USA - General discussion (Part 1)

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by luxxi

And why do you care what they do after US is out? Isn't that whole point of sovereignity? Freedom of choice?

All that would make a lot of sense if there was no terrorism and the terrorists were really noble fighters resisting an occupational conflict. In your mind you may think it is so

And for you any regime not doing what Us wants is hostile.

You got that right!

I told you. "Yankees out." Beyond that they don't have goals.

I find it hard to believe.

So you are now saying insurgents have support of population?

when did I say that?

WRONG!!!!! Main Aq beef with US was US presence in Saudi Arabia. Palestine became issue much later.

Whatever takes their fancy.

Because smaller jihad is defence of your home from invasion.

Was 9/11 "defense of your home from invasion" too?

No, everything was open ended. After elections, after situation clears.... And there were never palns for compelte withdrawal. there was to be US presence in several bases.

There will be a US force, of course, working in collaboration until this whole mess is sorted out. We don't want psychos jeopardise the security of the whole world, and if that requires US forces in Iraq for a while, as they are in other countries, so be it.

[Kate]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

ha science 101 .... that statement which i quoted in my previous post here... is one big reciting of a cnn article ... but who cares anyways, RIGHT?

So? I said it was a CNN article, didn't I?

Originally Posted by cooasfcuk

Why cant you take criticism? Criticism is a good thing ..... and you want my opinion?
Ok... its been said by people already... its a bunch of horse shit! I myself also cannot watch those debates - id rather go watch some theatre/movie - at least even the worst actor does a better job. And as Kerry might be just annoying by politicians default... Bush is just .... disgusting - I cant stand looking at the guy - let alone trying to hear what he says... i get in a rage and start yelling at the TV ...

People only say it's "horse sh1t" when they don't have an opinion at all. So, obviously you have nothing constructive to say at all since "you don't care" about this debate. Maybe it's better that you keep out of this thread then, and not upset people with your useless comments.

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

Of course it matters who its going to be... but the fact of the matter is - both are BAD. it just happens that Bush is the worst case in the world!

Besides... do you realize that those people .... those debates you watch...are 2 marionettes in front of your eyes. do you think the one that wins would be the ONLY one in charge of USA? absolutelly NOT.. and i just find it hard to understand how are people supposed to vote for a single person when they (the chosen one) can pick whoever he wants for his/hers office after they have been elected

and we can go one and on...

see... its not as easy as night and day...or as you put it... not a direct quote but something in the lines of: Bush is dumb and Kerry present himself as a politician....

Are you quoting the encyclopedia of common sense to me? Why? Why would you do that? Don'y you have better things to do with your time then say what everyone already knows?

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

thats why I hate politics... so I give it a rest lol ... I cant vote right now in america anyway... so i will just watch

Most of us hate politics, so cry me a river. We are all stand-by observers, but at least we are speculating, sharing news articles and expressing opinions. You, on the other hand... I don't even know what you're doing... Whatever it is, it's better that you quit now.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by katbeidar

Offtop:
luxxi, I think you should drop the attitude and debate calmly like spyretto and I did yesterday. He and I share different views, but when he expressed his opinions, I didn't feel offended. But your wording just crushed the atmosphere, I'm sorry to say. Please try to be careful with the words and phrases and tones you use. This is a political thread, and even though I know it's hard to stay out of fights here, I don't want it to turn ugly.

And what did I say that offends you?

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by spyretto

All that would make a lot of sense if there was no terrorism and the terrorists were really noble fighters resisting an occupational conflict. In your mind you may think it is so

And it would be a lot easier for you if yo could dismiss insurgents as some wackos and terrorists without lgitimate complaints.

Originally Posted by spyretto

I find it hard to believe.

Blinders can be b*itch.

Originally Posted by spyretto

when did I say that?

You said they don't inform ont hem because they are muslims. So are they having support of Iraqis or not?

Originally Posted by spyretto

Whatever takes their fancy.

You are right. Why studying things in details when some stereotypes can save a lot of time.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Was 9/11 "defense of your home from invasion" too?

No. Did I say it was?

Originally Posted by spyretto

There will be a US force, of course, working in collaboration until this whole mess is sorted out. We don't want psychos jeopardise the security of the whole world, and if that requires US forces in Iraq for a while, as they are in other countries, so be it.

No, not until this mess is sorted out. Indefinatlly. Those were the plans. Invade, install puppet gov't and withdraw most of forces and keep rest in few bases.

[Kate]

Offtop:

Originally Posted by luxxi

And what did I say that offends you?

It's not what you said, by how you said it. "Offended" is probably a bad choice of words, it was more like "upset". Never mind, just treat people's opinion with respect in the future.

[freddie]

OK I won't reply to anyone. There's WAY to much replying going on around here and I get confused.

The basic dispute here seems to be wheter the Iraqe people themselves consider the fundamentalist as legitimate freedom fighters or not. My opinion is that they don't. Maybe they have then the fight was still sitiated on the battle-grounds, but now when they're starting to behead inocent civilians... no civilized human being, doesn't matter if his family was killed, his country invaded or freedom taken would EVER approve of something as hideous as the fundamentalists are doing.
Furthermore I do belive that Iraqis are stupid. They KNOW what awaits for them if the fundamentalists take power. Maybe it'd be even worse than Sadams regime. We could have another Afghanistan on our hands. Despite of their hatred towards America or Christians they have to think about their own well-being first. And I don't belive the majority in Iraq thinks they'd be better of under the extremist Islamic regime. Especialy since Iraq has a large Christian popultion which would be DOOMED under such a regime (Sadams regime wasn't radical islamist in it's nature. I think Osama Bin Laden even labeled him as "an infidel".)

The answer to the question why Iraqis don't expose the radical groups and give leads to the US soldiers (I bet they do, but not as often as one'd like), might be in the fact that they are simply intimidated. The groups might as well have local people living under a constant fear of immediate execution at slightest suspicion of treason. 2 Iraqis were accused of giving out information to the US sources and were beheaded in the usual manner and their videos put online. For future intimidation. Very effective I'd say. It's the same reason for which no one wants to testify against the mafia.

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by katbeidar

So? I said it was a CNN article, didn't I?

Obviously we arent on the same page on the issue, (or maybe you just dont wanna hear what im saying) so we will drop it, yeah?

People only say it's "horse sh1t" when they don't have an opinion at all. So, obviously you have nothing constructive to say at all since "you don't care" about this debate. Maybe it's better that you keep out of this thread then, and not upset people with your useless comments.

No dear, think about it in your 'conctructive' way... or at least read it somewhere or have your mom tell it to you ... 'it's horse shit' is an opinion ....just as valid opinion as 'it's the most important issue in the world right now' ... yeah?
I do care about the debate... but i guess i will have to say it in simple words for you to get it: for me, debating with you is like debating with the newspaper!

Are you quoting the encyclopedia of common sense to me? Why? Why would you do that? Don'y you have better things to do with your time then say what everyone already knows?

If i quote something i put it in " " ... it is up to me what things I want to do and not, dont you think, dear? for someone as insecure as you ... that really doesnt have any opinion about anything of their own, but bases absolutelly everything on someone else's view or expectations.... it is perhaps good to say and repeat what 'everyone knows' anyway, dont ya thank? we can then be on the same page.... and even maybe.. if i do say something that youve already read on a piece of paper or off the internet, maybe i will even get some respect from you! hurrah! ..... or maybe i should list extensive background check.. on what and who my father is.... and then i will get the respect from you....

Most of us hate politics, so cry me a river. We are all stand-by observers, but at least we are speculating, sharing news articles and expressing opinions. You, on the other hand... I don't even know what you're doing... Whatever it is, it's better that you quit now.

Im sorry ... what do you want me to quit? I am doing exactly what I want to be doing ... im sorry it is not explained in a book what im doing so you arent understanding it... do you want me to do that so that you can understand?

Today is not a day to argue with me, dear ... so maybe it was about time i also said it to you... like others have.... just because you come from an educated family doesnt make you a genius, yeah? it is not the thing that is going to make me 'WOW' and respect you tremendously, and take anything you say as a very educated opinion - is that what you expect... because why else remind us every 5th day about it....we've read your comments x amount of times ... and even though most of the time i do feel bad about how insecure you are, it does reach a boiling pont, and you should be reminded to step down from your cloud. - that of course having nothing to do with the topic in here... but i just felt it was about time I said it out loud... for that, a mod's duty...

coolasfcuk: 1 warning

[Kate]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

Obviously we arent on the same page on the issue, (or maybe you just dont wanna hear what im saying) so we will drop it, yeah?

No, let's not drop it. Do explain yourself.

As for the rest, now you're just being rude. Take a chill pill.

[thegurgi]

i've always believed in peoples right to debate... but usually when i feel it's going to lead to something or change something. But in this case, this whole topic seems to be getting more and more closer to something completely inane. I read every comment here, and as probably one of the few born americans speaking on this thread (as far as i can assume)... they just anger me. None of it seems very educated cause they only go by the statute of "i read, or heard or saw" which i don't think is very filled with wisdom (cause you can't really trust the media). In fact, nothing said has come from any bit of that (haha, and neither is this)... all i'm saying, is maybe we should talk about, the ELECTION or maybe the issues that are driving the voting patterns of the people who will be voting. and may i just say that "the war" isn't the biggest issue. It's the economy and jobs.

[Unplugged]

Offtop:
coolasfcuk, I'm sorry, I like you and all, but you're acting in a really unnecessary way. Kate has her own opinions, and concerning other quotes or material, she always mentions the sources. So just because you're having a bad day or something, doesn't mean you can just accuse someone of being false, especially without proof.

[Kate]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

None of it seems very educated only on the statute of "i read, or heard or saw" which i don't think is very filled with wisdom.

Well, tell me which other way we can structure our debate? Hhhmmm... the only media available to us with information about what's going on is the articles and videos on the Internet. We don't even get the coverage of the U.D. elections on TV news here in New Zealand. What else do you expect?

Originally Posted by thegurgi

may i just say that "the war" isn't the biggest issue. It's the economy and jobs.

To people outside the U.S., "the war" is the bigger issue. Well, to me science is slightly bigger, but in general it's about "the war".

[thegurgi]

Well, the people outside the States aren't the ones voting for. We're going to vote for our own well being. We don't really want to be in this war either, but we also want to keep our jobs.

To me, as well, science is the issue for me, i'm voting for social issues, not economic. Stem Cell, Abortion, Gay Stuff, the rights of, you know, people.

Just have faith in the people to do the right thing. Those voting for the economy will probably vote for Bush, but those who are voting for social reasons will most likely vote for Kerry. It's as simple as that.

[Kate]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

Well, the people outside the States aren't the ones voting for.

Doesn't mean we can't debate about it.

Anyway, this is supposed to be fun. Let's take it easy, y'all.

[thegurgi]

you can... but it's completely pointless, especially if you're going to upset people

[Kate]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

but it's completely pointless, especially if you're going to upset people

Well, what's the point of discussing Tatu? Lol. It's fun. I don't know about the others, but I'm trying not to upset people.

[spyretto]

we started so we'll finish

Originally Posted by luxxi

And it would be a lot easier for you if yo could dismiss insurgents as some wackos and terrorists without lgitimate complaints.

And why should I take heed of the alleged "complaints" by someone like Al-Zarqawi ( who defies all laws of warfare, shows no respect for innocent human life at all and would go as far as to abduct children and behead them as "enemies of "Islam" were he able to ( we've already seen worse in Chechnya, haven't we? ). Such barbaric acts pertaining to the Middle Ages have no place in the civilised world. The problem is how you fight such wackos and psychos - oh yeah they're wackos and psychos alright. You don't drop a bomb and blow everything to smithereens, that's for sure. That would be a wacko reaction, indeed.
Who can deny that Islamic fundamentalism and extemism fuels such inhumane practices, while hard-line muslim law encourages acts that are simply barbaric and anachronistic?

You said they don't inform ont hem because they are muslims. So are they having support of Iraqis or not?

What kind of evidence do you have that the Iraqui people back the terrorist groups? Where? In Basra? Mosul? Badgad? Or in some areas that are not under the US and interim government's control yet? Who may be supporting the terrorist groups? Apparently those who have a reason to support them, those who must have lost the power they enjoyed under Saddam Hussein. I doubt whether the vast majority of Iraquis oppressed and imprisoned under Saddam Hussein would want to help either side. I gather they are simply intimidated by the continuing violence and I can't imagine they would side with either the Americans who they have every right to see as occupiers - that's what they appear to be in their eyes - or the insurgents.

No, not until this mess is sorted out. Indefinatlly. Those were the plans. Invade, install puppet gov't and withdraw most of forces and keep rest in few bases.

Gross stereotype. You see, one can't refrain from using stereotypes just to maintain one's arguments, innit??

[Unplugged]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

but it's completely pointless

Why is it pointless? Debating is never pointless, even if you can't change events, it is good to exchange ideas and express yourself.

So, if Americans are the ones who are voting, it's pointless for others to talk about it? So Americans can even invade a country and tell them how to create a society, but we should just watch the whole thing silently and shut up? Do you think this is strictly America's business? Unfortunately, it is not. It is a World issue.

[ypsidan04]

Has this been posted before?

Global Vote 2004

Basically a way for people outside the US to voice their opinion on the election to the American public, which will learn of how this vote went 48 hours prior to the election here.

[Kate]

ypsidan04, thanks. I voted! No need to guess for whom.

Interview with Eminem, if any of you are interested. It's about his anti-Bush song. Lol.

Eminem Slams Bush
Source: RollingStones

RS: You get deep into your feelings about President Bush and Iraq on “Mosh.” Do you think the Iraq War was a mistake?

E: He’s been painted to be this hero and he’s got our troops over there dying for no reason. I haven’t heard an explanation yet that I can understand. Explain to us why we have troops over there dying.

RS: There is no good answer.

E: I think he started a mess. America is the best country there is, the best country to live in. But he’s f**kin’ that up and could run our country into the ground. He jumped the gun, and he f**ked up so bad he doesn’t know what to do right now. He’s in a tailspin, running around like a dog chasing its tail. And we got young people over there dyin’, kids in their teens, early twenties that should have futures ahead of them. And for what? It seems like a Vietnam 2. Bin Laden attacked us and we attacked Saddam. We ain’t heard from Saddam for ten years, but we go attack Saddam. Explain why that is. Give us some answers.

RS: Are you voting?

E: This is the first year I’ve registered to vote. And I’m gonna vote. Bush is definitely not my homie, but I’m still undecided. Kerry has been known to say some things that’s caught my attention, made a few statements I’ve liked, but I don’t know. Whatever my decision is, I would like to see Bush out of office. I don’t wanna see my little brother get drafted. He just turned eighteen. I don’t want to see him lose his life. People think their votes don’t count, but people need to get out and vote. Every motherf**kin’ vote counts.

RollingStones interview with John Kerry, HERE: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/6562106

[haku]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

Global Vote 2004

Wow, there is a Socialist Party in the US? I thought that was illegal or something, lol.

That would be good for the US and the rest of the word if that country was run by socialists for some time.