Transgender student runs for prom king

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

There are, and have been for awhile...for example.

If this girl claimed her gender identity was Male. Could she go around topless?

Well it depends on the state. In New York back in like 1995 a law was passed allowing females to walk around topless where ever men are allowed too. Whether or not they do is another issue entirely.

I would also like to point out the fact that South Dakota is not know for progressive or even liberal legislation... enough said.

[Talyubittu]

I would also like to point out the fact that South Dakota is not know for progressive or even liberal legislation... enough said.

Yet the abortion ban failed here and the gay marriage opt was nearly half/half.

What does that statement have to do with this topic? You and cool seem to have some odd obsession with where I live.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Yet the abortion ban failed here and the gay marriage opt was nearly half/half.

hmm yet in the Northeast abortion hasn't even been questioned... so a vote isn't necessary, nor is it necessary in the west. That does not disprove what I said in my prior post.

What does that statement have to do with this topic? You and cool seem to have some odd obsession with where I live.

Since you so very much love when people use evidence South Dakota laws pertaining to Hate Crimes, Anti-Discrimination, adoption, ect.

You will notice that South Dakota Does Not protect people's right to Gender Identity and Expression (is that on-topic enough?) or Sexual Orientation under Hate Crimes Statutes. Further more, it also Does Not have Anti-Discrimination laws for GI/E and SO. South Dakota's students' GI/E and SO are also not protected under state laws...

Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

hmm yet in the Northeast abortion hasn't even been questioned... so a vote isn't necessary, nor is it necessary in the west. That does not disprove what I said in my prior post.



Since you so very much love when people use evidence South Dakota laws pertaining to Hate Crimes, Anti-Discrimination, adoption, ect.

You will notice that South Dakota Does Not protect people's right to Gender Identity and Expression (is that on-topic enough?) or Sexual Orientation under Hate Crimes Statutes. Further more, it also Does Not have Anti-Discrimination laws for GI/E and SO. South Dakota's students' GI/E and SO are also not protected under state laws...

Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

Yeah, I still don't see how South Dakota is relevant to a girl running for prom King...

SD has like...700,000 people all together. Not to mention, probably oh.....2,000 of all these people are actually gay/bi/s? I'm pretty sure we don't have any transexuals/transgenders as well. Something that is not common wouldn't be enacted into law, it'd be pointless.

And all the same, I don't think it's bad we do not have gender identity laws. I don't believe in gender identity. Reguardles of what the california legislature belives or anyone on this forum.

Please explain to me how my statement is neither true nor correct? Or have I completely missed the definititions of Progressive and Liberal in my 20+ years of life?

Never said it wasn't dear.

| I think you've misunderstood the proper way to debate. You see, before you prove something wrong, someone usually has to say something in contrast to it. And I don't think I've ever said that SD provides laws for any of these things, so once again, how is this relevent?

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

SD has like...700,000 people all together.

ouch

Not to mention, probably oh.....2,000 of all these people are actually gay/bi/s?

what's the 's' part in there? Straight? LoL

I'm pretty sure we don't have any transexuals/transgenders as well. Something that is not common wouldn't be enacted into law, it'd be pointless.

oh my, are you kidding me .... why did you decide you dont have them??? you havent seen them around? i wonder why... lets see.. they get beaten up with sticks or shot with guns... remember Brandon Teena? yeah..... actually, i know of several people from Nebraska (yeah, not SD, but pretty similar) who were transgender and all of them fleeded the place for CAlifornia where they can be themselves and also where they can get the surgery they needed... without any greef..... hmmmm

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

ouch

what's the 's' part in there? Straight? LoL



oh my, are you kidding me .... why did you decide you dont have them??? you havent seen them around? i wonder why... lets see.. they get beaten up with sticks or shot with guns... remember Brandon Teena? yeah..... actually, i know of several people from Nebraska (yeah, not SD, but pretty similar) who were transgender and all of them fleeded the place for CAlifornia where they can be themselves and also where they can get the surgery they needed... without any greef..... hmmmm

Lol. The S was a typo :-/


I am not sure we don't have transanything here. I'm just assuming, and if we do it's a very very very small number. It's not like you walk into wal-mart and your transgender-o-meter goes up 10 people. It's just something thats very uncommon here.

[Khartoun2004]

Offtop:
Cools if I could I would sooo give you more rep points

Talyubittu, you seriously must love to show how ignorant you are. Just becasue you've never seen a Trans person in your state does not mean they do not exist there. And then to further the point by saying that becasue they are an insignificant part of the population of your state if they do exist, they therefore do not deserve to have rights; just adds more fuel to mine and cools' stance that your state is full of ignorant, bigoted people. Some friendly advice... stop now while you're still somewhat ahead of the game and go do some research on gender theory before you try to say that Gender Identity doesn't exist.

And all of this is relevent to a Boy trying to run for Prom King because you still refuse to Achknowledge his gender identity. And I am just pointing out the possible sources of your flawed and un-informed arguments. If you want me to stop harping on you for being from South Dakota broaden your mindset outside of the narrowed mind viewpoint of your region of the country. It will not serve you well when you get out of the sheltered life of High School and go off to college or enter the real world.

[Talyubittu]

Talyubittu, you seriously must love to show how ignorant you are.

Having a different opinion is not ignorance.

Just becasue you've never seen a Trans person in your state does not mean they do not exist there.

I did not say they do not exist. I said there is a miniscule amount.

And then to further the point by saying that becasue they are an insignificant part of the population of your state if they do exist, they therefore do not deserve to have rights

I said nothing of the sort. I said that it's pointless to take time to enact a law that enables something for such a small fraction of a already small population. - It's the same reason why many laws are different from state to state. Population causes differences in many many laws. It's not that we have "ignorant bigoted people", it's that we don't have any reason to have these laws.

Some friendly advice... stop now while you're still somewhat ahead of the game and go do some research on gender theory before you try to say that Gender Identity doesn't exist.

And it didn't exist until the 1950's. It was first a test run to find out where homosexuality orginated from in small children. Robert Stoller created the term, and even today gender identity in the realms of Psychology is still called "Gender Identity Theory". Gender Identity is socially constructed as well according to Psychologists, it's not an state in which you are born. The generic term for Gender Identity as well does not mean "I believe I'm a man in a womans body". It's the type of physical and social status that is thought of partaining to a specific gender. I.E. - Women cook, men go to work. I'd also like to point out that Psychology is a theory to understand how the mind works. It's not an exact brance of science or medicine. Gender Identity has no proof of existance. 5 million people can claim they feel the effects of belonging to another Gender, but it's something they've convicned themselves of mentally. It's like religion, it can't be proven, but people believe it. It's kinda like a gender hypocondriac? Offtop:
How's that for research?

And all of this is relevent to a Boy trying to run for Prom King because you still refuse to Achknowledge his gender identity

She has a vagina. She believes that she is male. No matter how much surgery she gets, or how many hormones she takes, she will still be Female. You can know exactly how an apple is made. But you need nature to grow it. - Gender is the same. You can mess around with whatever you want, but you will always be the sex you are born with. No matter what your genetalia looks like.

If you want me to stop harping on you for being from South Dakota broaden your mindset outside of the narrowed mind viewpoint of your region of the country.

I believe by just knowing information on Gender Identity I already have quite a bit broader mindset, I have asked people sitting around me in class right now what it is and none of them have the slightest clue. Having a broad mindset does not mean I need to agree with you, it means I need to understand and evaluate to form my own opinion. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am narrow minded. Personally, I think you're being narrow minded, you are constantly bitching and nagging at me for having a belief other than yours, and I think you need to accept the fact that I am allowed to have my own opinion, whether you are a transexual or not and whether you like my opinion or not.

It will not serve you well when you get out of the sheltered life of High School and go off to college or enter the real world.

For someone who's getting ready to have a fake genitalia, it's a bit rude for you to preach to me about the reality of life, seeing as you obviously don't understand what's real and what isn't. The real world is understanding life as what it is. It's not like I live and attend school in a computer generated perfect world. I know what the real world is like, contrary to popular belief, we get CNN in South Dakota.

I'd also like to say that I believe there is a difference in being Liberal and being Ignorant. And yes, Ignorant. Ignorant to the point where you start forgetting what's real to please people who believe things that are not proven to be real.

Offtop:
OH and I gave cool some rep points, since you couldn't.

Have a nice day.

[forre]

Ааааааааааааааааааааааааа аа! Help! I receive reported posts from this thread. Can you people discuss anything without insulting each other? All next off-top and insults will be deleted even if the posts contain a few sentences on the subject.

The question of gender identities is difficult. We have hundreds of things in our lives based on differences between men and women. These differences are going to remain, either we want it or not. Even we - ourselves, behave differently depending on who we deal with - a man or a woman. We do it every day without even realizing that. Luckily, all went fine with the contest in that particular school and I see the point why. Yes, I think, it's harmless on that scale. When such questions arise, I think often about sports. What would happen, if they allow people born in a wrong body compete with gender opposite to their own. Hmm...

[volk1]

Some people here have a real problem with accepting others' viewpoints. Yes - it is within reason to debate in this topic. No - it is not a deathmatch. The fact is, no matter how much you argue, no matter how much you call someone ignorant, no matter how much you invalidate someones opinion because of where they live...you won't win. There's nothing to win here. All of this calling out of individuals is very childish.

And I believe some of you need to really think about the word ignorant. Ignorance is defined as a lack of intelligence NOT a conservative viewpoint. I have noticed that many people like to call people with slightly conservative views "ignorant." Maybe some of you feel that not letting this girl run for prom king is ignorant...no, it is simply conservative. So, please, some of you should think of the definition of ignorant before using that word.

And, Khartoun, do you identify as a liberal? I'm assuming you do since you are defending this girl to the death. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways...you might want to think about a liberal is before you attack and berate Talyubittu for his beliefs, cutting him down, calling him ignorant. Part of being a liberal is about being ACCEPTING of free speech...especially when it pertains to personal belief. If you're so liberal, open-minded, and tolerant, why can't you simply accept that Talyubittu has a different belief? Think a little about that. A little hypocritic, don't you think?

There are two different opinions here:
1. Girl should not be able to run for prom king
2. Girl should be able to run for prom king

Simple.

If you guys are as grown up as you present yourselves, you guys should be able to have a civil debate without attacking the person themselves.
This is all I will say on the matter.

So, back to the debate.
Be respectful. Have fun.

[QueenBee]

Offtop:

I receive reported posts from this thread.

Sorry, but whoever did that is lame, according to me.

When such questions arise, I think often about sports. What would happen, if they allow people born in a wrong body compete with gender opposite to their own.

Okay, I have nothing to base this on, but I heard somewhere that it isn't allowed because men are "naturally stronger than women". I don't know if this means that they have more muscle mass and women more fat, but I agree with it. I think if you look at women and men in general, the men are usually stronger. Because in sports it's about how well you use your body and I think men have an advantage when it comes to that.

And also, it saddens me to see that people are jumping on Talyubittu for where he lives. I've known you guys for several years so naturally I should be on "your side", but even though I know nothing about South Dakota, I can't understand why you keep putting him down for living there. Not everyone fits into the stereotype. That's like saying all feminists are hairy. But I guess we can't say that because people would be upset.

As usual - we are "open for opinions" here. But we're only open for opinions when they don't fit into society's POW. We think open-minded people who accept the whole GLBT (NO I don't know if that's in correct order) community are intelligent individuals, but as soon as someone goes against this even a little bit, we freak out.

[la aurora]

I can't really relate to this whole 'being in the wrong gender' situation, as being the careless type I am, I don't think I'd feel any worse in the male body than I feel in my female one. For me it's less on gender level and more on the level of emotions and aesthetics. Both genders have their pro's and con's. As long as this body is relatively healthy, I'm cool with it and I'd find my ways to find a look I'd be comfortable enough with. But then I never was known for having a healthy 'down to earth' mind, so I can understand that some people may have different view on such things.

What I can't understand is all this fuss about this article. If the person feels happy getting this opportunity and people around him/her don't really mind giving him/her this opportinity, then why the hell would 'we' mind? It's a good lesson of acceptance for people that feel different, it's great for Cinthia to get this support by his/her classmates, it's an example of humanism winning over burocracy. People will have fun, someone will feel happy for some time. What's the deal? I used to play soccer against guys. I payed for it and learned my lesson (after jumping on 1 leg for 2 weeks after that lol). I could of course refuse to compete against them, could say it's unfair. But I didn't. I felt fine with it, they felt fine with it, people around us felt fine with it. Who cares about it being unfair and unlogical as far as it's all voluntary.

There are situations that are more complicated than this one. Of course people that feel they are wrong gender should have their feelings respected but it doesn't mean that feelings of people that feel bad about it shouldn't be respected at the same time. Respect, loyality, politeness and trying to understand opinions and feelings other than your own are especially important with issues like this. It's really a shame that while discussing it, we totally forget about all those important things. It's good to show support for some random person we never met but it's worth nothing if we fail to apply same rules to people we communicate with directly.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

And it didn't exist until the 1950's. It was first a test run to find out where homosexuality orginated from in small children. Robert Stoller created the term, and even today gender identity in the realms of Psychology is still called "Gender Identity Theory". Gender Identity is socially constructed as well according to Psychologists, it's not an state in which you are born. The generic term for Gender Identity as well does not mean "I believe I'm a man in a womans body". It's the type of physical and social status that is thought of partaining to a specific gender. I.E. - Women cook, men go to work. I'd also like to point out that Psychology is a theory to understand how the mind works. It's not an exact brance of science or medicine. Gender Identity has no proof of existance. 5 million people can claim they feel the effects of belonging to another Gender, but it's something they've convicned themselves of mentally. It's like religion, it can't be proven, but people believe it. It's kinda like a gender hypocondriac? Offtop:
How's that for research?

The idea of gender identity has been around since written history, or at least as far as we know. It has only been studied in the past hundred years, doesn't mean it hasn't existed before then, it has just been recently identified as such.
But you're right, psychology and sociology are not exact sciences. Doesn't mean though everything studied under those are always questionable; everything simply is open-ended. Gender identity theory has revealed some truths; the idea of gender or at least the idea that we all prescribe to is a social construct.
That is that women cook, men go to work, girls should be elected to prom queen and boys to prom king (Not to mention, this is all also heteronormative). You yourself, whether you are aware of it or not, are prescribing to that notion. There is no right or wrong approach to this, we just need to see where we are coming from becuase we all do it in our little ways.
Like this:

Originally Posted by QueenBee

That's like saying all feminists are hairy. But I guess we can't say that because people would be upset.

Damn straight we'd be upset!
And we are not hairy, fuzzy perhaps.
Hater!

In any case, not every culture sees gender this way. Gender is not even binary in some cultures.
And why not, sex isn't either!


And just one more thing with all of te red state/blue state; Rick Santorum was a Senator from Pennsylvania, SANTORUM!!!
Offtop:
The frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex. I had to, I just had to spread the word baby!

[Talyubittu]

In any case, not every culture sees gender this way. Gender is not even binary in some cultures.
And why not, sex isn't either!

I don't understand this...how can gender be described as binary? | are you refering to chromosomes and such?

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

I don't understand this...how can gender be described as binary? | are you refering to chromosomes and such?

Uh no, I'm just talking about male and female binary opposites; I'm strictly speaking about gender not sex.
Any talk pertaining to biology will draw a complete blank from me, I totally skipped out on bio during my high school years.

[Khartoun2004]

I would like to point out after re-reading this thread that some people have no clue what Transgender actually means... so for clarifications sake I'll define it now.

Trangender is any person that bends the strict gender binary of our culture and society. This term includes everyone from Cross-dressers, drag queens, drag kings, gender queers, gender benders and also transsexuals. It's essentially an umbrella term.

Oh and by the way, the guy in the article didn't win the crown... it went to a mindless jock as is the usual with most high school proms

[Talyubittu]

... it went to a mindless jock as is the usual with most high school proms

Better than going to a dickless girl.


I also think it's a bit rude that you're stereotyping jocks as being mindless. Weren't you arguing against stereotypes this entire time?
Hmm? Seems like someone has double standards.


It might also shock you to know that most jocks aren't "Mindless".
Anyone involved with any type of school activity in America has to maintain a GPA of 3.0 I believe.

[Khartoun2004]

Offtop:

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

SD has like...700,000 people all together.

I'd like to point out that the city I grew up in has over 300,000 more people than your entire state... the current state I live in has also about 300,000 more people living in it and it's the smallest state by land mass... you could fit 75 Rhode Islands in South Dakota... so what was the point of bringing up population? unless it's to prove the point that your state is gigantic and it's entirely possible that their are plenty of trans people and you just haven't run into them, I'm quite positive RI has more Queer people per square mile than SD.

Speaking of girls running for Prom King... My girlfriends ex-girlfriend ran for Prom Queen and Prom King the other day It was wicked awesome

[Talyubittu]

I'd like to point out that the city I grew up in has over 300,000 more people than your entire state... the current state I live in has also about 300,000 more people living in it and it's the smallest state by land mass... you could fit 75 Rhode Islands in South Dakota... so what was the point of bringing up population? unless it's to prove the point that your state is gigantic and it's entirely possible that their are plenty of trans people and you just haven't run into them, I'm quite positive RI has more Queer people per square mile than SD.

Which was my point? Did you not catch it? We were talking about laws protecting gay's and transgenders, my response was that we have a way to small a population of transgenders to make laws for them.



- How does one run for both prom king and queen?

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

- How does one run for both prom king and queen?

because their school doesn't have the students vote for people, they let the location's staff members pick the Prom King and Queen. She just happened to join both lines. I personally think that's a fair way to pick the prom court anyway, it eliminates popularity from the equation entirely... that's what Student Council elections are for

And Massachusetts protects students' GI/E and SO that's why. I have my alma-mater well trained in queer rights, that was my legacy there and I fought for them for three years... they know better.