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18-10-2006, 15:11 | #901 |
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US officialize Special Military Tribunals
This is a pivotal step fo the US. First of all because the US have now given themselves the right to put on trial non-US citizens for (alleged) crimes committed on non-US soil, and since at the same time the US do not recognize the International Criminal Court and refuse that US citizens could be tried there (the US have gone as far as to threaten to invade The Hague, Netherlands if a US citizen was ever detained there), the US have de facto put themselves above the UN and international law and effectively extended their judicial sovereignty over the entire world (superseding the International Criminal Court). Second because those tribunals will be allowed to use evidence obtained through coercion (torture) against the detainees, which of course pretty much annihilate the US credibility as a human rights advocate worldwide, how will the US be able to condemn a country for using torture in its jails (and look credible) when they allow that very same thing at home? And third because it creates two categories of detainees, those with rights, and those with less rights (you can keep quiet if talking could incriminate you if you're in the first category, you will be tortured to make you talk if you're in the second category; you have the right to a fair and speedy trial in the first, you can be detained for years without charges in the second; you have the right to see the evidence against you in the first, you can only see what they allow you to see in the second, etc, etc, etc). It's easy to see how law enforcement can use this as leverage when they arrest people. |
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] |
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18-10-2006, 20:41 | #902 |
Sad Little Monkey
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That article says torture or any acts that would constitute as war crimes are prohibited...
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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18-10-2006, 21:48 | #903 | |
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Quote:
And what is the difference between torture and coercive questioning? Well, we don't really know, the US president can decide alone which questioning methods are torture and which are coercive questioning. We do know that coercive questioning involves violence on prisoners. So let's see, is the NYPD for example allowed to use coercive questioning on a murder suspect? No. Why? Because it's torture. So the same questioning methods that are illegal on US citizens because they violate their rights are allowed on non-US citizens detained in Guantanamo. Why? Because non-US citizens are not human? No other democracies in the world would allow the questioning methods used in Guantanamo (and certainly not the British which are their closest allies, not even when they had to figth the IRA, not even when they had to fight the nazis), they all consider those methods as torture, the US have crossed a line here. And i'm really worried when people consider that violent interrogation techniques like sleep deprivation, forced hypothermia or waterboarding are not torture, seriously. Other frightening news today: the US have adopted a new space policy which is paving the way for them to take military control of space. "The United States will preserve its rights, capabilities, and freedom of action in space... and deny, if necessary, adversaries the use of space capabilities hostile to US national interests." Obviously once the US have military control of space and can deny access to space to other nations, we will be all screwed and they will have won. |
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] |
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18-10-2006, 23:52 | #904 |
Sad Little Monkey
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But there IS a clear definition out there of what torture and war crimes are (we've had those ever since the the end of WW2) and it strictly says that coercive questioning involves all things which are not by definition torute or war crimes. Coercive questioning can mean a lot of things, but one thing it cannot mean is torture. No one can redefine international standards for what torture is.
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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19-10-2006, 00:36 | #905 |
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Sorry, freddie it's common knowledge that the U.S. uses similar interrogation and propaganda techniques as their enemies do.
That's why they don't have many free-thinking sympathisers around the world, people are really fed up with that "holier-than-thou" attitude of theirs. |
19-10-2006, 03:32 | #906 | |
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Quote:
The police is not allowed to use coercive questioning on suspects because it violates their rights, the army is not allowed to use coercive questioning on prisoners of war because it violates their rights, so surely, if neither the police nor the army are allowed to use those methods, it means they clearly violate human rights. So why are those same methods considered acceptable when used on 'enemy combatants'? (A status which is not recognized by the international community) Why are those people entitled to less rights (if any rights at all) than other people? There is no justification. You know better than i do (you've studied law right?) that any confession or evidence obtained under coercion or duress will be declared null in a court of law, any judge will throw it away. Also, a defendant has the right to remain silent if what they say could incriminate themself. Those are basic principles of the western judiciary system, and those principles are violated everyday in Guantanamo. Guantanamo detainees will be convicted using confessions and evidence obtained by force from them, those evidence would never hold in an American tribunal, and that's why the US need to create those special military ones to secure guaranteed convictions no matter what. There's a fundamental reason why the police is not allowed to use coercive questioning on suspects (besides it being inhumane), it's because people are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and western democracies concider that using violent techniques on someone who may be innocent is not acceptable, that's another of our basic principles. And that principle is also violated everyday in Guantanamo, and here we're touching the root of the problem, Guantanamo detainees have already been declared guilty even though they've never been charged of anything, they were declared guilty the day they were sent to Guantanamo, and from there, anything done to them became acceptable, the US have managed to convince themselves that violating the human rights of a guilty person is not nearly as bad as violating the human rights of an innocent one. Those special military tribunals won't judge, they will simply sentence pre-guilty people to death. |
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] |
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19-10-2006, 16:28 | #907 |
Sad Little Monkey
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This is the direct quote from that article:
The bill forbids treatment of detainees that would constitute war crimes - such as torture, rape and biological experiments - but gives the president the authority to decide which other techniques interrogators can use. OTHER techiques. Implying torture is de facto excluded from president's choice of desired interrogation techniques. If coercive questioning would also mean torture this bill would be opposing itself which is ridiculous. I'm not saying there aren't any legal issues with it. Far from it. Anytime a country starts using sui generis law which to an extent opposes international practices there are tons of legal problems. But international law isn't like the law of a country. It's not followed or forced upon in such a represive manner since we're dealing with different legal subjects here (countries as opposed to people). It's often a matter of diplomacy and adaptation rather than strict following of guidelines (as we know through it's young history UN had a bucketful of resolutions and declarations breached, with no real consequences, but rather settling matters through appeasement policies from all sides). International law tends to be problematic by default since you can't force a soverign country into doing something it doesn't want to (North Korea and Iran are nice examples of this). I think the biggest problem US is facing regarding bills like this one is the fact these detainees have deficient court rights. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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19-10-2006, 17:59 | #908 | |
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Well, i've received a lot of work and i don't have much time, but before i leave i just wanted to post this text from Amnesty International detailing exactly how the Military Commissions Act is a grave violation of human rights.
Quote:
This is the page on the Military Commissions Act and how it violates human rights. And this is the portal on human rights violations in the Guantanamo camp and the so-called "war against terror", a real eye opener. |
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] |
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19-10-2006, 20:15 | #910 |
Sad Little Monkey
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Exactly. I like Amnesty International myself. They're a credible organization, even for pro Americans. And I never denied everything the US does is in full compliance with international law. But not being in compliance with international law regarding the status of foreign detainees is different from accusing someone of systematic goverment lead and condoned torture when the bill clearly states it is infact not admissable. I'm sure there have been torture techniques implemented on prisoners at some point, but those were isolated incidents which weren't goverment condoned and were AGAINST the law... and people were put on trial for it.
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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01-11-2006, 23:35 | #911 |
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Truck and SUV sales on the rise again in the US thanks to cheaper fuel. At least the true objectives of the war in Iraq are giving positive results for the car industry.
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] Last edited by haku; 02-11-2006 at 01:47. |
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02-11-2006, 17:45 | #912 | |
black cat
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A color blind person may ignore someone's description of a rainbow |
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02-11-2006, 18:11 | #913 |
Sad Little Monkey
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At least Toyota Prius is still popular.
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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07-11-2006, 13:38 | #914 |
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George W Bush told the American people to vote Republicans for congress because "the country is at war" and only the Republicans know how to handle war. How can one deny such a crudely put yet so undeniable fact? Only if one is in denial.
It worked for him before and it should work again |
07-11-2006, 19:16 | #915 |
Sad Little Monkey
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What else is he going to say? War against terror is his leit motif. it's what kept him in the office for the second term. He needs that "war" as much as islamic extremists need him. It's a grotesque symbiosis.
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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07-11-2006, 19:46 | #916 | |
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All that remains to be seen is for how long this will keep the Republicans in office. Ending the war is not in their best interest, that is to say. |
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08-11-2006, 11:12 | #917 |
Gaga ftw!
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I would just like to point out that the recent elections prove that Americans are sick of Bush and we want him out. Nancy Pelosi (who is sure to be the first female speaker of the house) has outlined a first 100hours agenda for the house in 2007. Including an overhaul of the entire Iraq policy.
I'm just waiting for the stupid media to declare Virginia and Montana Democratic before I start celebrating a democratic sweep of the Senate also. But they're just delaying the inevitable. So don't under-estimate Americans. We're not all nascar watching, beer drinking morons... only the ones in the south. |
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Alexander EPIC!!!!!! Velvet ropes and guitars Yeah, cause you're my rock star in between the sets Eyeliner and cigarettes |
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08-11-2006, 19:12 | #918 | ||
Bitchka
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see spy, there is pretty big chance that Republicans will take a huge double loss ... wow, you didnt want that either, eh? |
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oh... o! |
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08-11-2006, 19:23 | #919 | |
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What I Think Tank I have started a blog that aims to concentrate its content on politics, economics and history, with a keen interest in American politics and the American tradition of Libertarianism and Austrian Economics. |
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08-11-2006, 19:47 | #920 | |
Gaga ftw!
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Alexander EPIC!!!!!! Velvet ropes and guitars Yeah, cause you're my rock star in between the sets Eyeliner and cigarettes |
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