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Tatu in Podnebesnaya. Releases from 14.02.04 and 15.02.04. [aka Eps. 9 & 10]


 
 
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Old 17-02-2004, 12:15   #101
Rob Rob is offline
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... The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. ...
The message worked and that's the important part of it, no matter what lies beneath.
No one can expect that someone standing up for tolerance is jewish, black or gay himself.
They made a difference and that counts.

Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.

It doesn't matter whether Y/L were a couple or not, we believe in the message of a movie knowing well that it's not reality we see.

I'm thankful for what they did and I don't give a damn what they do in private, same goes for Ivan, even though looking at Pasha reminds me of the Placebo song "Change your taste in men" - but that's not really my business.
 
Old 17-02-2004, 12:49   #102
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Originally posted by Rob
The message worked and that's the important part of it, no matter what lies beneath.
No one can expect that someone standing up for tolerance is jewish, black or gay himself.
They made a difference and that counts.

Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.

It doesn't matter whether Y/L were a couple or not, we believe in the message of a movie knowing well that it's not reality we see.
Very cool, Rob!

Perceptive, clever and eloquent as ususal. *applauds*

xena225
 
Old 17-02-2004, 13:53   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob
Even though some people would love to turn the clock back and all those who came out or started living their lives as they wanted to would go back in the closet, shut up and stay alone for the rest of their lives or marry the "traditional" way and so on.
Exactly! Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet (and it's possible when you are young, you can always say "It was just a phase", people around them will be delighted to believe that). It's not good!

Yes, Tatu made a difference, but for only a few months, it could have been so much longer. I'm not saying they should have continued to pretend of course, making a difference on the long run would have required that the girls were really gay in the first place. The project was doomed to fail from the beginning because of that fakeness, of course it never mattered to Ivan because making a difference was never a goal of the project.

And i already said it, but for young fans, seeing Y&L transforming from two teenage gay girls to two adult straight women is so damaging! It's like a living cliche! The image they give now is "It's ok for girls to experiment with other girls when they are teenagers, but once adult women they have to switch to men."
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Old 17-02-2004, 14:24   #104
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Originally posted by haku
Exactly! Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet (and it's possible when you are young, you can always say "It was just a phase", people around them will be delighted to believe that). It's not good!

Yes, Tatu made a difference, but for only a few months, it could have been so much longer. I'm not saying they should have continued to pretend of course, making a difference on the long run would have required that the girls were really gay in the first place. The project was doomed to fail from the beginning because of that fakeness, of course it never mattered to Ivan because making a difference was never a goal of the project.

And i already said it, but for young fans, seeing Y&L transforming from two teenage gay girls to two adult straight women is so damaging! It's like a living cliche! The image they give now is "It's ok for girls to experiment with other girls when they are teenagers, but once adult women they have to switch to men."
Unfortunately, you're totally right.
This is really sad.
I can understand why Rachel (Real_Lesbian) got so upset. She came out to her parents because of t.A.T.u. - and then she sees they were faking
 
Old 17-02-2004, 14:42   #105
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Some people are now regreting to have come out because of Tatu, they are considering going back in the closet ...
Everyone needs time to accept who they are, if they already made the step out, they are able to get more strength and belief in themselves.
They won't turn their whole lives back just because Y/L are in a f/m relationship.


Gay-icons like Melissa Etheridge, who obviously didn't think Y/L were gay, didn't have any problem with tATu.
 
Old 17-02-2004, 14:52   #106
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Rob, I agree with you. They have/had the right message. It changed things. Honestly tatu never changed. They had those we have bfs one day and we are lesbian the other day talks all along. They never started something they didn't finish. People just saw what they wanted to see and still do.
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Old 17-02-2004, 15:18   #107
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Originally posted by haku
The whole concept of the project is based on lies and deception. Ivan just probably saw some Japanese animes and realized that having two real flesh teenage girls showing panties and making out would be a great sell, and it worked very well, beyond his wildest expectations i'm sure. The message of tolerance for same-sex couples was fake, just an unvoluntary side effect of showing two schoolgirls making out, but it was never the main goal of the project. The main goal was simply to sell a band using one of the most common fantasies: cute teenage girls kissing and groping each other.
The main fan base was teenage girls, not dirty older men (that's only here on Tatysite ). I think the explanation for their success is the one Ivan gave in the Ptyuch interview - two girls in love is the most emotionally powerful image and it plays on the secret fantasies of teenage girls.

There was more to the 'message' than tolerance of same-sex relationships. If you went deeper, it was more existentialist, lesbianism was used as a metaphor. Anatomy's portrayal of Yulia showed this perfectly: she was an existentialist hero, unafraid to explore her sexuality, prepared to take heroin just to make a point about personal choice over addiction, even prepared to lay down her voice and career for her country! It was about making brave choices, not giving a damn about consequences.

That doesn't mean the message was genuine. But the deep message was quite well-developed in some of Ivan's interviews (particularly with Malcolm McLaren in The Face) and in some of the songs (30 Minutes and so far as I could understand it in Ne Ver Ne Boisia). I think he probably was expressing genuine philosophical and political ideas, even though he didn't really care about gay rights per se.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lux

i don't agree with you in that ivan was just using that to sell. in russia, people didnt buy that, they never defended themselves as "oh we're lesbians/not lesbians" in their native country. the russians loved the music and found the image amusing.

if that is such a common fantasy, why didn't it sell in the west? it barely sold in the united states, where men are completely obsessed with girl on girl action. i'm sure its similar across the planet except no one uses it blatantly as a marketable image.
This is a fascinating point. I thought about your question and my theory is that Tatu's popularity was inversely proportional to how seriously people take sex. Anglo-Saxons, and particularly Americans, are notorious for taking sex seriously and for caring about authenticity. Most Russians, on the other hand, don't take sex so seriously or care about being lied to. The Japanese also don't take sex seriously or worry about authenticity. Most Europeans are somewhere between the Russians and the British. Anglo-Saxons generally didn't get the joke (even most of the Anglo-Saxon fans), while Russians did. Anglo-Saxons couldn't appreciate the humour because they think sex is a serious thing.

Tatu was a joke, but I think it was a joke with a point. I was reading an article in the New Yorker about the Yippies, who derived their ideas about political protest from Dadaist and Surrealist art techniques. The stunts, the use of shock tactics, the joking are all reminscent to me of avant-garde art.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lena410
Rob, I agree with you. They have/had the right message. It changed things. Honestly tatu never changed. They had those we have bfs one day and we are lesbian the other day talks all along. They never started something they didn't finish. People just saw what they wanted to see and still do.
I think that is very true. The trouble was that people took it too seriously.

What shocked me, though, was Lena saying in Anatomy that she thought what they were doing was sinful. I thought that was very damaging.

Last edited by simon; 17-02-2004 at 15:26.
 
Old 17-02-2004, 15:30   #108
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Originally posted by Rob
They won't turn their whole lives back just because Y/L are in a f/m relationship.
Who's the woman (f) and who's the man (m), I wonder? Despite Lena's long hair and her womanly curves, and despite Yulia's tomboyish good looks and her incessant swearing, I'd nevertheless say Lena=M and Yulia=F ? I could be wrong, though. *goes to ponder this*



xena225
 
Old 17-02-2004, 15:48   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
What shocked me, though, was Lena saying in Anatomy that she thought what they were doing was sinful. I thought that was very damaging.
Did she say that she thought what they were doing as tatu was sinful? I always thought that she said that in a neutral context. She could have meant her whole life being sinful. I never quite understood how she meant that so I never was that much bothered with it. I mean I can't judge a statement when I don't understand it.

xena Lena is not the man *shakes head* no way *laughs*
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 17-02-2004, 15:55   #110
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Originally posted by Lena410
Did she say that she thought what they were doing as tatu was sinful? I always thought that she said that in a neutral context. She could have meant her whole life being sinful.
Yes, the context was quite unclear. I agree with your assessment.

xena225

P.S. Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you.
 
Old 17-02-2004, 16:55   #111
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Originally posted by simon
That doesn't mean the message was genuine.
Well .. English is my third language ..

Lena looked like a 'man' in Japan ..
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 17-02-2004, 17:11   #112
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Sigh, i can't believe you're all back in that discussion again.


:: rolls eyes and backs away ::

I don't need to get involved in this....
 
Old 17-02-2004, 18:05   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by xena225

P.S. Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you.
LMAO the funnest joke I have heard today
 
Old 17-02-2004, 23:12   #114
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I can't believe we are having this discussion again, either. I would like to know why the girls lied so often though. The interview Lena gave after Eurovision (on Radio 1, UK) was quite something ! To me that means there is no real message or inspiration for young gay women left. They could have said they were going through a phase and moved on with some dignity. One more lie wouldn't have made much difference !

As for this reality show ... Just remember they were No 1 here this time last year. Just what has happened ?!

Thanks Kat for your translations and everyone else of course.
 
Old 17-02-2004, 23:19   #115
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Originally posted by nikki
I can't believe we are having this discussion again, either. I would like to know why the girls lied so often though. The interview Lena gave after Eurovision (on Radio 1, UK) was quite something ! To me that means there is no real message or inspiration for young gay women left. They could have said they were going through a phase and moved on with some dignity. One more lie wouldn't have made much difference !
What did Lena say in the interview on Radio 1?
 
Old 17-02-2004, 23:56   #116
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Yeah...I was always confused by what Lena meant too. I was never sure if she meant the life they were living - like the lies and deception or something else.

I must say, I find all this amusing. I mean they were always vague and never gave straight (no pun intended) answers. And, to me, they're still being pretty vague - like they're playing us. Also, the whole message thing - yeah, it always existed and still kinda does - the reasons behind it doesn't matter; just the fact that it's there. So, I think ppl should stop over analyzing these things too much and just sit back and enjoy.

* If you think about it, it's pretty funny. *

(BTW, I think the lack of success in the west was the fault of the media)

- Just my opinion...I'll go back to my shell
 
Old 18-02-2004, 02:04   #117
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Gay fans may not be more important than straight fans, and both gay fans and straight fans were hurt by the events of those last months, but gay fans were hurt to a much deeper level.

Some gay fans *did* come out because of Tatu, they were looking up to them as role models, they thought Yulia and Lena had been through what they were going through, showing them that it was possible to live your gay love openly like straight people do (and it can mean something as simple as holding hands in the street despite the fear that it may trigger a violent reaction from people around you). Those fans took a huge blow when they realized that their role models were fake, that they had never experienced themselves what they were talking about (Lena talking about the problems they had with their parents because of their relationship... what a mean joke!).

Now i know that some of you think that those fans have only themselves to blame, they shouldn't have believed such an "obvious" joke, they only saw what they wanted to see and for you Yulia and Lena were in fact always "honest" in their ambiguity.
Think what you want, it remains that those fans are *still* deeply hurt and sometimes even more confused than they were before they knew Tatu. Those fans were often alone, struggling with their sexuality with no one to talk to about it, Tatu was for them a window that showed them that there was some hope, now they feel that they are back in the dark.



As for homosexuality becoming more acceptable, well, a gay man was burn alive because he was gay a few weeks ago here. There is still a long way to go, and Tatu certainly aren't helping anymore.
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 18-02-2004, 02:14   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon
The main fan base was teenage girls, not dirty older men (that's only here on Tatysite ). I think the explanation for their success is the one Ivan gave in the Ptyuch interview - two girls in love is the most emotionally powerful image and it plays on the secret fantasies of teenage girls.
Teenage girls? Were they? I think the genious idea behind the project was always it's appeals to ALL the layers of society. Literaly everybody could find something for themselves, something to indentify with. Yes they were oriented towards teenagers (I wouldn't say that towards girls per se), but not more so then any other artificialy made pop band (infact I think that even less so.)
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 18-02-2004, 02:19   #119
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simon - i see your point. i wonder whether americans take sex seriously AND are obsessed with it..that leaves no room for ambiguousl-queer-but-not-anymore pop duos

xena - LMFAOOO@your joke.


i agree with denial the message is clear, doesn't matter what kind of agent carried it, like a movie. although as much as i used to want to believe they might have been partially genuine, i still think they had a pretty close relationship.
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Old 18-02-2004, 10:14   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by xena225
Lena is SO the "man". Don't let the boobs fool you.
she's not yuls the man *nods* believe me
~~~~~~~~~~~
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