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02-06-2005, 21:38 | #101 |
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what common euro heritage?
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03-06-2005, 00:40 | #102 | |
Sad Little Monkey
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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03-06-2005, 12:01 | #103 | ||
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I guess they expected that elites will decide about constitution and people will vote yes because they were told to vote yes. Quote:
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03-06-2005, 12:08 | #104 | ||
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. Last edited by freddie; 18-12-2005 at 20:44. |
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17-12-2005, 11:55 | #105 |
Hatırla Sevgili
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Hey!
I've been a member of this forum for more than a month and did believe that most of the members are open to positive ideas,modern and non-politic people,and one day(today)i had a look at the previous threads and when i saw the EU thread i felt lucky to learn what the european members think about our country's long(since 1962) adventure in front of the door of EU.I knew that our participation would be the most topic that has been the most arguments on.I also knew that some members would be against us,but i never thought that those people would say politely that we shouldnt be admitted in the european community. First,we actually are european country since the period of ottoman empire.at first times there were wars against ottomans,this time these wars are in the tables. and i cant figure out why some people think we are lack of human rights,political strategies of eu.Once upon a time these ASIAN land couldnt be shared among the most powerful european countries.now since lozan which we got our independence back,these countries still are trying to have opinions to get this country down and to make this country their land.but now this is not invasion,but things and problems like cyprus,kurdish and armenian.you cant say no cos weve known such things about that.we here live with kurds,and i cant figure out why it is being a problem over there,if its a problem,it must be aboutus,cos since 1982,some kurdish illegal organisations are trying to found a kurdish country in the turkish land.we lost many(over 30.000)soldiers over this problem about PKK.and i also cant figure out why western countries refuse to see it. i wanted to write more but i gotta o to my course,i ll continue my post |
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Dudağımda yarım kalan söylenmemiş son sözümdür... Baki olsa da ayrılık, Aşk her daim ölümsüzdür... Varsın eller gönül yarası kapanır sansın, Kabuğun altında sevgili sen kanayansın... |
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17-12-2005, 13:51 | #106 | |
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I won't even go into the facts that Turkey is not a democracy, regularly violates human rights, illegally occupies the northern part of Cyprus and won't even recognize the existence of the Cypriot state even though that country is now an EU member state (Which puts us in the ludicrous situation to have a candidate to EU membership that illegally occupies EU territory! This is unacceptable.) But even if those issues were resolved, it wouldn't change anything to the fact that Turkey is not a European country and should never be allowed to join the EU. |
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17-12-2005, 18:20 | #107 | |
Hatırla Sevgili
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ouuuuuuuuch!how come you say that we occupie the north cyprus?and how come you say that we dont have democracy?have you ever been to here?i dont think so,if you once came to here you would see how nonsense your thoughts(not opinions)are.i can say without any doubt that turkey is in europe(even though we werent admitted in the EU),has a total democracy since Mustafa Kemal Atatürk(have you heard of that man?i dont think you ever heard of him,if you ever did for just one time and tried to know what he did in turkey,you would see how much youre saluting Turkish people) but anyway,we(i mean turkish people) arent so willing to enter your christian club but will always try to better than what we are now.If some of us want so,it would not be because of economical profits or something like you told in your previous posts,,it would be becaouse of improving theirselves.and you(i mean people like you)dont want to accept the reality that your fathers did in the 15th century and make up stories like so-called armenian genocide(yea,thats what we call it),which makes us just laugh. |
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Dudağımda yarım kalan söylenmemiş son sözümdür... Baki olsa da ayrılık, Aşk her daim ölümsüzdür... Varsın eller gönül yarası kapanır sansın, Kabuğun altında sevgili sen kanayansın... |
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17-12-2005, 19:09 | #108 | |||||
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The Armenian genocide is not 'made-up', between 1 and 1.5 million Armenians died, all historians (except Turkish ones of course) agree on that and it's certainly not a laughing matter. Anyway, i see that Turlkish propanganda is still fully working on its own people, from 'we did not invade Cyprus' to 'there has never been an Armenian genocide'… denial, denial, denial. |
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17-12-2005, 19:23 | #109 |
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The EU is no democracy either. I do not see much ways for European people to fight laws which are somehow spit out in Brussels neglecting the consequences of concerned people.
The EU does nothing to give minorities (smaller states and provinces) equal rights. They have to accept, what Brits, French and German have played out in their private cardgames. And this all since the foundation of this club, I do not think that Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are on the wrong way not trying to become a member of this crazy institution. Turkey is for years the much better democracy, even if they have a long way to fix their many problems. |
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17-12-2005, 20:27 | #110 | |
Hatırla Sevgili
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are you from france?then you might know that all french historians have decided to suggested to go back from a mistake not to accept the lie.
let me tell you the truth,when russia opened a war against turks,armenians sided for them(once upon a time when turks opened a war against the byzantine,they sided for turks)and started to take action against turkish people(i mean raping women,killing the old and children,not so big,huh?)then the german commander told the ottoman government to get armenians a safer place.then the famous law has been realesed(can be discussed if its right or wrong).then armenians were about 1.620.000 people.then they started to leave their places and there were sickness,war and kurds that has been fighting against eachother then in 1918 they came back to their home.there were losts for armenians but not soooooooooo big like they tell now.true historians(not populist ones,like justin mccarthy)say that its about 500-600 thousand.and if you had known the meaning for genocide,which has been defined after the WW2,you would have seen that its not a genocide.but you seem not to know it.Then if youre from france and follow the media,you would see news that 19 french(not turkish) historians have founded a group with the slogan freedom for history and wanted the government to remove the laws about armenian genocide(like you say) Quote:
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Dudağımda yarım kalan söylenmemiş son sözümdür... Baki olsa da ayrılık, Aşk her daim ölümsüzdür... Varsın eller gönül yarası kapanır sansın, Kabuğun altında sevgili sen kanayansın... |
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18-12-2005, 13:17 | #111 | |
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And if the Armenian genocide wasn't a genocide what was it then? What term would you use for what happened? Massacre? Not to say Turkey is not a democracy and stuff but being a bit commonsensical would really do the trick. If you think that the EU is no good then why struggle to be part of it? Turkey has enough conflicting influences and interests on its own to stay independent. |
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18-12-2005, 21:14 | #112 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Armenian genocide is a FACT. Saying it wasn't is just as ridiculous as the current president of Iran claiming that holocaust was a myth. You can't argue factual evidence which is supporded by mass majority of experts everywhere. If anyone can be pronounced as populist it's those who claim that it wasn't a genocide. Claiming this is also supporting a daft notion that the whole world somehow conspired against Turkey, making it look bad in the eyes of the international community. Plausable? I should think not.
That being said I do think that Turkey (in reasonable time) should be granted entrance into the EU. Yeah, there are still some human rights issues and their democracy certainly isn't perfect... but lets not forget that the foundations of the EU stem from economic factors at the core... and I don't see any reasons why Turkey would somehow failed to contribute to the economic growth of the entire continent. It's just economic reality - we NEED Turkey. It's still just business with it all comes down to it. And since many people stumble upon Turkey's loose democracy - lets not forget that EU's "democracy" is still a very formal entity. It works de iure, but not de facto. We all know that that despite equality of every EU member in reality big countries have informal means of "persuading" smaller, less significant ones to turn their way in certain political issues. No one knows that better then us - new member countries. So I think we should rather fix our own shortcomings before criticizing potential future members, in order not to sound hypocritical. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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18-12-2005, 21:21 | #113 | |
Ice_Cream
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Tatutaty: "Horny Rachel is her name. Masturbating is her game. Fucking, sucking, licking too. Wouldn't you like some Rachel screw? *batteries not included*" PuddleQueen | Rachel | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ rm6405@hotmail.com ] My music playlist on Last.fm |
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18-12-2005, 21:43 | #114 |
Sad Little Monkey
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We all look past human rights issues on a personal level while buying cheap junk Made In China, ignoring the fact an average Chinaman works in a factory exposed to impossible conditions 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for $100 a week, thus enabling us to buy stuff cheap. Money makes the world go around. It's sad, but it's also a reality.
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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18-12-2005, 22:33 | #115 | ||
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Anyway, my opposition to Turkey is based on the fact that Turkey is not a European country, even if Turkey was the greatest democracy and the richest country in the world, i would still be opposed to its membership. Actually, if the EU was solely a free trade association (like the EFTA), i wouldn't mind Turkey's admission, but the EU is much more than that, i don't want Turkish MPs in the EU parliament pushing conservative laws that we will all have to follow, i don't want my tax money to fund Turkey's development, i find ridiculous and extremely dangerous the idea that the most powerful, most populated EU member (and therefore the member with the most MPs in the EU parliament) would be a *non*-European country, this would be a tremendous threat to European freedom and values. Quote:
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18-12-2005, 23:32 | #116 |
Sad Little Monkey
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To be more precise European Coal and Steel Community and then eventually European Economic Community was largely created with a purpose of making money. Even the name tells a story. Of course there were other positive side-effects of this - mainly preventing Germans from reeking havoc upon the Earth again. But there were other measures taken to literaly castrate german war machinery in that respect - the only reason why this was named as one of the reasons for establishing EU was paranoia of some specific nations that post WW1 scenario might repeat itself. Imo... it couldn't, anyway. But make no mistake. Money always was and always will be the main motivation in this and ANY international community. Regional peace and stability? Sure. But first you need money and economic stability to achieve it.
I don't get what exactly a "European country" means. What is the criteria to achieve that? Cultural? Regional? Historic? Religious? For instance Russian territory extends through a vast part of Asia, yet it's culture is recognizably European. So as far as the territory's concerned Russia's more Asian than European for instance. If it's a religious and cultural criteria you're targeting then for instance Bosnia which is predominately muslim would never be accepted as well. Either way you look at it, it's a very elitist viewpoint. And regarding Euro equality... I was talking about the EU comission. Every country has (or at least had till now) one member in it... EU commision is the one proposing laws and writing basic outlines for new legislature. Does that stop the wealthiest (yes, the wealthiest, not the biggest... otherwise Poland would have a huge say in these "informal agreements" that are happening in EU policies every day) countries from literaly manipulating other "lesser" nations, when it comes to their own self interests. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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18-12-2005, 23:47 | #117 | |
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Turkey has come a long way from being a muslim fundamentalist state; there's clear separation between church and state, and they have their noses towards the West, in both Europe and America, rather than to the East. The question is with regards to the Asian portion of Turkey - and it is a very big part indeed. Ok, they had their vices before, siding with the Germans and all but that doesn't count for anything. We're talking about modern Turkey here - and the modern Turkey too has European roots. Unless of course you consider as Europe only your middle Western European buddies, the Germans, Austrians, Belgians etc. Why don't you just admit that you're a bit scared of them overpopulating your country - as it stands you have enough problems with the Arabs and the Africans there and their rather dubious equal rights. Oh wait...those are not Europeans either, are they? My opinion is that admitting Turkey into the EU might actually be a good thing and might even bring about prosperity and stability in the whole region, also make the EU extremely powerful economically. But there are a LOT of issues to be discussed until that can become a possibility. |
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Last edited by spyretto; 18-12-2005 at 23:58. |
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19-12-2005, 00:19 | #118 | ||
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Turkey belongs to a totally different civilization, it is already difficult enough to make the EU work with countries that share a common cultural background without adding a totally alien country to the mix. Quote:
It will certainly be a sweet revenge for Turks to see that after the failure of the Ottoman empire to conquer Europe, they managed to do it through our own institutions. |
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19-12-2005, 00:47 | #119 | |
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As about Europe being strictly defined by those races that you mention, well, I'm sorry, these are clearly NOT all the races that occupy the land known as Europe. It's also irrelevant whether the Turks belong to the European races; as long as they occupy a part of what is considered the European continent they're European. By the same analogy, we should just deport all those European citizens who do not comply with your definition of European races. How about the EU citizens who are Indians, Arabs or Chinese, what about those? |
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Last edited by spyretto; 19-12-2005 at 01:08. |
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19-12-2005, 13:22 | #120 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Exactly. Amber that definition you made of a Euro country - that's YOUR definition. We don't have to be limited by political, religious, territorial or any other kind of boundaries. And it's common sense as well that Turkey IS historicaly inevitably connected to European past. It's not like we're accepting Syria or Lebanon. What if Israel would want to join once as an European enclave? It would make sense since the country was founded on jewish immigrants as a direct result of holocaust. What would we say to them in that case?? They're not European enough? Semitic nations have no place inside the EU? That'd be boderline nazi. But it would have to be said, since same standards would apply to Turkey.
And regarding Turkey becoming the most influecial member: first of all - like I sad, the most influencial country is the one that's the wealthiest. If population would make a crucial difference in the realms of EU politics then Poland with the population of 60 million would be 10 times more influencial than Slovenia with 2 million. And it's not. Yeah Turkey will have a lot of seats in the parliament, but since when was that crucial? EU parliament has extremely limited powers, while the comission has a rotary system anyway so no fear the "evil empire" will take over the legislation. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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