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04-05-2007, 13:14 | #81 | |
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За неоценимый вклад Last edited by tanrah; 04-05-2007 at 13:59. |
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04-05-2007, 18:53 | #82 |
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And tanrah wrote a few posts back that he/she didn't fall for propaganda, but I sounded like an official from the Communist Party propaganda department.
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05-05-2007, 03:34 | #83 |
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Thank you, simon and haku for explaining Estonia's history. There are so many facts and opinions in which la aurora is wrong, that I can't answer to all of them separately. But I think that the most important fact is that Estonia was not 'occupied' by USSR, Estonia was occupied and in even twice, in 1940 and in 1944. In 1940 the Soviet troops invaded Estonia and a marionette government was organised here by Moscow.
In 1944 when the Soviet troops invaded Estonia the second time, Estonia had actually declared independance. German troops had left Tallinn, we had our own government and our own blue-black-white flag in the tower of Toompea, Pikk Hermann. The Soviet army teared it down and replaced it with red flag. And the terror that had started in 1940 continued during all these years. No one in Estonia lived happily in "a big Soviet family". Estonian children were not brainwashed by Soviet propaganda, because they had their memories from their parents and grandparents, who had suffered from deportations and imprisonments. Estonians remained Estonians and were proud of it during all these 50 years. As for the riots in Tallinn last week ( I was away and I could not see it myself), the police did not attack innocent and peaceful demonstrators, as Russian media tries to depict it. Police attacked when the vandalizm and robbing started. You can see yourself what happened in Tallinn: drunken youngsters are beating windows, burning shops, stealing and robbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBeKUgFI13s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQR-IqdmIRo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7FfUzj0Dw I believe you know that the youth organisation Nashi terrorised Estonian embassy in Moscow and tried to attack our ambassador. Also attacks to Estonian government servers are executed from Russian government and Kremlin IP-numbers. So, please don't be naive and think that Russia was not behind it all. It all was a well-organised intelligence operation, directed from Moscow, paid by Moscow, organised by local activists and provocators. Estonia behaved as a state that is ready to protect itself. I am proud of it. |
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05-05-2007, 08:33 | #84 |
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Linda16,
sorry. I do respect your feelings and can see where some of your points come from but still I don't agree. Both governments are involved in this for their reasons and either can be fully believed. I do put the word 'occupy' not to make it look like whole Estonian nation was dreaming to become a part of USSR days and nights. That's not true. I do put this word in quotes as we have yet to define this term regarding some countries of Eastern Europe and Estonia in particular. Unfortunately I have some urgent work at the moment that I need to finish but once I'm done, I'll get back here and explain what I mean exactly. So don't hurry to argue with arguments you haven't yet heard. Claiming whole Estonia was absolutely against joining USSR is as wrong as claiming the opposite. Your country has a complicated history and your population couldn't make up your mind quite a lot back in years. There were people that were fighting on Hitler's side against bolsheviks as well as there were people that did the opposite. There were supporters of joining USSR as there's a whole lot of historical, economical and mentality reasons for that. And you can't claim everyone was unhappy because the picture wasn't as bad as your current historics make it look. Don't forget that quite a lot of people in your current government that started all this anti-soviet hysteria weren't exactly rebells hiding in forests. Ansip for example was building a nice happy career and showing effort no one forced him to show. I don't buy this 'it was organized by russian government' stuff. It goes against logic. 1. Was it Russian government to come up with the idea of removing the monument? Estonia was living on the bomb for a while. It's an obvious mistake (or was it intentionally?) of your government who had to know that good half of their own population will go crazy over this. Their were absolutely no surprise in reaction of Russia either. This was rather obvious after all the fuss that that law itself was surrounded with. Or were your authorities forced to do that? 2. Were they forced to do it so close to 9th May knowing how high the level of russian patriotism gets at such moments both in Russia and Estonia? 3. Was it russian government to put majority of ethnic Russians in position of aliens, that don't have even basic rights? This monument story was just a last drop that got the party started but reasons for all this lay in previous events. Those people basicly don't see what they can lose in this situation. 4. Was it Russian government to put words in the mouths of your authorities and to pay for anti-russian publications in some big estonian papers? Or don't you yourself hear that there's absolutely no respect for russians as nation in this situation? Don't you hear how they all keep calling russians nothing but hooligans and maradeurs and constantly repeat how it was Russia to organize this mess, how we want to tear your country apart with nationalistic ideas? Where is at least a slight concern for the feelings of half of your population, where's realization that those people do feel hurt? Why is it that it's only feelings of Estonians that are taken into consideration? I'm not even saying about respecting those feelings and acting on them, but I've yet to see even a basic realization of the fact those feelings exist. And the last thing. Look at this objectively and see who really benefits from this situation? What does Estonia get from this and what could Russia possibly count on? Estonia got the chance to once again play a victim and get attention from EU and NATO. It was rather obvious who's side those organizations would take. This brings Estonia closer to getting protection from NATO (for example military bases on your territory). It brings Estonia closer to their goal of international tribunal equaling Nazi and Soviet regimes and making Russia paying compensations for the past. This idea is quite popular in several countries nowadays. It helps to justify revanchistic and nationalistic ideas your current government is so fond of. It helps to create an image of 'bad' Russian to justify position of Russians in Estonia in particular and this whole 'Estonians and other people' ideas. Russia couldn't count on getting any kind of countrol over Estonia. We are talking about independant country, member of EU and NATO. Any plans of this kind would be just absurd. Russia gets even worse relationship with the West after this story which doesn't exactly helps us to join VTO. Russia gets bashed in world media and falls even lower in the eyes of ordinary people like public opinion on us wasn't bad enough. Both countries suffer economically. It was obvious that that reaction of Russia was coming as it's the only measure we can take in current situation. While it's of course more painful for Estonia, still it doesn't benefit Russia either. We don't earn money on breaking relationship with you, we loose them. Both governments benefit when it comes to inside political situations. It creates the image of the outside enemy that gets public attention off other actions of the government, the wave of patriotism and nationalistic ideas gives additional points to authorities that ride that wave. But selections in Estonia are much closer than ours. Now while I totally disagree with the idea of haku and simon being able to give an objective look on the history of USSR and Estonia for the reason of never being here when all that was happening, I can trust them in giving non-baised opinion on situation that requires common logic. If you, guys, are able to shave away the image of 'poor ocuupated Estonia' and 'evil authoritarian and agressive Russia' for a bit and look at this situation from the point of logic, that would be really cool if you could give your honest opinion on who's responsible for events in Tallin. I really don't like seeing all those fights in Tallin. It hurts my feelings just as much as yours. This shouldn't happen. But 'drunk youngsters and maradeurs' is the position of your authorities. I'm sure there were a lot of young people in there as they are always most emotional and agressive when it comes to such situations. And I never said this was a peaceful protests. But can you honestly say there was time and reson for peaceful demonstrations? Did those people actually have a chance to be heard? Majority of them aren't even citizens of your country. They had nothing to lose. Claiming all of them came there only for the sake of stealing, robbing and breaking anything is just another way to totally deny right of ethnic Russians to feel deeply hurt but this decision of your government. 1/3 of all people arrasted that night were ethnic estonians, younf citizens of your country. It's still a big question who organized what there. There were cruel methods used by your police to stop 'maradeurs'. There are quite a lot of reports on russian-speaking forums that hardly come from our government as they are much more descriptive than version of our media. quite a lot of people were beaten and arested for no reason. Many of those were teenagers. I won't say that some of it couldn't be fabricated as I'm quite aware of professionalism of our FSB. No one is going to do anything about it but sending official request for investigation. I hope international community won't ignore this one. It just suprises me how demonstrations in Moscow and St.-Peterburg were met with such a fuss and our police was blamed for cruelty. And at the same time western media pretends not to notice worse things when it comes to EU. I wonder what a big scandal it would be if story like this one appeared in media and how fast would it be in every paper of the world was it Russian police to be accused of those things (the article is from Finland. The heroes of it are Germans. But probably it was also paid by Russian government. Finns are so on our side when it comes to that war ) Nashi were using their democratic right to express their opinion. There was police there and people were being arrested for extra-agression. Of course there couldn't be any kind of serious fight when authorities of the city, police guys and demonstrates feel pretty much the same. I suspect that actions of authorities weren't too strict but that doesn't mean everytone could do everything and get away with it. It's also wierd to claim it was organized by authorities as similar protests are happening near in every region of the country. I don't really see anyone around who doesn't feel offended by the action your governmnet took. Would be wierd to expect people bringing flowers to your Ambassy and would be wierd to expect authorities using brutal force against people they share similar feelings with. In case of attack on the servers, it sounds fishy. Anyone could say anyone but it would be wierd to do it from Kremlin IP's, don't you think? We aren't that bad with computers here. I guess your government should request official investigation on this by the 3rd side. If this investigation proves this really happened, you should insist on punishment for the guilty ones. I will just applause you for that and boo the idiots you did this. But for now this is just another trick used in informational war that is happening now. |
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06-05-2007, 02:09 | #85 |
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la aurora, let's define at first where we are coming from. I am an Estonian, but I'm here, on this forum, because I'm a fan of a Russian girl band. Besides this I am fascinated about great Russian literature, I consider Dostoyevski one of the best writers in the whole world, I admire Mikhail Bulgakov’s “Master and Margarita”, I find Viktor Pelevin to be a genius. I can very well make the difference between Russian culture, Russian people and the politics of Russian government. I know, la aurora, that you are a smart girl, because I liked your posts when you wrote under the nick sunny posion . Therefore I’m trying to explain the situation further. And also for all the others who are reading this thread.
Russia has never totally accepted that it lost Baltic States in 1991. Estonians were lucky in the early 1990s because we managed to get back our freedom without any blood, although Russian tanks were also in our streets. Throughout 1990s and early 2000s Russia has bullied its neighbouring states separately – Georgia, Moldova, Latvia. Now it was Estonia’s turn. Read these articles, they give an objective picture of what happened and the political background of it: http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudise...hp?id=15822956 http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudise...hp?id=15822932 The infamous monument stood silently in the middle of our city for 15 years. On the 9th May Soviet war veterans gathered there, but Estonians did not pay much attention to it during all these years. Until last year, it was not just old veterans who gathered there, there were also young men with red flags, aggressive and shouting communist slogans. You know, it is not very pleasant sight to see red flags in the capital of an independent state. The monument was politicised suddenly. This created discontent among Estonians and groups of Estonians started to gather there with Estonian flags, which caused fights and collisions. Soon after that Nochnoi Dozor was created, a organisation of young Russians. Some of the people related to Nochnoi Dozor were also activists of Interfront movement in early 1990s – a organization of Russians who opposed Estonian independence. Nochnoi Dozor was definitely supported by Russian government. The monument became a place that created disturbance and disorder in the city. It was a symbol, but I’m absolutely sure, if there had not been Bronze Soldier, then some another statue or place would have been politicised. So, it became quite obvious already last spring, that Estonia had to move this monument, for showing that Estonia is an independent state. And for showing that Russia does not have power over Estonia, telling us what to do. The removal of the monument was only a matter of time. Perhaps the timing was not the best, summer would have been better, when people are on vacations. But, the demonstrations against it were definitely organised by Russia and with the help of local provocateurs. Certainly, there were a lot of people who were present out of curiosity. However, if you look at the videos of the marauders, you see that even young girls rob the shops. I repeat, the videos that Russian media shows, depict only demonstrations and police. They don’t show the vandalism. Actually, the city was in total chaos, the crazy mass destroyed everything in its way, shouting Rossija! Rossija! And only after that police (in my opinion even too late), attacked and arrested the vandals. I was abroad during the riots and the information I got from home was really terrifying. My only question was – where is the police? And when the police managed to restore law and order in the city, it was a real relief. Estonia managed to resist Russia’s plotting this time. In these two days of April, Estonia did not render to Russia’s dictations. We saved our state. |
Last edited by Linda16; 06-05-2007 at 02:45. |
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06-05-2007, 15:36 | #86 | |
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With Putin we are now once again dealing with an imperial Russia with territorial claims on its neighbors and bullying tactics, and that makes all the difference. The Russian official rhetoric is now strikingly similar to what was coming from the USSR when i was a teenager, it's pretty much the same political line with simply 10 to 15 years of detente between then and now (and since we are on a Tatu forum, Tatu's short success in the West will probably remain a symbol of that detente period). Those who had warned already in the early 90s that we would have a short window to spread and consolidate democracy to Eastern Europe before Russia would revert to an authoritarian regime turned out to be absolutely right. |
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06-05-2007, 16:51 | #87 | |
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You sound pretty much idealistic when talking about 90ies and collapse of USSR. Are you aware that those heros of the era that released poor East European countries later admitted it was a mistake? And they actually had a lot of reasons for that? Or do you probably realize how much pressure from the West were they getting when making those decisions and what a mistake it was to do exactly what they were pushed into without thinking about hundred of important things they had to think about? What they did wasn't exactly good for most of East European countries. And it's funny how now we went back to imperial Russia that suddenly becomes an ethalon of evil. Will we go even deeper in history now? What's next? As far as I know, Yeltsin started Chechen War. Putin started none. Bullying attacks and territory claims... I wonder if we are really as bad as you make it sound, because if we occupied any of our neighbours lately, I'm not informed. What I see now is not soviet rhetoric, I hear rhetoric of cold war. You are basicly creating an image of a big evil enemy of humanity now. No wonder you thought the same about USSR. |
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06-05-2007, 17:36 | #88 | |
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The relationship between the other countries and Russia were so good in Eltsin's time, because every country had their profit from Russia's decline, but not the Russian people. This is now a movement in the other direction. It's time of retaliation of all involved parties but when they have seen that it doesn't bring benefit, then reason will have a chance again. Patience and foresighted policy is necessary now, not accusations, threats and revenge. When Russian policy can work relaxed, then democracy and good relation with their neighbours will follow sooner or later. |
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06-05-2007, 20:39 | #89 | ||||
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Meanwhile, most of the former satellite states and the Baltic states had a rather different experience. There was economic contraction and a lot of pain, but not on anything like the same scale. There was corruption, but the states did not become kleptocracies. Fairly functional democracies were extablished with normal party systems and alternation of power between parties. After several years, the economies started to recover. They joined NATO and EU. Russia was headed down a slope to social implosion when Putin became president. But, luckily, the price of oil and gas, Russia's main exports, stopped falling and rose to be unusually high. Putin then took back Yukos and used that example to frighten the other oligarchs into paying taxes. The other European countries in the USSR didn't have many natural resources. They remained headed in a very frightening direction. In Georgia and Ukraine there were popular revolutions inspired by the idea of getting off that track and onto the track the central Europeans had followed. But Putin's Russia doesn't want more countries to go down the Western route. The West was wrong to back Yeltsin so enthusiastically. It was apparent early on that he was pursuing very flawed policies, but there was a mistaken assumption that things would work out in the end. Actually, they ended up discrediting the idea of democracy in Russia. Quote:
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The pretext for starting the second war was the apartment bombings. It's interesting that soon after the last of those bombings Russian police caught FSB officers planting such a bomb in another apartment building. The FSB said it was just a training exercise, but it does seem rather suspicious. It's also curious that many people in Russia who have tried to investigate those bombings have been assassinated. Quote:
This new cold war is different from the old one. Russia's big new weapon isn't its armed forces, it's gas. Turning off the gas has already been used against Georgia and Ukraine to force them to pay Western rates as they were no longer Russian allies. Most countries formerly in the Soviet bloc are completely dependent on Russian gas and as North Sea gas runs out western European countries are beginning to rely on it too.The spectre stalking Europe right now is fear that Russia will turn off the gas supply to exert political control. It's already done it to Georgia and Ukraine. Who's next? |
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06-05-2007, 21:28 | #90 | ||
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Mostly agreed, but there are a few things I see a bit different.
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Georgia got more and more important for the USA and EU, because of the oil-pipeline projects from the Caspic to the Black Sea, but the conflicts could not be solved. Russia stopped the support for Adjaria, their most distant trouble spot, to give Georgia the chance to show, that they are able to solve the ethnic problems peacefully and in consent with the population. They failed. So Russia is no more willing to cooperate with Georgia. The conflict between Russia and Georgia escalated. My view to this: The USA and EU were far too long only economically interested in Georgia, not politically. Their efforts now, to join Georgia to NATO and EU, is just another affront to Russia, solving the ethnic problem in 'ingesting' Georgia into their realm. Quote:
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06-05-2007, 23:33 | #91 |
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Some more information about the timing of the Bronze Soldier's removal. In my last post I presented an opinion that summer would have been a better period for this action. However, today a interview with one Estonian intelligence analytic was broadcasted on TV. Estonian intelligence had made clear that the biggest riot was planned to be held on the 9th of May this year. For this revolt also a lot of weapons - knives, chains, brass-nuckles, masks - were procured. Fortunately, as government acted faster, then during the two days of April the organisers had no time to provide all rioters with weapons, so there were less casualities, than it would have been during the 9th of May. So, I will take back my words and say that the timing was right.
And of course, the Bronze Soldier is not destroyed, but only relocated. It stands now in the military cemetary: Here |
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06-05-2007, 23:44 | #92 | |||||
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07-05-2007, 19:24 | #93 | |||||
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1931 Abkhazia became part of Georgia. The use of the abkhazian language was forbidden, repressions, Georgians were again invited to settle in Abkhazia ... After Stalin's death the ethnic minority got many lost rights back, which caused much annoyance among the Georgian mayority. 1991 Georgia became independant and adopted a new constitution without negotiations with the autonomous regions. Then Abkhazia declared itself independent. The next months saw much unrest, ethnical, religious and political ones. When Russian transports were robbed a few times, they demanded from the Georgian government to solve the problem and guarantee safety for Russian transports. The Georgian army came there, freed all prisoners (what for?), who in turn began to loot, preferentially ethnic Abkhazians. From that moment the situation escalated and the Russians began to support the rebels. The victory was not so much caused by Russia's intervention, their troops were quite small at that time, but because of the chaos in the Georgian troops. When they fled, the ethnic Georgians joined them, far before the Abkhazians could reach them. Most of the war-crimes happened to the remaining Georgians after most of them left the country, it could have been much worse, if they remained there. Since 2002 the Abkhazian government tried to convince Moskva to associate with them, to have a customs- and currency-union and to station Russian troops in Abkhazia, Russia only granted the last request. But since 2006 Russia seems to change it's politics. Quote:
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In 2003 massive opposition raised against his corrupt regime of nepotism and despotism. Abakhidze could only survive with the help of Russian troops, but then Putin and Saakashvili met and made a deal (guaranteed full autonomy of Adjaria and Russian troops will no more support Abakhidze). Iwanow told him to resign and the rest was only formality. The full autonomy did not hold up longer than two months. This was the end of Russia's cooperation. Quote:
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Therefore it's time to loosen the tension, to plan a long-term partnership and to play the cards face up. Putin may handle the current situation in some way, but the next president eventually may not. A cold war with Russia costs Europe even more than Russia. |
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08-05-2007, 06:25 | #94 | ||
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Becouse Georgia in fact is the state depending on Russia. The budget of Georgia is being formed by investments from Georgia sitezens working in Russia. So we have all possibilities to do with Georgia "goverment" all what we want. EU is not an authority for Russia - and EU bandit polycy to destabilse region is really danger for Russia. Quote:
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08-05-2007, 12:02 | #95 | ||
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10-05-2007, 01:05 | #96 |
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Some more information about Estonia. The 9th of May, the celebration of Victory Day - was peaceful in Estonia. Russian people went to the military cemetary, to the new location of the Bronze Soldier, and placed flowers at the foot of the monument. A lot of policemen were in the city, but no collisions or bigger violations of the law did happen. We all really hope that the anxious times are over and we can continue our normal life.
An interesting article about Russia's strategy was published in Eurasia Daily Monitor. |
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11-05-2007, 23:33 | #97 |
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I wasn't quite sure where to put this but here goes ... the article mentions the Moscow Gay Pride March and Alexey Mitrofanov. Have a look at the site it comes from too, there is some interesting stuff about the March.
Russian State Duma Deputy: “Gay Parade in Moscow Should Be Authorized” Alexey Mitrofanov warns Russian deputies they might be denied access to European countries ... Russian State Duma deputy representing Liberal Democratic party and deputy head of the Duma Committee on constitutional legislation Alexey Mitrofanov said on Friday that Moscow authorities should allow the public actions of sexual minorities planned for the end of May because their banning will lead to very negative consequences for Russia as a country. Alexey Mitrofanov said during morning debates in the Duma that “As became known to me, a notification for the conduct of the manifestation in support for tolerance towards sexual minorities will be filed shortly”. He stressed that at the level of emotions one can have various attitudes towards “these groups of our electors” but my personal attitude to them is “polite and balanced”. Alexey Mitrofanov suggested that “there are no reasons to ban such manifestations – we must acknowledge that”. Liberal democrat deputy is convinced that in case Moscow authorities ban such manifestation it will provoke very negative reaction in the West. He said: “And we will lose all Strasbourg cases on this issue and then we will be surprised that some persons or deputies will not get entry visas to the European countries”. Organizer of Moscow Gay Pride Nikolai Alekseev welcomed the statement of deputy Mitrofanov calling it “a very brave political step”. He stressed that “unfortunately we very rarely hear such balanced and politically responsible statements concerning homosexual people from Russian politicians. Today’s statement of Alexey Mitrofanov is a statement of the politician who is looking into the future and who sees Russia as a democratic and free state where the rights of all citizens irrespective of personal characteristics are respected”. Nikolai Alekseev added that “Alexey Mitrofanov knows very well that LGBT community is a big electoral resource which has not be used by any political power in our country. I want to believe that the time has come when the situation will start to change and the views of gays and lesbians who are equal citizens of Russia will finally be heard in the political process”. Organizer of Moscow Pride invited Alexey Mitrofanov to take part in the forthcoming conference as part of Gay Pride in any suitable position, as a participant or as an observer. Press conference dedicated to the second Moscow Pride coinciding with the official application to Moscow Mayor will take place in Russia’s capital on 15 May. Source - http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=9152 |
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12-05-2007, 10:03 | #98 | |
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12-05-2007, 15:21 | #99 |
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Mitrofanov is an opportunistic bastard, a few years ago he proposed to the duma a law that would send lesbians to jail because they were a threat to Russia's birth rate, and now he's gay friendly? This smells of electoral positioning for the LDPR, it remains to be seen if Russian homosexuals also think that annexing Finland and Alaska would be a good idea.
Thanks for the article nikki |
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12-05-2007, 15:35 | #100 |
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Electoral positioning by being gay-friendly? How is a reactionary, ultra-nationalist party going to win votes by being gay-friendly? Especially in Russia. If anything, this is going to cost them votes.
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