchum also would not confirm whether the gunman, responsible for the bloodbath that left 30 dead in the school's Norris Hall classroom building, was the same person who killed two people — a male and a female — two hours earlier in a dormitory on the other side of the sprawling western Virginia campus.

"We have a preliminary ID, but we're not prepared to release it yet. The investigation is ongoing and we are making progress," Flinchum told reporters Monday night, adding that police had questioned a "person of interest" related to the first shooting, and that person was not the dead gunman.

"They're not the same person," the Flinchum said, referring to the person of interest and the gunman. "We are actively pursing all leads, and this investigation will determine whether they [the shootings] are related or not."

Flinchum refused to dismiss the possibility that a co-conspirator or second shooter was involved.

"I'm not saying there's a gunman on the loose," Flinchum said. Ballistics tests will help explain what happened, he said.

Sheree Mixell, a spokeswoman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said the evidence was being moved to the agency's national lab in Annandale, Va. At least one firearm was turned over, she said.

Mixell would not comment on what types of weapons were used or whether the gunman was a student.

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition. The student newspaper reported that police had sent two guns to the state police crime lab for forensic testing.

In all, the death toll of the two shootings was 33, including the gunman. At least 15 people were wounded, four seriously.

The methodical mass murder forever stamped tragedy on the picturesque campus nestled in the western foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains.

"I'm really at a loss for words to explain or understand the carnage that has visited our campus," Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said.

He also was faced with difficult questions about the university's handling of the emergency and whether it did enough to warn students and protect them after the first burst of gunfire.

Officials defended their actions, with the police chief telling people to "keep in mind that it takes time" to collect all the pieces.

While investigators offered no motive for the attacks, what is known is this:

A gunman opened fire about 7:15 a.m. in the West Ambler Johnston coed dormitory. Virginia Tech and Blacksburg, Va., police were dispatched to the scene and arrived to find the bodies of two people, a male and a female. Based on interviews with residents and witnesses, police identified and questioned a "person of interest." That person was not in custody Monday night, police said.

About two and half hours later, around 9:45 a.m., police received a second 911 call of a shooting at Norris Hall, an Engineering Department classroom building on the other side of the 2,600-acre campus. Officers arriving on the scene found at least two doors chained to prevent the building's occupants from escaping, police said.

Police broke down one door and stormed the building and followed the sounds of the shooting to the second floor when the sounds of gunfire stopped and they found the gunman dead, apparently of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head, Flinchum said.

Thirty-one were killed in Norris Hall, including the gunman. At least 26 people were hurt, some seriously.

"It's probably one of the worst things I've seen in my life," Flinchum said, declining to further describe the scene.

Students in Norris Hall jumped from windows in panic. Young people and faculty members carried out some of the wounded themselves, without waiting for ambulances to arrive. Many found themselves trapped behind the chained and padlocked doors. SWAT team members and FBI agents with helmets, flak jackets and assault rifles swarmed over the campus.

Trey Perkins, who was sitting in a German class in Norris Hall, told The Washington Post that the gunman barged into the room at about 9:50 a.m. and opened fire for about a minute and a half, squeezing off 30 shots in all.

The gunman, Perkins said, first shot the professor in the head and then fired on the students. Perkins said the gunman was about 19 years old and had a "very serious but very calm look on his face."

"Everyone hit the floor at that moment," said Perkins, 20, of Yorktown, Va., a sophomore studying mechanical engineering. "And the shots seemed like it lasted forever."

Erin Sheehan, who also was in the German class, told the student newspaper, the Collegiate Times, said she was one of only four of the approximately two dozen people in the class to walk out of the room. The rest were dead or wounded, she said.

"It seemed so strange," Sheehan said. The gunman "peeked in twice, earlier in the lesson, like he was looking for someone, somebody, before he started shooting. But then we all heard something like drilling in the walls, and someone thought they sounded like bullets. That's when we blockaded the door to stop anyone from coming in."

She said the gunman "was just a normal-looking kid, Asian, but he had on a Boy Scout-type outfit. He wore a tan button-up vest, and this black vest, maybe it was for ammo or something."

"I saw bullets hit people's body," Sheehan said. "There was blood everywhere." She added, "My professor, Herr Bishop, I'm not sure if he's alive."

Kevin Tosh, 20, of Rocky Mount, Va., lives three floors above where the shooting occurred, but he said he said he woke up Monday like he usually does, showering and heading to class around 8:45 a.m. He only noticed something was wrong when he saw about one dozen police cars outside the entrance.

“I was in journalism class and somebody got the e-mail,” Tosh said. He said not too long afterward — about 9:45 a.m. or 10 a.m. — there was another e-mail, this one about the second shooting.

Tosh said he had mixed feelings about the speed of the official response.

“I think [the campus police] had it under control. … I thought they did a good job, but I think they could have done better,” said the sophomore communications major.

Lake Singh and his friend Michael Patrick Stone said they were in their dorms Monday morning when campus police began knocking on doors, making sure that anyone who was inside the dorm was locked in their rooms. Outside Singh’s window, he could see Norris Hall.

Singh, 18, of Burke, Va., said he was eating breakfast when he got the e-mail about the shooting. The sophomore aerospace engineering major said he thought it still could just have been part of the investigation into last week’s campus bomb threats. Then he began to see the police activity.

“Guys with M-16s started running across the drill fields,” Singh said. “That’s when I realized it wasn’t just a bomb threat.”

“It scared me,” he added.

The two said they were able to see body bags being removed from Norris Hall.

“It’s something that I know I’m never going to forget,” said Stone, 20, of Bumpass, Va.

Once they were allowed to leave, Stone and Singh said that campus buildings soon began filling up with armor-clad tactical police officers and buildings were closed down.

Despite the confusion and the chaos, the two said there were supportive of the way university officials handled the situation.

“The university did a wonderful job,” said Stone, a sophomore engineering major. Singh agreed. Stone said he believed there was little anyone could have done. Standing outside The Inn at Virginia Tech and Skelton Conference Center, where reporters were staked out, Stone opened his coat and said anyone could hide weapons to do the damage that was done Monday.

“If he’s motivated to do it, he can do it,” Stone said.

The two students said generally, the campus is safe, and last week’s bomb threats at the time seemed like huge news. Now they were going to be taking stock over the next few days, trying to figure out if they knew any of the victims.

“It’s been a hard day. I just hope nobody I know died,” Singh said.

While Singh and Stone felt campus police did their jobs, other students bitterly complained that there were no public-address announcements on campus after the first shots. Many said the first word from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage — around the time the gunman struck again.

Steger defended the university's handling of the tragedy, saying authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," he said.

Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to notify members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out, he said.

Steger said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms to notify them and sent people to knock on doors to spread the word. Students were warned to stay inside and away from the windows.

"We can only make decisions based on the information you had at the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it," Steger said. He called the massacre a tragedy of "monumental proportions."

Some students and Laura Wedin, a student programs manager at Virginia Tech, said the first notification they got of the shootings came in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m., more than two hours after the first shooting.

The e-mail had few details. It read: "A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating." The message warned students to be cautious and contact police about anything suspicious.

Everett Good, junior, said of the lack of warning: "Someone's head is definitely going to roll over that."

Edmund Henneke, associate dean of engineering, said he was in the classroom building and he and colleagues had just read the e-mail advisory regarding the first shooting and were discussing it when he heard gunfire. He said moments later SWAT team members rushed them downstairs, but the doors were chained and padlocked from the inside. They left the building through a construction area that had not been locked.

Until Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

The massacre Monday took place almost eight years to the day after the Columbine High bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage that took place in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire with a rifle from the 28th-floor observation deck. He killed 16 people before he was shot to death by police.

Founded in 1872, Virginia Tech is nestled in southwestern Virginia, about 160 miles west of Richmond. With more than 25,000 full-time students, it has the state's largest full-time student population. The school is best known for its engineering school and its powerhouse Hokies football team.

The rampage took place on a brisk spring day, with snow flurries swirling around the campus. The campus is centered around the Drill Field, a grassy field where military cadets — who now represent a fraction of the student body — practice. The dorm and the classroom building are on opposites sides of the Drill Field.

A White House spokesman said President Bush was horrified by the rampage and offered his prayers to the victims and the people of Virginia. "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," spokeswoman Dana Perino said

After the shootings, all entrances to the campus were closed, and classes were canceled through Tuesday. The university set up a meeting place for families to reunite with their children. It also made counselors available and planned an assembly for Tuesday at the basketball arena.

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

Last August, the opening day of classes was canceled and the campus closed when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff's deputy involved in the manhunt was killed on a trail just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

Picture
Picture


So sad.

People are sick.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

But didn't he do this with the 9/11 Commission?
They could interview him, but only if he had Dick Cheney by his side, not recorded, no transcripts, and not under oath. If he had it before, I not surprised he'd want it again.

Yes that is true, but he also had the benefit of a completely Republican controlled Congress that bowed down to his every fucking whim. Luckily for us, not for Bush, there is a balance of power again with the Democrats in the Majority in both the House and Senate. This means we actually have our checks and balances back. He's not going to be able to pull the same BS again.

In regards to VTech, a very good friend of mine goes there and I was sooo relieved when she called me and told me she was alright. I think this should serve to show Congress that we need better gun control laws in this country. We don't need a fucking militia anymore, that's what the National Guard is for

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Yes that is true, but he also had the benefit of a completely Republican controlled Congress that bowed down to his every fucking whim. Luckily for us, not for Bush, there is a balance of power again with the Democrats in the Majority in both the House and Senate. This means we actually have our checks and balances back. He's not going to be able to pull the same BS again.

In regards to VTech, a very good friend of mine goes there and I was sooo relieved when she called me and told me she was alright. I think this should serve to show Congress that we need better gun control laws in this country. We don't need a fucking militia anymore, that's what the National Guard is for

What would you propose for better gun control?

[Britney Spears]

OMG What happend at Virginia Tech according to CNN the worst school shooting in U.S. history!!!

I don't understand how people can be that messed up and go do something like that?

If anyone here goes to Virginia Tech I hope you're alright or if anyone knows people that go there the same goes to them.

[QueenBee]

I wonder which hip hop artist/movie they're going to blame now.

Why do these things only happen in the US?

[the unforgiven]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

Why do these things only happen in the US?

second amendment? the NRA? 50 cent feat. Eminem? who knows?

edit : anyway, this story is sick
I wish the shooter wasn't dead so he could rot in jail

[dradeel]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

I wonder which hip hop artist/movie they're going to blame now.

You're all wrong. The goths are to blame. Hehe.

I heard about the school shootings too. I chose to get late for work today to read through the whole article on todays newspaper. What a huge tragedy... it's horrific. 33 dead and some 20 people wounded, aye? I also read the uni was in a quiet country-side enviorment. Noone expected this thing to happen.

I wanna ask the same question as QueenBee; Why do these things only happen in the US?

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

I think this should serve to show Congress that we need better gun control laws in this country.

I don't think it's the "guns" that are the problem. And isn't it so that most of the school shootings so far has happened in states that actually already have big laws for gun control? Don't get me wrong; as a pascifist I'm all against guns, and I'm happy to have grown up in a country where guns aren't usually kept in the home... but you can't blame guns for this. It's not guns killing people, it's people killing people. It's the people you have to change. Look at Canada. Aren't there more guns there per person than in the US? I can't say I've heard of any school shootings there.

I just don't think you can go around and pass laws that limits people and think that will fix the problem. I bet most people that have a gun haven't ever used it for anything bad. Heck, they might've not even used it. But they sure won't like it if you take it away from them. No, I don't think that's the way to attack this problem. And no, I have no answers. This is a complex matter with no quick answers, I'm afraid...

[QueenBee]

Meh, I wouldn't mind if they forbid guns totally. Why do people have guns, anyway? There's no need for them.

[Talyubittu]

Guns we're something that were common back when the constitution was written, it's not as common today. But people won't let it die.

- Bush spoke about this. This is the worst school shooting in the US history. It's so sad So many innocent students.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Canada has actually had several shootings. The earliest and most heinous I can recall was in Montreal when some misogynist shot all the women in his engineering class, I think the number dead was 14. Then there was one out in Alberta, some dude got inspired by Columbine and shot another guy in his high school. And just this past year another guy in Montreal shot a girl in his college-prep school and injured several others.

I think there was a shooting (or a hostage situation?) in Northern Germany last year or the one before last. I specifically remember because it was the first one reported here that occured outside of North America and people there stating that this sort of thing never happens here and all that.

I personally think the authorities seriously fucked this one big time. The guy shot two people, took two hours to go over to another building and shot 30 more. Two fucking hours. Where the hell were the police? Why didn't the school just close down the place, cancel classes and all that? Fucking warning through an email, two hours after knowing two people are dead and the shooter is still on the loose?

Apparently there were warning signs coming from his room mates and some of his profs. It's easier to tell now in hindsight so no one can be blamed prior to the incident, I guess. But during?

Regarding guns, I used to be so anti-gun ownership but now I have completely done a 180 degree turn on this. The only thing that should change is the screening process, obviously don't let people without a clean record own any guns. Having a no-wait period is just ridiculous. Gun store owners could have easily have seen that the guy has had very recent stalking violations on his record and simply prohibited him from having any guns. Sounds a little too easy but surely some scrutiny must be practiced in these transactions.

As for the music to be blame, the guy apparently listened to a lot of Led Zepplin and Collective Soul particulary the song "Shine Down." Led Zepplin finally, the music of "troubled" and "misguided" baby boomers can be blamed for all of this. Ban all Classic Rock stations.

[Talyubittu]

Blaming anything but yourself is completely retarded.

A video game, music, tv is an image of something fake. - You should not act on that impulse.

These things are not to blame if you cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy, and if this is the case, you need to be locked up where you cannot hurt anyone but yourself.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

What would you propose for better gun control?

For starters, did you know that to buy a shotgun all you have to be is 18 and they don't run background checks? You can just walk into a walmart or anyother sporting good store and buy one.

Secondly, I think people with children in their homes should not be allowed to have guns period. Have you ever seen the statistics on the number of children that die every year in this country because of gun related accidents in their homes? It's disgusting.

Thirdly, to hell with the second amendment when it comes to guns and the general population. The whole point of the second amendment was to ensure we would have a standing militia incase the Brits decided to attack us again (which they did in 1812 ). We now have the National Guard and Coast Guard which took the place of our informal militia, so guns owned by ordinary Americans is really totally unnecessary, in my opinion. The law should be changed so that only people with clean criminal records and Military or Police training are allowed to buy and keep pistols and semi-automatics.

I also think at the very least it should be illegal to keep live ammunition in the home and people should have to get licences to buy it. If your going hunting buy the ammunition on your way to the forest and only enough for that hunting session. Of course that would be nearly impossible to enforce.

[Talyubittu]

For starters, did you know that to buy a shotgun all you have to be is 18 and they don't run background checks? You can just walk into a walmart or anyother sporting good store and buy one.

It's not that easy. You cannot just buy a gun in America.

- No one said the 2nd ammendment was perfect nor needed. It was back then and just has not been revamped. And I don't think it should be.


It's not a matter of having a gun, it's how you treat having one and the responisblity that comes with it.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

According to this article however, it is pretty easy to acquire a gun in the States:

As our law stands now, anyone may sell a gun to anyone else; the FFL (Federal Firearms License) is required only of those who do so as a commercial venture. Sellers without an FFL may not buy and sell new guns for retail, but may trade in used guns—without background checks—to their heart's content.

With the exception of not refining the 2nd ammendment, I completely agree with you, Talyubittu.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Blaming anything but yourself is completely retarded.

Offtop:
You do realize I was joking, right?

[freddie]

I think it shouldn't really be turned into a strictly gun-related discussion. The guy was crazy. If he was deprived of the gun he'd shoot his victims with a cross-bow... or better yet a home made explosive device.

Some people are crazy. Period. It's the burden of modern society we need to face. If anything in this vast mass of souls on our planet I'm quite surprised why most are more or less ballanced. I would expect absolute chaos, to be honest. I'm afraid to find out just how many people refrain from doing illegal deeds just because it's punishable by law, rather than because it's innately wrong.

[Talyubittu]

I think it shouldn't really be turned into a strictly gun-related discussion. The guy was crazy. If he was deprived of the gun he'd shoot his victims with a cross-bow... or better yet a home made explosive device.

Thank You!