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28-05-2005, 21:26 | #1 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Schapelle Corby Trial
This is complete bullshit. It's obvious Indonesian courts are completely shambolic affairs, with utter disregard of the most basic of criminal trial principles. There was no way a legaly competent judge could find her guilty from all the flaws in the process and the evidence presented, unless the trial was one of those pirate type things where the accuser is standing on the edge of the wooden board, during the trial already, with nothing but bottomless sea and some hungry sharks waiting for him once he makes the next step, while the "prosecuting pirate" is poking him in the back with a dagger. Haaarrrrr.
Then there's a little thing of respecting international collision laws, that forbid you to try a foreigner for anythning else then conspiracy to commit mass-murder/genocide, international espionage, planning to overthrow a goverment, commiting crimes against humanity and similar shit like that. Having pot in your suitcase? Get serious. That's not even an offence in legaly literate countries. No way anyone can get away with going against a foreigner for such bogus charges, no matter what their national laws are. The sheer fact is that International Law Commission finds legislature like that grossely unproportional and unfair. Indonesia's territorial soverignity crumbles like a cookie against those arguments. If they want to presnet themselves as even the slight resemblance of the rule of law obeying country they must stop this nonsense now and extradite her, because that is ALL that's in their jurisdiction. If all those United Nation's fancy sub-organizations like ILO or ILC have any kind of influence on stupid idiots misrepresenting the rule of law, they have to act NOW and isolate Indonesia from the international legal community. Because seriously, what's next? Sheriat law in all the Arab countries? Middle eastern people will have a blast watching unfaithful women and gays being stoned to death, instead of a sunday soccer game. What a fucking stupid world, we're living in. o_0 I'd go defend her pro bono, right now, if I could. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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30-05-2005, 16:12 | #2 | ||||
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You can try anybody who brakes your laws on your territory. Look at how many Slovenians are in British jails for smuggling heroin to UK. Are they being held agaisnt int'l laws? Since you seem to claim they are why aren't you raising stink about that? FREE SLOVENIAN SMUGGLERS. Quote:
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In Singapore you are fined if you throw cigarette butt on street. Does anybody (e.g. you) argue that foreigners should be fined for such trivial matters? Or that International Law Commission finds legislature like that grossely unproportional and unfair? I mean, it's only littering. It's not as if you killed somebody, right? Quote:
Bullshit. She was acussed of breaking Indonesian law. Indonesia had every right to try her under Indonesian law. If some Turk would be caught with 5 kilos of heroin in Slovenia would Slovenia be allowed to try him under Slovenian law and sent him to slovenian jail (if found guilty) or would we be only allowed to sent him to Turkey? Hint: look at what happens to people who smuggle illegal migrants. |
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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02-06-2005, 20:04 | #3 |
Sad Little Monkey
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All your answers revolve around the same point so I'll answer in one go:
It all comes down to the question of terrotorial soverignity of a country. It's been established a long time ago that a country definitely has unlimited personal soveriginity (over it's own citizens, wherever they might be... see the law collision here?), while it's disputed whether a country has absolute territorial jurisdiction over anyone that transits through it's borders. Granted, a foreigner in a country is to obey the internal rule of law of a country. There's no doubt about it... but the question here lies in the mockery that is the Indonesian legal system. The trial was not held within the international standards (most basic of priniples of a criminal case weren't followed - I won't get into it, but I can if you want) and the sheer reason for the existance of international legal community is to remedy such situations. And you can't compare a country like the UK, with any sorts of Asian justice system (not to mention the UK HAS to follow certain rules and bilateral agreements enforced by the EU). Besides the trial not being fair (so the judicial branch of Indonesian goverment is flawed), there's also a question of ridiculous legislation with death sentance threatened for pot smuggling (thus legislative branch of Indonesian goverment is flawed). That's something that just doesn't cut it - a country has free hands to enforce her rule of law, but up to an extent. There has to be a minimum treshold of human rights provided to the defendant. And in this case... both legislative and judicial branches worked against that. This case is completely similar to the sheriatic laws in certain muslim courts, where a woman can be legaly stoned to death in case she has sex outside of wedlock. This is where international legal community with it's instruments of in-direct power comes in... or at least they should. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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02-06-2005, 21:08 | #4 |
My Waking Hour
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She had 3 kilos in her buggage. That's not what I'd call a little bit.
As for Indonesia, they're SE Asia's most fanatic Islamist state alongside Malaysia. So what did you expect, really. The legal systems differ from country to country. In the UK a murderer might get 10 years while in the US, the same murderer might go on death row. Bottomline: if you mix with the bran you'll be eaten by the chicks. ( it's an old Greek saying ). |
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03-06-2005, 00:50 | #5 |
Sad Little Monkey
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The fact is that some universal legal principles weren't followed during the trial. Some principles that are essencial to the validity of the case and justice system in general.
Not to mention that you just CANNOT sentance people to death or even 20 years inprisonment because they smuggled pot. (I'm not saying she wasn't planted the drug, I'm just saying that even if she was a smuggler she still didn't deserve what she got). |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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03-06-2005, 11:55 | #6 | |||||||||
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Whether death penalty is OK or not is different issue. Quote:
No, they don't. British legal system is independant. Granted, they have to comply with certain rules (like Schengen regime, flow of labour, tarriffs etc) but beyond that they are independant. If they want to have maximum santance life in prison without parole they cn have it. Nobody can force them to have max sentance 30 years with parole. Quote:
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Does anybody compalin that littering is prohibited in Singapore? Does this violate your human right to throw trash on the ground? Where is outrage of unproportional penalties for that? 200$ (or whatever) for not flushing toilet? Where is outrage at that? that's so unfair and unproportional. Yet nobody cares. People know the law so they should respect it. Ignorance is no excuse. If they don't like laws in certain country don't go there if you can't respect them. Quote:
Why aren't you complaining about how much you have to pay in singapore for littering? Why aren't you compalining that you can loose your driving license if you have too much alcohol in you when driving? Why aren't you compalining about fees for speeding? Are those things unproportinal as well? |
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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03-06-2005, 12:36 | #7 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Like I said: "minimum threshold of human rights". It's not a right for people to carry drugs. But
1) They DO have a right to a fair trial. 2) They DO have the right to a reasonable legislation. And no... a country is not allowed to do as they please when it comes to legislation either - minimum standards apply here just as well. You need to have a certain level of standard to get credibility. And this is exactly why the International Law Organisation is distancing itself from sheriatic and other means of tribal legal systems and in the process forcing the goverments to make neccesary changes, if they want to remain a part of the international community. You're right - you can't force countries to change legislation. But you can indirectly "persuade" them to do so. After all... no one forced them to be members of the UN or other non-govermental orgs, did they? There's actually no real debate the trial itself was unfair: the police didn't took fingerprints of the pot bag. That was a major flaw in the pre-procedings, which should (in a legal country) be grounds for an immediate dismissal of the verdict. They dismissed all the claims of witnesses (they didn't state clear and consise reasons why they did so, they just said their statements will not be considered valid).... when you go through the whole process point by point it's easy to see the whole trial was nothing but a charade in which she was sentanced long before she entered the courtroom. In their mind they just can't allow themselves to let the drug smugglers go and whether they're deliberate or undeliberate, set-up offenders is of no importance to them. (I think that taking someone's license in Slovenia is unconstitutional and I said that in an open letter to the minister of internal affairs. ... yet it doesn't exceed that minimum threshold of human rights I was talking about. Now were sentances for speeding range from 15 years inprisonment to a death sentance, that's where the international community should step in and tell us to get a grip.) |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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04-06-2005, 14:28 | #8 | ||||
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And what is reasonable legislation? One that westerners consider OK? Quote:
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Something people here have no troubles doing when Americans are accused of doing it. |
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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04-06-2005, 16:16 | #9 | ||||
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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04-06-2005, 18:19 | #10 | |||
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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05-06-2005, 03:34 | #11 | |||
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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07-06-2005, 20:40 | #12 | |||||
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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07-06-2005, 21:05 | #13 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Employees work to get money. No one will leave their livelyhood for an uncertain future, just because they hate their co-workers/superiours. This goes double for our country, I'm sure you know. You can argue differently, but at the same time I can say back that no one forces people to drive on the road. They do it out of their own conveniance. They could walk. I know it's a lousy argument but it goes hand in hand with your saying that employees can just CHOOSE who they'll work for at random.
EU membership is voluntary (okay, not really, since we're in-directly forced anyway, but that's not important here), as is the membership in UN. Indonesia is a member state, therefore it has to obey certain legal standards. Or at least it SHOULD if the UN in itself wouldn't be so damn ineffective. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the security council should all of a sudden level Indonesia with the ground because of this. They should just be persuaded in a friendly manner through international pressure. Like some Arab countries were when sheriatic law was in question. You realize we're moving in a circle here, yes? You're all for terrotorial soverignity of a country at all cost, while I think a little international interventionism never hurt. Especially when shambolic asian courts are in question. I see your point, though. I just don't agree with it . |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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07-06-2005, 21:18 | #14 | ||||
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Were US interventions in Haiti OK? In other LAtin American countries? Vietnam? |
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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07-06-2005, 21:44 | #15 | ||||
Sad Little Monkey
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Endless circle? ... okay. One more go:
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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09-06-2005, 09:51 | #16 | ||||||
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You showed you don't respect the rules. You showed you are danger to others. Quote:
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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10-06-2005, 20:12 | #17 | |||||
Sad Little Monkey
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[quote=luxxi]You showed you don't respect the rules. You showed you are danger to others.
And thus I should be appropriately punished. But not with a permanent driving ban, since that clashes with the permanent status of education. Quote:
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Desert Storm didn't happen "just because". The security Council has strickly written right to use collective actions (millitary & economic), to preserve peace and security. The only reason why the second attack on Iraq happened was because the allies didn't finish the job in the early 90s. Thus everything is down to inefficiency of the security council and general assembly. Was US justified? Depends how you look at it. You can say US made "sui generis" law, since the Security Council has been proved inaffective and divided sharply in blocks and interests. You can argue that the constitution of the UN has been changed with conclusive actions, since it's a "living charter", which changes if proven inaffective. International politics are too complicated to look at it with a simplicity of "right", "wrong". Eventhough US politics was too self-orientated you can't say it's nto a common thing to be done in politics. But we weren't talking about country relations before... we were talking about judicial ones. *my offtopic warning light's starting to flash now* Quote:
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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13-06-2005, 19:12 | #18 | ||
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Ho, ho, ho. Santa is in town. And he has a list of naughty girls. Proud "no club member" club member Life sucks so why don't you just drop your pants and enjoy it? Tatysite, love or leave it. And don't bother complaining, thread will be closed. |
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14-06-2005, 10:23 | #19 |
winter days ...
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are you two still at it ?
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14-06-2005, 14:01 | #20 | |||
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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