Lady GaGa

[MalchikGeiBrand]

No one should ever really be "ashamed" of whatever they listen to - it's music and sometimes it's just all in good fun. I love deep, classy, complicatd music, but I also kinda enjoy a really crappy fun song occasionally.

I barely like GaGa's first album; but I have nothing to complain about her otherwise. There are people that actually do enjoy GaGa and take her seriously, and these people are far from what I consider the stereotypical "pop-humping bimbos". I don't like a lot of pop music and I barely pay attention to radio or MTV... but I can't say I don't like GaGa.

I got interested in GaGa a little before she got really famous or "shocking!". I can also kind of relate to her theatrical presence, piano playing and silly "typical theatre kid" personality. I haven't found a personal reason for myself to stay away from her.
She at least has some life-length musical background, so I wouldn't group her with one of the many pop stars who randomly made it big but have no idea what they're doing.

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by convol

Gaga - another poptart that might as well eclipse, popularity wise, the untalented, overrated, copycat prostitute ("Losing my virginity was a career move"-Madonna)? Musically? Rehashed Ace of Base. Good grief. And you aren't even ashamed to get caught listening to this hyped-up commercial MTV nonsense? I'm not exactly a fan of M.I.A., but agree with her when she says that Gaga sounds like 20-year-old Ibiza music. Well, I'm back to Björk.

First of, when we run our mouths - it helps to know what we're running them about.

She was an NYU Art student.
Untalented? - Have you seen the show she's designed? Heard the music she's written? Watched an acoustic performance or actually been to one? - No, I think not.

As far as Rehashed Ace of Base? - Who are you listening to? Because it's certainly not GaGa.

And no, I'm not - because hyped up commercial nonsense is actually the payoff of several years working as a cabaret artist, establishing herself not only in a world of music, but of politics, fashion and charity work as well.

You're obviously fucking clueless

Originally Posted by MalchikGeiBrand

There are people that actually do enjoy GaGa and take her seriously, and these people are far from what I consider the stereotypical "pop-humping bimbos".

Exactly.

[convol]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

First of, when we run our mouths - it helps to know what we're running them about.

I'd prefer if you'd not appeal to supposed emotional arguments, or to an imagined audience's sympathies and imagination. By using this kind of pathos argument, you are not only intellectually dishonest, but you also assume that the recipient of your arguments (arguably not arguments, though) will identify with your emotional state and also share your attachment to the subject matter (or non-matter) at hand. I do not accept this pathetic (yes, this is where the term is derived from: pathos) attempt at argumentation.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

You're obviously fucking clueless

See above. I deal with master's students (mathematics and engineering) every day, and not in the position of a student, might I add. I also have a musical education. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. Just try me by countering my arguments.

You previously mentioned rational thinking yet you do not know what it entails?

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

She was an NYU Art student.

Did she graduate? Oh, wait, I know that. She did not.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Untalented? - Have you seen the show she's designed? Heard the music she's written? Watched an acoustic performance or actually been to one? - No, I think not.

As far as Rehashed Ace of Base? - Who are you listening to? Because it's certainly not GaGa.

Yes, I know that she is able to play the piano; that she is able to sing in tune; that she includes references to pop "culture" in her videos. If this is considered unique, it just shows the sad state of today's Western music business.

I have also watched Gaga's acoustic performances. What regards her acoustic performances; what makes her more talented than the average musical student on your local musical school? As for her popular hits; unfortunately she didn't use the ounce of talent she has for creating something interesting musically that distinguishes her from, i.e. Britney Spears or Aguilera.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

And no, I'm not - because hyped up commercial nonsense is actually the payoff of several years working as a cabaret artist, establishing herself not only in a world of music, but of politics, fashion and charity work as well.

Establishing herself in the world of music? I'd like to read an analysis of her music. Is there anyone somewhat musically inclined who could actually defend her musical "work" without saying "well, it's subjective what you like or do not" or "Gaga is a pop artist; she never claimed to be anything else. She's supposed to be accessible to the masses!", I'd be extremely interested in reading it. Personally I prefer an artist to contribute to music. If you want something else, fine. Fashion, charity, image, whatever. After lyrics like "Let's have some fun, this beat is sick I wanna take a ride on your disco stick" or "Cause I'm bluffin' with my muffin. I'm not lying I'm just stunnin' with my love-glue gunning" (yes, yes, I know that she meant that she's thinking about women when she's having sex with her boyfriend...), I could care less about her so-called-artistry.

Regarding charity, an interview with Zemfira came to mind (here you have a real artist; she actually cares about music, and not only that, she's a celebrity with something as rare as intelligence!):

"I do not want to be a part of some kind of mass rally against violence and terrorism. This is a personal decision. Violence and terrorism: these themes are speculative. They smell of lucrative business. I do not want to be perceived in this context".

[convol]

Originally Posted by Argos

Untalented - no. And she is at least entertaining, something missed widely in America's mainstream popscene nowadays. So it's not a bad thing to have her, regardless of whether she is really original or not.

I was actually referring to Madonna when I said untalented, but I agree with Gaga being entertaining.

Originally Posted by Argos

Well, it is Ibiza music, and what? Hip-hop and r'n'b any better?

Heh, I really have no idea. Do you? I don't listen to these genres, but there must be some talent somewhere?

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by convol

Heh, I really have no idea. Do you? I don't listen to these genres, but there must be some talent somewhere?

So you admit that you know nothing about this particular genre of music? What grounds do you have then to make the claim that GaGa is exactly or a copycat of that genre and not unique? Every musical artist borrows some influence from previous artists; however, that does not mean the newer artist isn't just as original.

[convol]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

So you admit that you know nothing about this particular genre of music? What grounds do you have then to make the claim that GaGa is exactly or a copycat of that genre and not unique? Every musical artist borrows some influence from previous artists; however, that does not mean the newer artist isn't just as original.

Eh? How come noone so far is interested in discussing Gaga's (non-)musicality? I'd rather have less samples of Gaga fans (or perhaps they wish to be referred to as monsters?) being more clueless about music than she is.

Oh never mind, I should have expected it. Let's instead go into "my grounds of criticizing Gaga". I admit that I haven't done any deeper research into Hip-hop and R'n'B, nor that I have any idea whether Ibiza music is better or worse than it as a whole. I have heard my share of all these genres however. The closest thing I had a somewhat appreciatation of with regards to these genres are probably Tricky's collaboration with Gravediggaz, some Public Enemy and Wu-Tang Clan. I haven't actively shielded myself from what's been playing on the radio for the past twenty years or so, hence even about genres I don't particularly care for I know a thing or two about.

I didn't say that Gaga is a copycat; I said Madonna were; nor did I say that you can't be influenced from what's come before and still be a great musician and artist. However, personally I wouldn't consider Gaga to be a great musician, artist, lyricist or even intelligent.

If you want to make a musical analysis on Gaga I'd be thrilled to read it!

[Talyubittu]

I didn't say that Gaga is a copycat; I said Madonna were; nor did I say that you can't be influenced from what's come before and still be a great musician and artist. However, personally I wouldn't consider Gaga to be a great musician, artist, lyricist or even intelligent.

If you want to make a musical analysis on Gaga I'd be thrilled to read it!

The fact that she didn't graduate has nothing to do with anything? - I'm sorry, but in the case of talent vs. education - I select talent. Anybody can learn to be a musician, but very few can just do it. For someone with a decent musical education and background in the pop art/happenings world I'd say she's established herself pretty well as an artist. Yes, an artist. If you want to discuss her artistry further, let em point out that to cohesively develop and manage technology, fashion, music, and countless other themes into a single massive show that you have never even attended does require a bit more application than that of Zemfira, who you proclaim to be a great musician. The films, interludes, plot - staging, choreography - all of it is a cohesive theatrical production that takes place in the world. Lowbrow pop re surges. People called Warhol's work garbage, trash and didn't appreciate it - and now he's hailed as the greatest pop artist of all time. - Which is exactly the type of commentary you're providing for GaGa despite the massive cult following and mass hysteria that follows her every move and piece of work that she does. And I'm sorry for the critics that dislike her work, but at the end of the day - they're still pinching pennies while she's spending thousands and thousands of dollars to perform a show featuring the music they all hate, which she believes in and comes from her heart. And not only that, but leaves her fans with something you could never understand in your current state of mind. Something more tangible than steel. If you cannot comprehend that as artistry, then you have no fucking idea what artistry is. Passion is more important than your meaningless critique of her, or your meaningless weighing of the scales between her and other musicians. At the end of the day, you're still busy discrediting her while she bleeds in front of twenty thousand people at her sold out shows that the world has attend and been publicly and critically acclaimed as a piece of contemporary musical history. Lady GaGa did not get to where she is because of MTV or any other mass media outlet - if you really want to debate that, then by all means, lets do so. Because I've been prepared for this argument for ages.

Also

"I do not want to be a part of some kind of mass rally against violence and terrorism. This is a personal decision. Violence and terrorism: these themes are speculative. They smell of lucrative business. I do not want to be perceived in this context".

I'm not sure what your point is with this? If you're going to defend her argument with "it's a personal decision" - then let me defend GaGa's position on what are neither terrorism nor violence and end with a "it's a personal decision whether you wish to publicly share your opinion with others." - The fact that Zemfira doesn't want to be associated with that type of setting has nothing to do with a personal choice GaGa makes. You're obviously not in tune with GaGa at all, because at best your weak argument comes from your skimming of wikipedia articles or other random interviews when you simply cannot base a criticism of her on that kind of bullshit research.

[Khartoun2004]

Convol I'd be happy to give an analysis of Gaga's music.

Most techno-ish music follows a similar beat pattern... It's built in layers. Every 16 beats a new layer is added or an old one subtracted; provided there is no vocal track. If there is a vocal track the change happens every 8 beats. Some musicians or DJs like expanding this model pattern to 32 beats and 16 beats respectively. It's dance music, it's easier to choreograph a dance to music that has the 8 count style most modern dancers prefer to use. This generally accounts for the repetitiveness in the broader techno genres and in some hip hop/club music.

Gaga for the most part follows this pattern, with a bit of a twist. I recommend listening to her music with decent quality, noise canceling headphones... Preferably studio quality or inner ear buds. On the surface you'll hear that 16/8 pattern in the bass and in some cases the percussion... However, you'll find that her synth work rarely follows this pattern. She's a classically trained pianist. Her synth patterns range in style from pop, techno, classical, rock, ect. It's diverse and alive. She often hybrids multiple styles together in one song, masterfully. You don't notice she's done it, unless you really dig in and analysis each part individually.

This mix and match is part of the reason that she's so popular. Most people can find at least one song by her that they like; or at least tolerate. If you talk to Gaga fans, you'll find that while they all like the same songs, but for very different reasons. She's exceedingly universal for an artist that is primarily categorized in the techno/dance genre.

She transitions between different key signatures seamlessly... It's almost like you don't realize you just went from a major to a minor until she's switching back to a major key... which may or may not be the key she started in. That is undeniable music writing skills. Also the fact that she uses a key other than C at all, is a huge improvement on the Pop music scene in general.

Her lyrics on the surface are extremely superficial, that's what sells pop music. However, upon further examination, it's littered with pop culture references, social commentary and tributes to her influences. She mocks the American obsession with fame, famous people and wealth. She can also sit in an interview and outline exactly what her reasons where for writing what she has... Not many artists (pop artists) can do that, most of them don't write their own lyrics, let alone music... Actually that's probably because she wrote it for them. *glares at Britney Spears* ...

But it's 3am and I have a physics class at 9am. To be continued...

[Argos]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Most techno-ish music follows a similar beat pattern...

Thanks, Alexander, for your academic definition of the most sophisticated music style in history of humankind (apart from hip-hop, of course, which doesn't even have music at all ). Ashes on my head that I never valued this cultural highlight!

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

I recommend listening to her music with decent quality, noise canceling headphones...

Although I like some songs of Gaga, but after 4 or 5 songs my needs for more are definitely gone. No deeper wish for an in depth analysis of her oeuvre, but I admire your endurance.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Her synth patterns range in style from pop, techno, classical, rock, ect. It's diverse and alive. She often hybrids multiple styles together in one song...
...This mix and match is part of the reason that she's so popular. Most people can find at least one song by her that they like

The cook pours mustard, ketchup, worcester, mayo, soy- and mintsauce over the coq au vin and says "Now most people find something they like in my meal." In our culture of total tastelessness it works. Great for Gagas. Two decades ago she would have failed.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

It's almost like you don't realize you just went from a major to a minor until she's switching back to a major key...

The day I can't distinguish major from minor key, I'll throw away my ears and try getting new ones.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

... the fact that she uses a key other than C at all, is a huge improvement on the Pop music scene in general.

Eh what? Pop music must have declined far down, if that's a merit, something which children learn in our elementary schools, to sing in different keys.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Her lyrics on the surface are extremely superficial, that's what sells pop music.

Big no. What sells is memorability, no matter whether it's superficial, thoughtful or whatever.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

However, upon further examination,... She mocks the American ...

That was my first impression, and it has not changed.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

She can also sit in an interview and outline exactly what her reasons where for writing what she has... Not many artists (pop artists) can do that...

Not many are even asked...

[Endri]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Watched an acoustic performance or actually been to one?

She should stop doing it. It's like the same melody, some basic piano tunes, and the lyrics of one of her popular songs. Everybody can do that, and it's l.a.m.e.

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Argos

Thanks, Alexander, for your academic definition of the most sophisticated music style in history of humankind (apart from hip-hop, of course, which doesn't even have music at all ). Ashes on my head that I never valued this cultural highlight!

Although I like some songs of Gaga, but after 4 or 5 songs my needs for more are definitely gone. No deeper wish for an in depth analysis of her oeuvre, but I admire your endurance.

The cook pours mustard, ketchup, worcester, mayo, soy- and mintsauce over the coq au vin and says "Now most people find something they like in my meal." In our culture of total tastelessness it works. Great for Gagas. Two decades ago she would have failed.

The day I can't distinguish major from minor key, I'll throw away my ears and try getting new ones.

Eh what? Pop music must have declined far down, if that's a merit, something which children learn in our elementary schools, to sing in different keys.

Big no. What sells is memorability, no matter whether it's superficial, thoughtful or whatever.
That was my first impression, and it has not changed.

Not many are even asked...

I first off dislike the fact that you blatantly begin your response with a criticism of electronic music and R&B as well - which while you may not prefer them, are a music worthy of recognition - all music is. You can believe what you want about GaGa, but until you actually attempt to understand her instead of looking at her as a product, you'll never get it.

NoiseVox
NoiseVox

If you watch those and still think what you currently do, then I don't know what you want. Go to her show. You'll change your mind.

No, everybody cannot do that. Furthermore, before you call something lame - perhaps you should actually reference the acoustic music I'm talking about. Her voice shows that she can sing, and her piano skills are more than decent so like I said - NO, everybody cannot do that. You look like an idiot when you say "it's the same basic melody" - because it's obviously an acoustic rendition of a pop song. Duh. Had the song originally been released in acoustic format ones opinion would probably be different. That's the beautiful thing about her music - she changes it constantly. It can be a piano ballad or an in your face electro anthem. The only thing lame here is your idiotic rambling.

Paparazzi
Poker Face

[Argos]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

I first off dislike the fact that you blatantly begin your response with a criticism of electronic music and R&B as well

Clear miss. Electronic music is not per se nx8 beat um-tsa with just little variation, as well as r'n'b, although there is a lot of that kind in contemporary 'mainstream' r'n'b.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

You can believe what you want about GaGa, but until you actually attempt to understand her instead of looking at her as a product, you'll never get it.

First off - other parts of the world don't get most of her references to American culture or what ever she tries to express, simply because the Big Wheat Acre is not the navel of the world. Her message is missed, and nobody out there cares really much about a deeper meaning. They hear her proll lyrics, learn that she puts a fake pimmel into her pants to cause stirr-up and put her into a box.

The same goes for the music itself. We hear the radio singles, see the videos, and that's it. Europeans in particular have a far greater 'contact' to techno-dance, and what they hear, reminds them 'Ballermann 6'. (As explanation: the direct translation would be 'bangman'- pff. At the south beach of Mallorca there are about 15 balnearios - beach taverns, the most notorious, the number 6, where mostly German tourists stop by. They drink bear and sangria out of tin buckets and behave like animals. Maybe your Spring Breaks are a little bit similar to this 'tradition'. Well, at these meeting points of intellectual cultural exchange this kind of dance music is very popular.)

You see that under these circumstances Gaga's music doesn't have an easy go, especially among the musically educated people. Gaga may be of high value for Americans (I won't sacrifice a minute to prove whether it is so or not), but she is definitely not on the other side of the Big Pond. Your worshipping her as the Messias of modern entertainment music is not at all understandable for non-Americans.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

If you watch those and still think what you currently do, then I don't know what you want. Go to her show. You'll change your mind.

You misunderstood completely, by the way. Neither do I deny her value as artist, nor do I belittle her role in the music scene. (See some comment of mine some posts above!) I like to listen to some of her songs from time to time, but I'm not into that kind of music. I was just amused how seriously techno-dance music was reasoned.

Finally: no reason to call people idiots, just because they don't share your opinions.

[convol]

Originally Posted by Argos

The day I can't distinguish major from minor key, I'll throw away my ears and try getting new ones. .

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

... the fact that she uses a key other than C at all, is a huge improvement on the Pop music scene in general.

Originally Posted by Argos

Eh what? Pop music must have declined far down, if that's a merit, something which children learn in our elementary schools, to sing in different keys.

Oh My God. This had me literally howling with laughter. Classic!

Well, anyway thanks Khartoun2004 for putting an effort! (I say this without sarcasm)

[convol]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

The fact that she didn't graduate has nothing to do with anything? - I'm sorry, but in the case of talent vs. education - I select talent.

So do I. You were the one to bring up that she was an NYU Art student.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Anybody can learn to be a musician, but very few can just do it. For someone with a decent musical education and background in the pop art/happenings world I'd say she's established herself pretty well as an artist. Yes, an artist. If you want to discuss her artistry further, let em point out that to cohesively develop and manage technology, fashion, music, and countless other themes into a single massive show that you have never even attended does require a bit more application than that of Zemfira, who you proclaim to be a great musician. The films, interludes, plot - staging, choreography - all of it is a cohesive theatrical production that takes place in the world.

Would you also say that Britney Spears and Madonna are more artistic than Björk, because the former characters have a massive show? How about this perspective: without the typical oversexualized image, Gaga's derivative fashion and having a show, not even teenage girls would care about Gaga's sugarcoated bubblegum music. Oh wait... is that why we have Gaga and not Germanotta?

Yep, I consider Zemfira a highly accomplished musician (perhaps that's why Patti Smith knelt before her after their duet at the festival in Kazan in '08?), Björk is pushing the boundaries of musical experimentation in a pop context, Kate Bush was a musical pioneer, Russian singer Pelageya has an amazing voice, Russian folk singer Inna Zhelannaya made a name for herself internationally before Tatu did (although in ethnic circles) and jams with Trey Gunn from King Crimson, Zhanna Aguzarova, well, how about you check her out yourself? I could continue but it's OT and I'd be happy to go into discussing any of these artists elsewhere on this board. All of them are infinitely more talented than Gaga could ever hope to be.

Apparently "I'm not in tune with Lady Gaga at all", but from my point of view Gaga, having musical talent or not, music has finally been completely eclipsed by a persona based on regurgitated ideas, repackaged like a fast food meal. Not surprisingly Gaga keeps mentioning Warhol in the hope of attaining a semblence of credibility. Furthermore, there is the often encountered pseudo-intellectual meta-layer to explain away that Gaga's music would sit perfectly in between generic Eurovision songs, i.e. Gaga is actually making a comment on the notions of fame and artificiality by fully embodying these ideas herself. In other words, if this proposition is true, would this mean that Gaga doesn't even have a very high opinion of her own work, but despite caring about her fans so much she is fine with a lot of people being gullible enough to buy into it?

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

And I'm sorry for the critics that dislike her work, but at the end of the day - they're still pinching pennies while she's spending thousands and thousands of dollars to perform a show featuring the music they all hate, which she believes in and comes from her heart. And not only that, but leaves her fans with something you could never understand in your current state of mind. Something more tangible than steel. If you cannot comprehend that as artistry, then you have no fucking idea what artistry is. Passion is more important than your meaningless critique of her, or your meaningless weighing of the scales between her and other musicians. At the end of the day, you're still busy discrediting her while she bleeds in front of twenty thousand people at her sold out shows that the world has attend and been publicly and critically acclaimed as a piece of contemporary musical history.

Even you must know that fame rarely corresponds to talent. Money, record companies, promotion, image etc. do however. Don't you think teenage girls experienced the same rush when they went to Spice Girls concerts? Then you go into personal insults, but that's hardly surprising. I was expecting it. I find your posts entertaining, even more so than Gaga herself. This is the reason I'm discussing (or "meaningless weighing of the scales between her and other musicians") with you; certainly not because I hate Gaga.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Lady GaGa did not get to where she is because of MTV or any other mass media outlet - if you really want to debate that, then by all means, lets do so. Because I've been prepared for this argument for ages.

Sounds serious . I wish I could debate, it would be fun, but unfortunately I stopped watching MTV more than five years ago. Although if you are saying that mass media didn't play a role in Gaga achieving fame, I'd be thrilled to read your arguments.

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

I'm not sure what your point is with this? If you're going to defend her argument with "it's a personal decision" - then let me defend GaGa's position on what are neither terrorism nor violence and end with a "it's a personal decision whether you wish to publicly share your opinion with others." - The fact that Zemfira doesn't want to be associated with that type of setting has nothing to do with a personal choice GaGa makes. You're obviously not in tune with GaGa at all, because at best your weak argument comes from your skimming of wikipedia articles or other random interviews when you simply cannot base a criticism of her on that kind of bullshit research.

"Weak argument", "bullshit research" (I even saw the video where Paris Hilton and Gaga have a chat - hilarious stuff) - surely, your being completely in tune with Gaga doesn't overcloud your judgement? Re. the quote: nope, that's not the reason I included it. A few hints: political correctness, playing the media game, delusional pop stars considering themselves gurus and equating fame with insight.

[Talyubittu]

So do I. You were the one to bring up that she was an NYU Art student.

Yes...she was? What is your point? I said nothing about her graduating. You did.

Would you also say that Britney Spears and Madonna are more artistic than Björk, because the former characters have a massive show? How about this perspective: without the typical oversexualized image, Gaga's derivative fashion and having a show, not even teenage girls would care about Gaga's sugarcoated bubblegum music. Oh wait... is that why we have Gaga and not Germanotta?

Wrong. You are choosing to ignore bits of information that only discredit your own argument - if you were obviously prepared for this discussion, you wouldn't even have tethered into this topic. If you would have previously read and researched what I've said you'd find that:

1. Britney Spears: Does not design her own show.
2. Madonna: Does not design her own show.
3. GaGa: Designs her own show, directs the art and all other aspects for the show as well as performs a non-stop two hour and ten minute set list live nearly every night - sometimes twice in the same night.

And I'm sorry, but who are you? - Perhaps you should reference the creative agenda for her show. The list of designers is quite extensive - and if you consider the work of various renowned designers to be an "overly sexualized image" - I don't feel I need to discuss anything further with you because no disrespect meant, I would rather discuss something with someone who appreciates and attempts to understand the art of couture. And I'm sorry, but if you're saying that her music alone isn't enough to float without the backing of a show then you're quite mistaken. Not everyone goes to her show, and not everyone follows her closely. But despite what you think, her "sugar-coated-bubblegum music" is as entitled to it's part of the world of music just as much as any other genre that you yourself would defend. Not being your cup of tea has nothing to do with the discussion. I find it hilarious that you quote perhaps the shallowest of all her lyrics and use them as a mass representation of the work she does despite not listing any others worthy of recognition as well.

Yep, I consider Zemfira a highly accomplished musician (perhaps that's why Patti Smith knelt before her after their duet at the festival in Kazan in '08?), Björk is pushing the boundaries of musical experimentation in a pop context, Kate Bush was a musical pioneer, Russian singer Pelageya has an amazing voice, Russian folk singer Inna Zhelannaya made a name for herself internationally before Tatu did (although in ethnic circles) and jams with Trey Gunn from King Crimson, Zhanna Aguzarova, well, how about you check her out yourself? I could continue but it's OT and I'd be happy to go into discussing any of these artists elsewhere on this board. All of them are infinitely more talented than Gaga could ever hope to be.

If we're going to start crediting artists on artistic ability based on their collaborative efforts then let's talk about GaGa with Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Shirley Bassey, Debbie Harry, countless other performance artists and visual artists as well. Performing for the Queen, being introduced by Obama, being invited to speak at the National Equality March - the list goes on. And if you're going to argue Björk pushing the boundaries of musical experimentation in a pop context, I think you should reference the fact that Bad Romance was one of the most successful singles ever and an almost completely industrial track in composition. Industrial music in a pop song - not in America. Also, GaGa's type of dance music was not present in American pop culture at a mass that it is now. The evolution of what electroclash used to be and now is would definitely be something that I would partially credit to GaGa. That's two for two parallel's so far as to why you consider others great musicians. Shall we continue? - Pelageya, while an artist that you may enjoy - is definitely not someone that I would listen to. I do not enjoy her voice. And, if on the off chance that you do not believe that I know who she is - please, Argos feel free to step in at this point - because I'm sure after years and years of discussion on this forum you can thoroughly defend my ties to the Russian music scene. Discussion Inna Zhelannaya - relating to this, GaGa was profoundly famous throughout the world before her album had even been released in some countries. The U.K. in particular, where she played sold out club venues. I'd say she deserves just as much recognition as you give various other artists for accomplishing the same things.

Apparently "I'm not in tune with Lady Gaga at all", but from my point of view Gaga, having musical talent or not, music has finally been completely eclipsed by a persona based on regurgitated ideas, repackaged like a fast food meal. Not surprisingly Gaga keeps mentioning Warhol in the hope of attaining a semblence of credibility. Furthermore, there is the often encountered pseudo-intellectual meta-layer to explain away that Gaga's music would sit perfectly in between generic Eurovision songs, i.e. Gaga is actually making a comment on the notions of fame and artificiality by fully embodying these ideas herself. In other words, if this proposition is true, would this mean that Gaga doesn't even have a very high opinion of her own work, but despite caring about her fans so much she is fine with a lot of people being gullible enough to buy into it?

As a fan, there are certain elements I do not expect you to understand because for those of us that know in our hearts what she is, who she is and what she stands for speaks more loudly to us than you could ever hope to. It may seem cheap to you, but it's something many of us hold on to dearly. Second, the fact that you reference her referencing Warhol only goes to show the superficial hold you have on even basic knowledge of her. It's obvious to me when you have not done your research! The numerous others that she has credited or cited as inspiration flows way beyond this. For example, Rainer Rilke and David Bowie, both of whom she cited as inspirations in her high school year book - long before GaGa was even a thought. It's comical to watch you make a stab at her and Warhol with a comment like "hope of attaining a semblance of credibility" when you yourself are in fact using Warhol against her for your own purpose of attaining a semblance of credibility. If you'd like, please research more artists/philosophers and writers that she had made reference to pre GaGa. Since you seem to think that it's a sham. Another point to make is the fact that you use the word "fame" to represent what is actually GaGa's notion of a concept called "The Fame" - the entire concept of her first album. The two are separate. I'm not waiting my time attempting to explain them to you. Maybe you'll do more than watch a clip on YouTube or skim an interview before you reply next time. Because you obviously the lack of what I would consider basic information about her as I've just pointed out.

Even you must know that fame rarely corresponds to talent. Money, record companies, promotion, image etc. do however. Don't you think teenage girls experienced the same rush when they went to Spice Girls concerts? Then you go into personal insults, but that's hardly surprising. I was expecting it. I find your posts entertaining, even more so than Gaga herself. This is the reason I'm discussing (or "meaningless weighing of the scales between her and other musicians") with you; certainly not because I hate Gaga.

I'm sorry. But lets look at GaGa's career, and her accomplishments and compare that to other artists who do only have money, record companies, promotion and imaging to credit to their success. Madonna is huge. Britney is huge. Christina is huge. And it took what, nearly three or four albums and years of work to accomplish with their aid? GaGa is selling out at the same arenas with shows she designed, touring more extensively than these artists while recording music at the same time, holding number one spots in charts and creating a name for herself in the music world, the fashion world and the world of politics. And she's only released one and a half albums. You may not like her, but you cannot deny that she is where she is because of music she wrote and the hard work behind it and that is talent.

And I'm sorry, but when I hold a discussion - it's because I believe I have something to share. Not because of an immature desire to be entertained.

I wish I could debate, it would be fun, but unfortunately I stopped watching MTV more than five years ago. Although if you are saying that mass media didn't play a role in Gaga achieving fame, I'd be thrilled to read your arguments.

Done.

[dradeel]

Hmmm... I'm just thinking... People should be able to admit that the artists you love may not be as talented artists as you think. I'm not saying Lady GaGa isn't truly talented, cause clearly she has an abundance of talent, but what kinda talent?

I cannot discuss her musicianship, as I lack both the ability and opinion to do so. What is clear, however, and I what would say, is that Lady GaGa is an amazing business woman, and crediting all her hard work to being talented may only explain her abilities as a talented business woman that truly knows how to sell herself extremely well. That does not necessarily mean she's a good musician and/or artist by objective evaluation of her actual products. Her being an excellent business woman might actually hide the fact that she's a bad musician or artist. I'm not saying she IS a bad artists, but I'm rather just wondering if anyone here would be so humble to think of this as a possibility to their adoration or critique of her, and if you'd willingly admit to it if this were to be the case?

After all, there's nothing wrong with enjoying poor musicianship. There are a lot of people that love mainstream punk music of the past 15 years for instance Taste will always be taste.

As for my subjective view of her and her music, all I can say is that I find Paparazzi quite catchy and okay to listen to, and fun to sing as well, but I have no interest for her beyond that point. She's unattractive and plays quite straight forward mainstream music that gives me little pleasure, but I'm glad many people are getting pleasure from her works. At least it justifies her riches

[taty994945]

Originally Posted by dradeel

but what kinda talent?

A talent for acting like a whore, haha. Bad Romance is an ok song (although she sounds like a fucking idiot when she sings Ra Ra-ah-ah-ah. Roma Roma-ma GaGa Oh la-la). I think her fans can be annoying. Take Talyubittu for instance. I mean, that guy has his tongue up her ass I think, you know, the whole time when you actually listen to him talk about Lady Gaga. Sometimes makes me sick almost, it's unbelievable.

[fanoff]

I'm not a fan of her but I listen to her music now and then. So I love mainstream pop She will be a classic and an example to tell how 2010s music was.

[sakuya]

Originally Posted by taty994945

A talent for acting like a whore, haha. Bad Romance is an ok song (although she sounds like a fucking idiot when she sings Ra Ra-ah-ah-ah. Roma Roma-ma GaGa Oh la-la). I think her fans can be annoying. Take Talyubittu for instance. I mean, that guy has his tongue up her ass I think, you know, the whole time when you actually listen to him talk about Lady Gaga. Sometimes makes me sick almost, it's unbelievable.

I can even predict whatcertain smn will answer to your post
"bla bla gaga bla bla creative you bla bla cant understand bla bla insult bla bla gaga"

[Talyubittu]

I've said my piece. I'd rather have my tongue up the ass of someone who I believe is talented. I can't force you to agree with me, just present my opinion and maybe hope to sway yours.