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13-08-2008, 19:20 | #141 | ||||||
Martian Eyes
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b) It wasn't accumulation of power, it was just plain unbearable corruption. Georgia at that time was one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Quote:
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You see, Misha did! But wait! No! It was one of his doctors, a psychologist and FSB double (or triple, whatever) agent, who hypnotized him: "Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...!" Yeah, that's it. There's no other possibility. |
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13-08-2008, 21:14 | #142 |
Прохожий
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People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!! |
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14-08-2008, 08:10 | #143 | |||||
Sad Little Monkey
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I'll just answer to parts that aren't plain bickering. :P
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You can't have "unbearable corruption" without your own people maintaining control over the whole whole political & social spectrum of the country. Just like Zimbabwe. Tripartite organization of the government is intended for that purpose exactly - different branches of the government controling each other. State-wide corruption can only be achieved once you've taken control of all three of these branches.. Quote:
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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14-08-2008, 10:58 | #144 | ||||
Martian Eyes
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Look for yourself. Do you really think that I would comb through the paper archives of a dozen newspapers all around the world, just to prove for you, what everybody else who ever followed the current history of Georgia has read already more than once? What you can find about him in no time is for example, that he lowered down the age of full legal responsibility for crimes to 12 years and forced school children to visit jailhouses, where people with death penalty sentences were kept, just to show them where they will land if they became criminals. Drug tests for all people in administration jobs and the like. His numerous outbursts of fury for quite minor reasons and his regular panic attacks can't be so hard to find too, and that he is an egomaniac isn't a secret too, you have just to read! If you read what I wrote, you would know where I read it, from New York Times! An article about ambivalent messages from the Bush administration, telling different things in personal talks and in public speeches, which gave Saaki the impression that he would have unparted and far-reaching support whatever he does. It is interesting to note that Burdzhanadze was called for a visit to the USA almost immediately after her decision to resign. A person who has no more influence in Georgia's politics was invited for talks by the president, the Secretary of State and by delegations of both Senate and House of Representatives. When she came home she announced to build up a think tank for the further development of the country (sponsored by the United States). This proves that the US don't want to lose this important moderate politician under any circumstances, even if she is just working extra parliamentary. The US are completely aware that they can't continue their politics in Georgia with Saakashvili alone, too much obstinacy and unpredictibility, and all other politicians with 'weight' in this country have become lost the last few years mostly under strange circumstances. There are no alternatives inside the government party and no ones in the heavily splittered opposition, so there's no way around Saakashvili. The public support of the allies for him should not mislead, he is by far not the darling for the west. Quote:
There are no real motives, if we see it as a Caucasus problem alone. Noone could win anything from the war, and that was clear from the first moment. Russia would lose the control over the renegades to the UNO forces, the latter would suffer the consequences of the war and their self-determination under the Russian protection was at least temporarily satisfying, this would be gone, if other parties interfere (not so much the population, but the leaders = war lords), the Georgians would lose completely the control over these regions and the NATO membership would be postponed for many years. The EU has invested much money in vain, the repair will cost more and more and their military involvement will be inevitable. The USA can't be interested in more control organs in the country, where they had almost a monopole, the problems aren't solved, the carefully built up bridges between Russia and USA (which are for the USA even more important than for Russia) are now at risk. No, there seems to be no reproducible motives 'inside' the Caucasus problem and other ones are just wild speculations. The most probable explanation is, that the crisis was a self-runner of the conflict parties around the cities of Gori and Tskhinvali. What were just occasional shootings at the end of July became critical on Aug. 1st, when even the peacemaker troops began to shoot against each other. Then Saakashvili lost his nerves... |
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Last edited by Argos; 14-08-2008 at 11:13. |
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14-08-2008, 11:15 | #145 |
Can You See Them Now?
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I'm not even bothering to read most of this thread anymore - thoroughly at least. The last page and a half have been nothing but fictional stories and poorly drawn conclusions responded to with blatant fact and competence. There is no need to discuss if everyone is going to use a different version of what should be the same history book.
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14-08-2008, 11:39 | #146 |
Sad Little Monkey
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It's funny how you're trying do discredit my sources, yet apparently celebrate articles that your viewpoint as the ultimate triumph of journalistic integrity.
During the Yeltsin days there was a lot more tension between the US and Georgia (Clinton expressed some far more bitter remarks than what you claim Condolenzza Rice, -who came to Georgia to reaffirm it's partnership with the country - than there were as the transition of power occured in the Kremlin, which indicates to me Ed had much stronger unofficial ties with Yeltsin than he did with Putin. But that's my take on the matter... ... unlike your take about Burdzhanadze's visit to the States which is pure conjecture. Yeah she was invited but only as a notable political figure in the region, not because they were trying to disassociate with or even shun Saakashvili. And I'm not even going into that whole matter of "strange disappearances" of politicians, eventhough I know exactly what you're implying, but that's hardly worth a discussion. Regarding the motives... c'mon. A few posts back you tried to invent American motives yet you don't see any Russian ones at all? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Think real hard... think why Russia could possibly have anything to gain by unsettling a pro-western government that risks having NATO alliance right at their doorstep. They've been pretty clear on this issue a while back when the question of Ukraine joining NATO arose. I think it came as no surprise when Russian representatives almost suffered a group-epileptic seizure at the prospect. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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14-08-2008, 13:14 | #147 | ||||||
Martian Eyes
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Infact the best Russian position was the status quo before the outbreak of the war. Keeping constant tension in the region, sometimes more, sometimes less, but cause nothing, that could change the whole situation. This weakens Georgia, makes the energy projects of EU-USA complicated and laborious and deters NATO to pick up Georgia in their alliance. To get rid of a western friendly government is out of question for Russia, they don't have supporters in Georgia, and the western countries and interest groups are already way to much involved in the whole process of modernising Georgia. The train has departed long time ago. Even dreaming about it would mean that the Russians have totally lost their reason. Ukraine is distinctly different. Here they have still much support from population and political structures. Russians see at least a chance for turning back the wheel of time, but as a matter of fact (well, you can prove the opposite, if you like), the west has much more to offer than the half totalitarian neighbour, who has never seen the other CIS nations at their own eye level. It may take longer, but it's unavoidable. Ukraine will be part of the western community, and there is no way Russia can stop this. |
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14-08-2008, 14:11 | #148 | ||||
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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15-08-2008, 13:05 | #149 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Another related development:
Ukraine imposses a decree restricting the Russian Black Sea fleet, after Victor Yushchenko returned from a mass-raly in Georgia supporting Saakashvili. It just further underlines the clear and present danger a loose coalition of pro-western ex Soviet republics can pose to Russian ambitions of regaining the status of a reemerging superpower. Also on that note Poland and US sign the missile shield agreement. A similar deal has already been put in place with Czech Republic. I personaly don't agree with these deals involving the US building missile shields on EU territory, but it's also a sign of the times and another hint why Russia would be so adamant trying to keep as much ex-Soviet territory pro-Russian as possible. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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15-08-2008, 21:03 | #150 |
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American Citizens Caught in Georgia During the Attack Speak The Truth. Watch the Reaction of FOX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia |
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15-08-2008, 21:15 | #151 | |
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ETA: A very interesting, (though slightly biased) article on the popular emergence of global totalitarism / panslavism and why aggressive American post 9/11 politics has been a big contributor to it's rise. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Last edited by freddie; 15-08-2008 at 21:33. |
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15-08-2008, 21:42 | #152 | |
Martian Eyes
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15-08-2008, 22:11 | #153 | |
Sad Little Monkey
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It's obviously an American documentary, highlighting an interview with Eric Margolis - and he certainly seems well ballanced; also criticizing not only Putin's Russia but also the USA. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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15-08-2008, 22:25 | #154 | |
Martian Eyes
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About your quote about slavic names above: Kokoeva is a typical name in the Caucasus, just russified name, and Tedeeva is russified too. I know one linguist (who wrote about comparison of Ossetian and Georgian language) born in Tbilisi with the same name (in Georgian Tedety), again just russified, and Korewiski shouts for an explanation offside the slavic idiom. |
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15-08-2008, 22:41 | #155 | ||
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And that exactly was my point. The bias! Anyone can spew a whole shit-load of articles and documentaries that'll support their (sometimes even radical) ideologies. Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname did it. So did Mr. People-of-the-world! An inside micro-view of the Russian-propaganda-machine hard at work. On a macro level it looks pretty much the same except more pronounced. And then you have equally biased people on the other side drawing stupid hitler moustaches under Putin's nose, claiming Russia's building a secret missile defense system in Cuba. They're all silly. That's why I always say it's great to build one's opinions based on a whole multitude of factors and sources. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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15-08-2008, 22:55 | #156 | |
Martian Eyes
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15-08-2008, 23:26 | #157 |
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After several days of silence, during which he was criticized for not taking a stand, President Klaus made his views clear in an interview for Czech Radio:
“Once again people are closing their eyes to the reality – and creating myths. I did not make a strong statement because I refuse to accept this widespread, simplified interpretation which paints the Georgians as the victims and the Russians as the villains. That is a gross oversimplification of the situation and I would have to write a lengthy article to explain why I do not share this view” Mr. Klaus said further that in 1968 Czechoslovakia did not attack Subcarpathian Ruthenia and in his view the pro-reform Czechoslovak leader Alexander Dubček did not resemble President Saakashvili in word or deed. The Czech head of state who strongly advised caution over the matter of acknowledging Kosovo’s independence said that the situation in Georgia had been crucially influenced by the separation of Kosovo from Serbia in February of this year, and that with the separation of Kosovo, Russia had obtained a strong justification for its action. He said he did not share the view of Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states that Georgia should be given entry to NATO to prevent further attacks from Russia. Mr. Klaus indicated that this would only further aggravate an already complicated situation. http://www.radio.cz/en/article/107261 |
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16-08-2008, 01:32 | #158 | |
Sad Little Monkey
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This is from the same site as Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname's article. Basically confirms what I've said about Russian feelings towards NATO expansion and it's connection to the present crisis. Veronika Kuchynova Smigolova and I think alike. However I do agree with president Klaus on the subject of Kosovo independence complicating things in Georgia. It does give Ossetia & Abhazia an internationally justified discussion right on this topic, but no way in hell does it give Russia justification to do ANYTHING let alone invade another country and bomb it's capital. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Last edited by freddie; 16-08-2008 at 01:46. |
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16-08-2008, 15:30 | #159 | ||
Martian Eyes
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Regarding this clip with 12 year old Kokoeva: It was interesting to see how the TV station tries to manipulate the viewers by affecting them emotionally with the fate of a child, but immediately (and very unprofessionally) shut them up when they talk about things which were not in the interest of the channel. Even if the girl was a Trojan Horse - you have to swallow the 'toad' to give at least the pretence of a neutral and unbiased news coverage, but here you have to be quite simple-minded if you don't see the channel's intentions and it's lack of interest in expression of free speech. ...which proves once again: Daily News TV - 'journalism' (everywhere) is the lowest possible form of journalism, and even slobbery paparazzi, who try to take some snapshots from a celebrities' pubic hair are honorable men compared to that scum, which is responsible for the TV news. Quote:
In case of Georgia - the renegade 'republics' didn't even try a way together with Georgia. This is where I would blame the international community most, and the EU in particular (because they don't have direct military/strategical interests like the superpowers), that they didn't try to force the conflict parties to at least negotiate earnestly and find solutions for the main problems. And to give a party, which is heavily involved in the whole conflict, the control over the situation is simply stupid and irresponsible. |
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Last edited by Argos; 16-08-2008 at 18:31. |
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16-08-2008, 18:05 | #160 |
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Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname liked this BBC video http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=49wOzZdWWYM Saakashvili eats own tie
Saakashvili run away in panic http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9565/979234nn8.jpg http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3933/sakamo3.jpg |
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