European Union - General discussion

[haku]

Thanks for the article rosh

Well, i've already said my opinion on Turkey joining the EU, i'm totally against it. That would be the end of the EU. Turkey is not a European country and it doesn't share our history, our cultures, and our values. Turkey's demographic weight would allow it to block most EU decisions and that would be unacceptable to have decisions taken in Brussels being blocked by Ankara, a capital that is not even in Europe! European populations won't accept that, that's just one step too far, the EU might as well be renamed the New Ottoman Empire if Turkey joined.
The day Turkey joins is the day i'll cease to support the EU and i'll then support the idea that France, Germany and a few other countries should withdraw to create something new.


Edited to add:
Bush crossed a line a few days ago when he said that Turkey met the EU criteria and that the EU had to accept Turkey as a member. So now Bush is in command of the EU too? I'm not surprised that the US once again think that they can order everyone around, even the EU, but this is totally unacceptable. Mind your own business Bush! What country can or can not join the EU is up to us Europeans, not Americans.

[spyretto]

Essentially, one part of Turkey belongs to Europe so it's not totally a one-way argument. I think these kind of discussions are a bit of a vicious circle, 10 years is a long time and then EU is not ours - the people's - it's theirs - the politicians' ( and whoever has backed this union up from the beginning. )
People here in the UK don't even feel "European", and I'm sure some 70% would vote against Europe if any kind of referendum took place at any given time.

[haku]

The European Commission has agreed this week to start the process for Turkey to join the EU.

This is a critical mistake, one that is going to plunge the EU into a deep crisis. Most European citizens are against Turkey's membership, now that this decision has been made, i have no doubt that several member states are going to reject the EU constitution next year. Even in France, traditionally pro-EU, the "no" to the constitution has a good chance to win, and the prospect of Turkey joining is going to push more people to vote "no".
Admitting Turkey in the EU is just going one step too far, a step that European citizens won't accept. This may be the begining of the end for the EU, the whole thing is going to collapse if Turkey becomes a member.

The decision still has to be approved by the European Council in december, but i don't have much hope that any member state is going to have the guts to veto the decision.

After that, the constitution will probably be rejected by a lot of member states, which will cause a major crisis, and ultimately the dissolution of the EU.

[spyretto]

Dissolution of the EU? I don't think it will happen, if one or more members veto the decision, it will be postponed indefinitely. ( that's the way it goes, isn't it? )
Turkey has a lot of issues to deal with, how about the fact that it's essentially a military state thinly disguised by democratic procedures? Their human rights record is still not adequate, its economy will take years to reach the level of member states, and how about the Kurdish and Cyprus issues? Those have to be resolved as well.
If they manage to deal effectivelly with those things in say, 10-15 years from now, I think it's for the EU's best interest that they join.

What is the time span with regards to Turkey's admittance? Ten years from now, five years, perhaps a year?

As for December, I don't think that Greece is going to approve unless they get tangible assurances that the Cypriot issue will be resolved. And I also think that France and Germany have serious reasons to veto the decision as well.

[haku]

I'm talking about dissolution because after Turkey becomes a member, the EU will be in a deadlock, and after a time of crisis the whole thing will just collapse.

Some countries, like France and Germany, want to further the political side of the EU. Germany and France supports the idea of the EU becoming a federal union or a confederation at some point in the future, they know that it will be a long and difficult road, but they can hope that we will get there eventually.
With Turkey becoming a member, everything changes, the hope of a political union totally disappears. Turkey is only interested in the economic side of the EU, it wants money but wants nothing to do with the political side, it will block any further deepening of the political union, and with almost 100 million inhabitants, Turkey will be the most powerful member state of the EU and will have the demographic weight to totally block the decision process of the EU, the EU will just freeze, incapable of doing anything, incapable of taking any decision.
It's only a matter of time before countries like France and Germany get utterly frustrated by the stall in the political side of the EU, with no hope of any improvement in the future, the logical decision for them will be to withdraw from the EU, at least the political side, and start something new with countries that are willing to go further.

Anyway, like i said before, Turkey is NOT a European country, that should have been enough to keep them out. Turkey is no more European than Kenya or Thailand, it's a totally different culture. Turkey doesn't share our history, our culture, our values.
Turkey plans to pass a law to send women who cheat on their husbands in jail for crying out loud! I don't want people like that in the European parliament, i don't want European laws blocked by Turkey because they are against the Coran (which will happen).

It's already difficult to build a union with only European countries that share a common history and culture, adding to that a Middle East country is simply suicidal. And contrary to what has happened in the past where European citizens remained quiet about the evolution of the EU, the idea of having a Middle East country with 100 million muslim inhabitants joining the EU is going to cause a violent reaction in the European population, you can be sure of that.

[spyretto]

Chiraq announced today that France is to decide freely on Turkey's membership when the issue arises.
By saying "freely" he hinted at a possible veto by France?
As for Greece's position is that they're positive about Turkey's European future as long as Turkey shows willingness to make progress in several key issues, including naturally the Cypriot issue.

I don't share entirely your view, Turkey has a European part which has direct geographical and political connections with Europe. There's no real bond between the different European cultures anyway, it's all about our willingness to participate into something new. As Turkey becomes increasingly more "European", strengthens its ties with the rest of Europe and as the Islamic influence around the country becomes more and more moderate I think Turkey will get to a point where it could be assimilated into the bulk of the European Union. There's a great disparity between the European and Asian parts of the country, in social, economical, and religious terms no less so and I don't think the time is now, not in two years, not in five years but eventually. Turkey has a long way to go but it's definitely NOT a middle east country.


I don't think the issue of one country getting into the Union will be strong enough to cause the dissolution of a 50 year old-plan. But there's undoubtedly an increasing uncertainty of how the Union will develop now that so many countries have become full members and many more are to follow.
As for Turkey only caring about the economic aspect of the EU, I think that's fair enough, but if they want the economic benefits they'll have to also deal with the political ones
As for disagreements, there are certain member states who didn't agree and continue to disagree with regards to key political and economic issues - the UK, Denmark, Sweden comes to mind - so it's not the first time and it won't be the last. The EU was never threatened because of that.
But I do agree that the possible admittance of Turkey might pose a need for a re-evaluation of the whole European idea...or, then again, it might not...

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Turkey has a lot of issues to deal with, how about the fact that it's essentially a military state thinly disguised by democratic procedures? Their human rights record is still not adequate, its economy will take years to reach the level of member states, and how about the Kurdish and Cyprus issues? Those have to be resolved as well.

Why don't you just say Turkey shoudln't be in because they are muslims. Aye, it's ugly and harsh but that's the whole point. Not politically powerfull military, not human rights, not economy but how they pray.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by haku

Anyway, like i said before, Turkey is NOT a European country, that should have been enough to keep them out. Turkey is no more European than Kenya or Thailand, it's a totally different culture. Turkey doesn't share our history, our culture, our values.

What about Israel? It's even less European yet it is in several things with euro- prefix. Oh, but they are not muslims so they can come in.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by luxxi

Why don't you just say Turkey shoudln't be in because they are muslims. Aye, it's ugly and harsh but that's the whole point. Not politically powerfull military, not human rights, not economy but how they pray.

I don't think it has much to do with that. But we do want a member state that won't undermine the role of the EU don't we? Albania and Bosnia are also predominately muslim counties but I don't think that issue would arise should they come to a point of becoming full member-states. It's not a matter of religion, every individual is free to believe in whatever they want, it's called freedom of religion. But they also have to allow that to their fellow individuals. It's rather a matter of democracy, freedom and respect for human rights.

About Isreal, my opinion is that they shouldn't be allowed to be part of the EU...

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

I don't think it has much to do with that.

Which country has had most troubles with entry negotiations? Is that country by any chance muslim?

Originally Posted by spyretto

But we do want a member state that won't undermine the role of the EU don't we?

Kick Brits out then.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Albania and Bosnia are also predominately muslim counties but I don't think that issue would arise should they come to a point of becoming full member-states.

Are they at same point in nagotiations as Turkey is? Oh, and when they do I'm sure it woun't be about being msulim. It will be something else. Like not being integrated (Bosnia), supporting miniritios with separatist tendencies in neighbouring countries (Albania). Or something else that would be used to block them. And if that is solved soemthing else willb e found, don't worry.

Originally Posted by spyretto

It's not a matter of religion, every individual is free to believe in whatever they want, it's called freedom of religion.

Yes, EU is not pressuring Turkey to become christian. Turkey just isn't welcomed in EU because they are muslims.

Originally Posted by spyretto

But they also have to allow that to their fellow individuals. It's rather a matter of democracy, freedom and respect for human rights.

Want to talk about human rights in Hungary? France?

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by luxxi

Which country has had most troubles with entry negotiations? Is that country by any chance muslim?

Is it Turkey? Do you have an idea why France and Germany would be the stonger oppenents of Turkey's entry? Do you really think it's a matter of being muslims - or maybe - I say maybe - something else? Do you have an idea what will happen in those countries if Turkey were to be admitted in the present circumstances?

Kick Brits out then.

no comment

Are they at same point in nagotiations as Turkey is? Oh, and when they do I'm sure it woun't be about being msulim. It will be something else. Like not being integrated (Bosnia), supporting miniritios with separatist tendencies in neighbouring countries (Albania). Or something else that would be used to block them. And if that is solved soemthing else willb e found, don't worry.

No, they're not. As things stand right now, Turkey will be part of the EU long before Albania does. Albania - one of the most backward countries of Europe - will also be admitted once they fullfil the economic/political requirements.

Yes, EU is not pressuring Turkey to become christian. Turkey just isn't welcomed in EU because they are muslims.

Turrkey is a relatively moderate muslim country. As long as they remain as such there's no reason why they couldn't be part of Europe. If you think there's no problem at all with radical muslim states lets admit Iran and Syria into the European Union and see what happens. They're in Europe aren't they?

Want to talk about human rights in Hungary? France?

What about it? There are instances of human right abuses in every civilised country in the world. What about the US? Do you mean that is an excuse for not getting Turkey into the EU?
and by the way, are you aware that the process of admitting Turkey in the EU is under way?
lest we forget

[haku]

Originally Posted by luxxi

What about Israel? It's even less European yet it is in several things with euro- prefix. Oh, but they are not muslims so they can come in.

You're talking to the wrong person here, i'm all for kicking Israel out of every European organizations.

Originally Posted by luxxi

]Turkey just isn't welcomed in EU because they are muslims.

The "E" in EU means "European", European countries are countries of Celtic, Germanic, Latinate, Greek and Slavic cultures. Turkey is neither Celtic, Germanic, Latinate, Greek or Slavic, therefore it is not European and should not be admitted.

[spyretto]

Southern Europe (Green)
Southern Europe is a term used in much the same ways as Northern Europe. It includes the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal, Andorra), the Italian peninsula (Italy, Vatican City, San Marino) and the Balkan Peninsula (Croatia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Serbia & Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria). Usually the Mediterranean States (Cyprus, Malta) and Asia Minor (i.e. Turkey) are also included. In a cultural sense, southern France may be included.

So, according to wikipedia, Turkey is more European than southern France

Macedonia is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Is it Turkey?

Yes.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Do you have an idea why France and Germany would be the stonger oppenents of Turkey's entry?

Because they (Turks) are muslims.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Do you really think it's a matter of being muslims

Yes.

Originally Posted by spyretto

- or maybe - I say maybe - something else?

No.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Do you have an idea what will happen in those countries if Turkey were to be admitted in the present circumstances?

What?

Originally Posted by spyretto

no comment

Fine. But don't complain about Turkey's lack of willingness to play by EU "rules" when you have Brits doing same.

Originally Posted by spyretto

No, they're not. As things stand right now, Turkey will be part of the EU long before Albania does.

If either of them ever gets in.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Albania - one of the most backward countries of Europe - will also be admitted once they fullfil the economic/political requirements.

Dubt it.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Turrkey is a relatively moderative muslim country.

But still muslim.

Originally Posted by spyretto

As long as they remain as such there's no reason why they couldn't be part of Europe.

So why are they not in yet?

Originally Posted by spyretto

If you think there's no problem at all with radical muslim states lets admit Iran and Syria into the European Union and see what happens. They're in Europe aren't they?

No, they aren't.

And BTW, Syria isn't radical muslim state. Dictatorship yes, radical islmaic no. Remember Hama?

Originally Posted by spyretto

What about it? There are instances of human right abuses in every civilised country in the world.

But that doesn't prevent them from entering EU.

Originally Posted by spyretto

What about the US? Do you mean that is an excuse for not getting Turkey into the EU?

What about US and how does US affect Turkish entry in EU?

Originally Posted by spyretto

and by the way, are you aware that the process of admitting Turkey in the EU is under way?
lest we forget

Are you aware that this process is going on for some 20 years? Lest we forget.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by haku

The "E" in EU means "European", European countries are countries of Celtic, Germanic, Latinate, Greek and Slavic cultures. Turkey is neither Celtic, Germanic, Latinate, Greek or Slavic, therefore it is not European and should not be admitted.

I think Finland, Hungary and Estonia don't fit in this group either. But they are in.

Also you forgot to mention that Europe is christian. Turkey is not. So that's why they woun't get in.

[spyretto]

Because they (Turks) are muslims.

No, it's something else. How about the muslims who live in EU countries? According to your rationale those would be send back home

What?

Have a guess

Fine. But don't complain about Turkey's lack of willingness to play by EU "rules" when you have Brits doing same.

We're talking about the requirements for joining the EU in the first place here, not about the "unwillingness" of certain states to become fully integrated members. Being/not being muslim does not constitute a requirement - as far as I know.

If either of them ever gets in.

Will see about that. i think both will be.

Dubt it.

They will, trust me. Be a little patient.

But still muslim.

So what?

So why are they not in yet?

Greece was waiting for more than 15 years before they were allowed to join. We also had to wait for a further 3 years for economic unification - after everybody else who wanted to be part of it, became part of it.


No, they aren't.

But that doesn't prevent them from entering EU

Yeah, but we're not talking about one or two instances; Turkey used to systematically abuse human rights until recently.

What about US and how does US affect Turkish entry in EU?

It doesn't, it was just an example. But I think the US does engage in human rights abuses.

Are you aware that this process is going on for some 20 years? Lest we forget.

Really, 20 years seems fair enough to me
To sum up with, I don't believe being Muslim has anything to do with it.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

No, it's something else. How about the muslims who live in EU countries? According to your rationale those would be send back home

No, where did you get that from? I said muslim countries aren't welcomed in, not muslim people.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Have a guess

Not a clue.

Originally Posted by spyretto

We're talking about the requirements for joining the EU in the first place here, not about the "unwillingness" of certain states to become fully integrated members.

So Turkey must accept all EU rules while UK can ignore them?

Originally Posted by spyretto

Being/not being muslim does not constitute a requirement - as far as I know.

De iure no, de facto yes.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Will see about that. i think both will be.

Neither is likelly.

Originally Posted by spyretto

They will, trust me. Be a little patient.

How long?

Originally Posted by spyretto

So what?

So not welcomed in.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Greece was waiting for more than 15 years before they were allowed to join. We also had to wait for a further 3 years for economic unification - after everybody else who wanted to be part of it, became part of it.

Every contry that isn't muslim.

Originally Posted by spyretto

No, they aren't.

No they aren't what?

Originally Posted by spyretto

Radical islamic dictatorship, maybe? I remember Hezbollah.

Which is:
A. Lebanese
B. Shi'ia
C. Mostly supported by Iran

Originally Posted by spyretto

Yeah, but we're not talking about one or two instances; Turkey used to systematically abuse human rights until recently.

One or two instances my arse.

Originally Posted by spyretto

It doesn't, it was just an example. But I think the US does engage in human rights abuses.

So does Mozambique. Your point?

Originally Posted by spyretto

Really, 20 years seems fair enough to me

So they will be in soon?

Originally Posted by spyretto

To sum up with, I don't believe being Muslim has anything to do with it.

You believe what you want.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by luxxi

No, where did you get that from? I said muslim countries aren't welcomed in, not muslim people.

Show me where you got that. Or is it your personal view? But if you think that way, Turkey should not have pursued to join the EU in the first place. Does it make sense?

So Turkey must accept all EU rules while UK can ignore them?

UK is a member of the EU

De iure no, de facto yes.

Personal opinion or fact?

So not welcomed in.

Very welcome, indeed, if... and it won't be in 20 years. For now there's not much to be said, because you express your opinion which might be proven right or wrong. I think it will be wrong, and we'll known about it very shortly.
I have faith in my fellow Europeans that they're neither bigots nor racists.

[haku]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Southern Europe … Asia Minor (i.e. Turkey) are also included.

Asia minor is in Europe? Lol Wikipedia is not afraid of geographical nonsense obviously.

Turkey is in Asia, not Europe.

When Turkey becomes a member, it will be the most powerful member of the EU, the most populated one, the one with the most deputies in the EU parliament in Strasburg. Because of their demographic weight, it will be able to block any decision it doesn't like. The European Union will be dominated by a country whose capital is in Asia and run by a muslim fundamentalist party! This is unacceptable.

I still hope that France and Germany, as 2 of the 6 founding members, will have the guts to veto the decision and tell once and for all to Turkey that its membership application is rejected, permanently.

[thegurgi]

I always thought the EU was an economic issue, not an issue to throw about negative racial, religious and geographical sentiments.

Turkey is already in league with a few other "European" unions and i don't understand why Finland, Estonia or Hungary shouldn't be involved... oi, probably because of their Turkish Roots... is this all just 100s of years of hatred from the Ottoman Empire... or was it that the city of Constantinople was the ruling seat of 1/2 of the Roman empire for a while? So why exactly is preposterious for Turkey to join the European Union when it so obviously has European connections.

Seems like a silly debate that i'm getting into, but i honestly don't see any logical objections to the Turks being in the EU other than racism based on stereotypes. ... but what do i know, i'm just a stupid american who shouldn't have a say on anything he's not really involved in (hahaha)

Originally Posted by haku

European countries are countries of Celtic, Germanic, Latinate, Greek and Slavic cultures.

If that's what it means to be European, then ummm, I guess, Canada, The States, Australia and most of South America are pretty European eh? But i'm sure you'd whine just as much if we were admitted to the Union as well... which we wouldn't be... we've got our own little union (but it's debatable about it's success)