Iraq - General discussion

[Rachel]

The head of the British army has defended his comments that UK troops "exacerbate" security problems in Iraq and should withdraw "sometime soon".


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I am disgusted by this

[haku]

Originally Posted by nath

Do you call that Resistance?

I call that a tragedy. One which could have been avoided.

Most of those people would still be alive if the country had not been invaded, and i don't think that 600,000 dead is a fair price to pay to remove a dictator (or even to avenge the 3,000 dead of the WTC attack). If the US really had to remove the Iraqi regime, they should have come up with a much better plan.

And they can't say that they "didn't know". Everybody who knew the region and Iraq in particular had warned the Americans that the country would break into civil war, the scenario we're seeing today was described in details to them back in 2002 (even by the British) when they were starting to plan the invasion, they were warned.
If you're going to invade a country made up of several rival ethnic groups which is only held together by a dictatorial regime, you *must* have a well prepared post-war plan to avoid anarchy. The US had none.

Now, the partition of Iraq in 3 parts seem to be the only exit to the current situation, but even the partition will raise new problems.

The Shia part will have most of the petrol resources, and will be a satellite of Iran.

The Sunni part won't have any resources at all, and since the Sunnis were the ones in power before the invasion, they will continue to be quite angry with the new situation, i don't see them stopping violence anytime soon. Plus, there isn't much difference between Iraqi Sunnis and Syrian Sunnis, so Syria will control more or less the Sunni part, Syria may even be tempted by an annexation after the Americans are gone.

The Kurdish part will have significant resources (and therefore money) which will be seen as a threat by Turkey, and possibly Iran. Both countries include a part of Kurdistan and the independance of the Iraqi part will be seen as a possible first step toward a full independant Kurdistan. If Turkey feels really threatened (and it doesn't take much for Turkey to feel threatened), it may very well invade the Kurdish part in a preemptive strike (the excuse would be to "protect" the Turkomans, Turk-related people embedded in Iraqi Kurdish territory, Turkey has already mentioned how they were "oppresed" to prepare the road for a possible invasion).

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by haku

Now, the partition of Iraq in 3 parts seem to be the only exit to the current situation, but even the partition will raise new problems.

Haku, for once we agree. However, I was talking to my brother about it a couple weeks ago when he was home, and he said while splitting the country in three may solve the problem, it's easier said than done. A few US Senators have been proponates of that idea since the end of "major" Combat, yet have been unable to think of a way to accomplish it. It would mean more US and international involvement, which most people are against. We're trying to get out of Iraq, not stay there longer.

If they split the country into three seperate countries, what would you do with the kurd's left in the Shite part? Uproot them? Don't you think that would cause more animosity?

[haku]

he said while splitting the country in three may solve the problem, it's easier said than done.

Oh i agree, it's going to be a slow process and many people are going to die in the mixed and disputed areas. But Iraq has recently passed a law which is a first step toward a federation of autonomous regions, so i would say that the partition process is now on its way. Iraq will probably slowly disintegrate like Yugoslavia.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

If they split the country into three seperate countries, what would you do with the kurd's left in the Shite part? Uproot them? Don't you think that would cause more animosity?

Well, ethnic cleansing is actively going on right now in Iraq, Shias are targetted in the Sunni part, Sunnis are targetted in the Kurdish and Shia parts, i'm suspecting that by the time those autonomous regions are created, most minorities will already have moved or 'be removed'. Which part goes to which autonomous region will be decided by referendum on a province by province basis next year, so of course in the meantime each majority group is going to eliminate as many minorities as they can from the provinces they control to have a clear win in the referendums. The coming months are not going to be pretty.

[marina]

Shiites , Sunni .

Can anyone tell me please on which part of their religion these two disagree and why they at each other's throats ? It's not like Quran was written yesterday , do they hate the guts of each other's for centuries ?? So much for peaceful religion...

[haku]

Originally Posted by marina

Can anyone tell me please on which part of their religion these two disagree and why they at each other's throats ?

This article explains things concisely.

[haku]

Saddam Hussein sentenced to death by hanging

[xmad]

He made a mistake by not killing himself.

[haku]

Originally Posted by xmad

He made a mistake by not killing himself.

I don't think so, he knows what he's doing.

For the Iraqi insurgency, he will become a martyr executed by Americans and their Iraqi collaborators, a powerful symbol to continue the fight against the occupation.

[QueenBee]

I heard about it on the news, but like haku said, this will only bring him closer to god... Not like he did anything wrong!

He made a mistake by not killing himself.

I thought you aren't allowed to commit suicide if you're a "real" muslim? Obviously he would never break this rule! So he gets the enemies to kill him.

[freddie]

He was far from a "real" muslim. Infact Iraq under his reign was surprisingly secular incognito - that's actually the only way to rule such a country with an iron fist I reckon.

About his sentence. Nothing special. He means nothing in international politics these days. He's just a symbol of things past. I'm against capital punishment in general, even in such extreme cases where we're dealing with a tyrant/mass-murderer. No one should be eligable to take one's life unless it's consenting euthanasia.

Will he become a martyr for insurgents? Probably. But honestlly... they don't need any more martyrs. Extreme Islamic fundamentalists have perfected the art of goading people into doing things. They don't need more martyrs. And if they needed some they'd just make them up.

Offtop:
Queenie your "location" is soooo distracting.

[QueenBee]

He was far from a "real" muslim.

I think he was, in the eyes of those who worshipped him... just like any other suicide bomber, for example. Even though they are not doing the right thing according to islam. Argh difficult to explain what I mean!

Offtop:

Queenie your "location" is soooo distracting.

Lol, you have no idea how many comments I've gotten for my location, it's so great

[haku]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

Not like he did anything wrong!

Oh, he is undoubtedly guilty of many crimes, and i would have wholeheartedly supported the verdict if it had been life in prison, but death penalty is abhorrent and i am absolutely against it no matter who is to be executed, and hanging is a particularly vile and humiliating form of execution

Originally Posted by QueenBee

I thought you aren't allowed to commit suicide if you're a "real" muslim? Obviously he would never break this rule! So he gets the enemies to kill him.

Saddam Hussein is going to end up as an Islamic martyr but ironically he started his career as more or less a communist revolutionary. The Baath party is essentially Stalinist and when it seized power, it made of Iraq a secular country with no official mention of Islam anywhere.

[QueenBee]

You are good people...
I too am against death penalty but not because it is cruel, but because I don't think it is a punishment.

[Khartoun2004]

I agree with Haku, Capital Punishment is wrong in any case. I also think it's abhorrant that they are only giving him 30 days for an appeal. Even in fucking Texas, where they are known for killing first and asking questions later, an inmate on Death row has minimum 2 years to get the first appeal and there's more than one, I believe they get 3 but don't quote me. No matter it's still wrong and soooo middle ages. Especially a hanging, there's no reason to torture a person before you murder them.

I'm afraid that Suddam's execution will solidify the insurgence and make it impossible to fix Bush's fuck up's in Iraq. Tis' a sad day in the world today.

[nath]

I'm too a little disturbed by this Death Penalty just because he won't never realize the amount of horrible murders he has ordered.

Now about "hanging"....I'm a little surprised here...why should he be beneficing of a favor special treatment?
Just because he was a "chief", a "president"? Just because he has ordered a lot of assassinations, certainly more than any citizen of his country?

I'm against Death Penalty so it perturbs me a little. But I won't be crying about him....His attitude during his trial was absolutely unberable...
I remember once: one guy came to explain all the tortures he was suffering by his fault, and Hussein was ignoring him as a dog...just complaining about the fact he has just one white shirt to go to his trial.

"By Hanging" is the rule to kill people in his country. So I prefer to have compassion for the ones who died by his fault in the same conditions (I should say "almost the same conditions" cause they were certainly more tortured before to be killed than he was) , or who will die,in the future, than for him.

[QueenBee]

(I should say "almost the same conditions" cause they were certainly more tortured before to be killed than he was)

I had a teacher who was against Saddam and was put in jail for it. Horrible conditions, torture... he sat in a tiny cell with 10 other men, with only a bucket of water... and once one of the men died and was left in that cell with all the others, for several days. It was just horrible to hear his stories. Of course there were people who went through even worse tragedies, but it is just an example from real life that I thought I should share.

[the unforgiven]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

I too am against death penalty but not because it is cruel, but because I don't think it is a punishment

I second that
Saddam Hussein doesn't deserve it at all, being in jail 'til his death sounds more "cruel"

[spyretto]

The majority of the Western World ( including Tony Blair ) expressed their disagreement of carrying out the death sentence ( for Saddam Hussein )
Everybody except one. Guess who...

[Argos]

Originally Posted by spyretto

The majority of the Western World ( including Tony Blair ) expressed their disagreement of carrying out the death sentence ( for Saddam Hussein )
Everybody except one. Guess who...

... ...aaaah!!!Arnold Schwarzenegger - terminate...terminate...terminate!