Transgender student runs for prom king

[Ace of Order]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

Yes. Because you're suffering from the mental dissease of homosexuality aren't you?

But...it isn't a disease as far as the scientific community is concerned. And I hate to say, but EVERYTHING we currently "know" is pretty much a theory. Because at any point in time, new evidence could present itself that could cause us to re-evaluate what we "consider" to be fact right now. (Note: Pluto.) What you take as fact is really just a heavily believed theory. I choose to accept the scientific community's belief that our atmosphere is made of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other misc. gases, that the speed of light is constant, and that homosexuality is legit. However... that does not in no way mean that it should not be accepted as "fact", because the whole concept of a Fact is based in our understanding of logic and on our investigational sciences.

I'm guessing it has something to do with theory and something that hasn't been proven correct, however foundations support the said answer.

If that's your answer, then I assume you take absolutely nothing as fact, because everything we know is based off the investigational sciences. Everything.

Like I said. There's a difference in wanting to be the opposite sex and doing things that the opposite sex usually does. It's not the same thing.

Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

It would seem that there is valid biological "proof" of transsexualism.

Offtop:
If you're going to go back several decades and say that I have the mental disorder of homosexuality, then I'm going to playfully go back several centuries to when there were only 13 colonies making up America, and say that you're not American because you're off in the wilderness to the West. I mean, it WAS "fact" that America was only the thirteen states back then...

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Ace of Order

But...it isn't a disease as far as the scientific community is concerned. And I hate to say, but EVERYTHING we currently "know" is pretty much a theory. Because at any point in time, new evidence could present itself that could cause us to re-evaluate what we "consider" to be fact right now. (Note: Pluto.) What you take as fact is really just a heavily believed theory. I choose to accept the scientific community's belief that our atmosphere is made of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other misc. gases, that the speed of light is constant, and that homosexuality is legit. However... that does not in no way mean that it should not be accepted as "fact", because the whole concept of a Fact is based in our understanding of logic and on our investigational sciences.




If that's your answer, then I assume you take absolutely nothing as fact, because everything we know is based off the investigational sciences. Everything.



Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

It would seem that there is valid biological "proof" of transsexualism.

Offtop:
If you're going to go back several decades and say that I have the mental disorder of homosexuality, then I'm going to playfully go back several centuries to when there were only 13 colonies making up America, and say that you're not American because you're off in the wilderness to the West. I mean, it WAS "fact" that America was only the thirteen states back then...

Interesting. There was a study done in the Netherlands involving several autopsies of pre-op transexuals that found that they biologically had the brain formations and size of their personally identified gender. So it would seem that they did in fact understand that their body was not in congruence with their mind (or for that matter, their physical brain). Source: http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

This still dosen't make what I said untrue. There IS a difference in a girl who likes to play sports, than a girl who wants a penis. And obviously that was so with the pre op's, your body adapts to your enviornment and your mental state. If you can convince yourself that you're sick, you're going to feel sick. If you can convince yourself that you are the wrong gender, there is bound to be some chnages in hormones and other aspects of the body.

- As for fact/fiction of science. I believe things that have SUBSTANTIAL evidence to be true. Being a transexual as I said, is something you convince yourself of, and then opt to either have an operation or not. It's not like transexuals are natural beings of the world that are not yet understood. It's a man created science that causes the change, just because a person can confuse their body, does not mean that it's something that is normal to do. I think scientists should take this into concideration when they make some of their analysis.

good points however it's nice to have someone to debate with who dosen't rip my head off for living in the midwest for once. I respect that. R+

Offtop:
True, but I don't ever remember whatever causes homosexexuality to annex texas and florida, or make the Louisiana purchase.

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

This still dosen't make what I said untrue. There IS a difference in a girl who likes to play sports, than a girl who wants a penis. And obviously that was so with the pre op's, your body adapts to your enviornment and your mental state. If you can convince yourself that you're sick, you're going to feel sick. If you can convince yourself that you are the wrong gender, there is bound to be some chnages in hormones and other aspects of the body.

Actually, Medicine (which you say is concrete) has proven that the basic structures of our brain are formed while inutero and DO NOT change after birth. Sure the brain matures and new connections between neurons are made, but the brain does not create more matter than it already has post birth nor does it change the size and shape of it after birth either. So actually you are factual incorrect about the "hormonal and other changes".

To change the hormonal chemistry of your body you must inject hormones from man made sources.

[Ace of Order]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

- As for fact/fiction of science. I believe things that have SUBSTANTIAL evidence to be true. Being a transexual as I said, is something you convince yourself of, and then opt to either have an operation or not. It's not like transexuals are natural beings of the world that are not yet understood. It's a man created science that causes the change, just because a person can confuse their body, does not mean that it's something that is normal to do. I think scientists should take this into concideration when they make some of their analysis.

I definitely disagree with your assertion that you convince yourself of being transsexual. I knew when i was a kid that something was not right because I did not find girls attractive. It's something that came as a dawning light, a realization, over an extended period of time when i was coming of age.

I've had the privilege of being the friend of someone who was a girl when i met them, but is now transitioning to a boy. And by listening to them and listening to the opinions of professors at my school (Not everyone was on the same side of the debate, mind you), I honestly believe that it is the same type of realization for transgender people: A realization that, as a kid (or whenever they realize it, after all, sexual orientation is also something that doesn't become apparent to people until sometimes mid-life), they just don't feel comfortable in their own skin.

It's something foreign to them. "Not their body." I mean, when I look into the mirror, I have to say I'm pretty pleased with what I see. The freckles irk me sometimes, but what can i do, I'm Irish. But that's NOTHING compared to being absolutely disgusted with myself every time I have to look at my torso or groin. The trauma associated with that is probably a factor psychologists take into consideration when they diagnose someone with Gender Identity Disorder. It really does hurt the person mentally to be "trapped" in a foreign body.

I mean, and perhaps this is a point you can empathize with me on, how would you feel if you, as the person you are, with your own beliefs, morals, values etc, as well as your confidence in being a boy and your appreciation for your genitals, suddenly were thrust into a body with boobs the size of tangerines and a vagina? How would you feel?

How you might feel in that situation is something that psychologists take into account. You might respond that you don't think a transsexual is IN that situation to begin with, because they have convinced themselves they're the opposite sex. But take into consideration the studies that have shown that transsexual people show the cognitive and behavioral characteristics of the gender they identify with. To cinvince oneself to go against society and copy the opposite sex is a pretty remarkable feat. I wouldn't go through such a re-conditioning of my mind if it were a "choice". But transsexuals don't have a "choice" to make in that regard. Their only choice... is to take the steps necessary to bring their body in line with the thinking patterns and physical make-up of their brain. Of what they truly feel their body is supposed to be, feel like, and look like.

Offtop:
Oooohhhhh.... make no mistake, my friend, I am THE definition of the provincial RHode Islander. I whine every time I get taken as "far" as Massachusetts on a small errand (read: roadtrip). I see people on the road with license plates from any state other than Massachusetts (read: Massholes), Rhode Island, or New York (Just because one of my best friends is a New Yorker and I'd get backhanded for dissing NY) and I get flustered and tell them to get the f*ck out of my state.

Out-of-staters can't drive, are rude and obnoxious, refuse to obey our traffic laws, DARE to dis my accent, AND (ohhhh...) seem to think that Rhode Island is too small to be a state. NEVERMIND those gods-condemned Nutmeggers (The Connecticut people), who have this LUDICRIS idea in their heads that they should annex Rhode Island. Ohhh, Taly, let me tell you, out-of-staters are crazy. Absolutely looney.

"I'ma Roe Dy'landa and you'se out-a-statahs have no idear what you'ser talkin' 'bout."

PS: It's all in good fun, this Off-TOpic, and I hope it made you smile, but seriously, one of my weaknesses (well, *I* consider it a strength...) is that I'm a damn provincial son-of-a-gun. Feel free to poke fun at it. BTW, the quote above IS how my accent sounds. Ask Khartoun2004...