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25-01-2006, 17:37 | #61 |
Ice_Cream
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Offtop:
I don't think there is a need for me to say anything else when you post stuff like that. You've already made a %"&(%$ of yourself enough times. |
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25-01-2006, 17:51 | #62 |
"... I love birds"
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Offtop:
bit late on the topic here, what do you mean by "butchered english" |
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25-01-2006, 17:54 | #63 |
pie crust
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25-01-2006, 18:19 | #64 | |
"... I love birds"
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I need some of them.. work is stressful today |
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25-01-2006, 19:34 | #65 |
My Waking Hour
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English is a stupid language anyway, what other language would make a clear distinction between beach and bitch for example...so I don't mind if it's a bit incomed...I mean butchered
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25-01-2006, 21:30 | #66 | ||
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Well, i didn't know it was Ebonics, to me it was (and still is) just bad grammar and spelling, and i'm not the one who decided to call that "Ebonics". But i'm not especially targeting Ebonics, i could say the same things about Cajun French which is quite horrendous (but i've read that Quebec has been sending teachers to Cajun land to teach what they call European French to the younger generation of Cajun people, so there is hope) or Haitian "French" which has actually become totally unintelligible to French people and can no longer be called French. Quote:
That's why i personally make the difference between a slang and a dialect. A slang is a class phenomenon, it develops in an underprivileged population because of a lack of proper education, the general structure of the language gets heavily degraded not because of a normal process of evolution, but simply because of the ignorance of proper rules. Spelling and grammar become incoherent and the lexicon loses many words because those populations were actually never taught the language and the basic grammatical and syntax rules. This generally happens when an underprivileged class is totally isolated from the educated elite. Dialects are something totally different, there are not a class phenomenon, but a regional one, dialects develop through the entire population of a given territory, from the ruling elite to the working class, everybody speaks that dialect. Dialects are not the result of a lack of education, they are the result of a regional isolation that allows the language to follow a specific evolution, but since the educated elite also speaks that dialect, the general grammatical structure keeps its coherence and complexity, and the lexicon keeps its richness. |
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25-01-2006, 21:31 | #67 | |
blah
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and i absolutely agree with my fellow lezbion Amber |
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25-01-2006, 23:36 | #68 | ||
Участник
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All hail to the post/forum whore. Quote:
yet, you are speaking it. |
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26-01-2006, 02:43 | #69 |
kis$ it
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oh god here we go again.
dictionary.com: slang: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang. ebonics is not the first. it is the second, but so are many things. |
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26-01-2006, 06:56 | #70 | |
The Dream is Over, :~(
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The level of hysteria over ebonics in this thread is extremely disproportionate to the reality of its usage. Even if you were to encounter a person who frequently uses it, that person would be speaking the standard English of the US to you. Dialect: Dictionary.com di·a·lect n. 1. a) A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English. b) A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek. 2. The language peculiar to the members of a group, especially in an occupation; jargon: the dialect of science. 3. The manner or style of expressing oneself in language or the arts. 4. A language considered as part of a larger family of languages or a linguistic branch. Not in scientific use: Spanish and French are Romance dialects. Britannica.com 1. a) a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language <the Doric dialect of ancient Greek> b) one of two or more cognate languages <French and Italian are Romance dialects> c) a variety of a language used by the members of a group <such dialects as politics and advertising -- Philip Howard> d) a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other than geography (as social class) <spoke a rough peasant dialect> e) REGISTER 4c f) a version of a computer programming language 2. manner or means of expressing oneself : PHRASEOLOGY Cambridge Dictionary dialect noun [C or U] a form of a language that people speak in a particular part of a country, containing some different words and grammar, etc: a regional dialect The poem is written in northern dialect. "Different" or "distinguished" are the operative words here; dialects cannot conform to the standard English grammatically, vocubulary-wise, or whatever. Whether it "degrades" the accepted standard English or not is a matter of taste, not a matter of whether it is a dialect or not. I think we have just about exhausted the topic here, neither of us are going to convince anybody otherwise. I have no intention of ending the topic prematurely but let's just agree to disagree. And uh,... I just wanna holla out cha, it's been a plejah conversatin' wid y'all, bitches! Fer real, yah heard! |
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26-01-2006, 19:23 | #71 |
********
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I have this audio on my Mp3 player:
http://www.theflasharchive.com/f/f-85.htm http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/882...ndahood2vn.jpg http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/733/cracka8fj.jpg Honestly, I think it's just born out of laziness, because not all black people talk that way. Bill Cosby, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, they don't talk like that. |
Last edited by ypsidan04; 26-01-2006 at 19:36. |
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26-01-2006, 23:39 | #72 |
Sad Little Monkey
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It's interesting how "proper", literary versions of langauges have become so idolized in time. I'm not saying that proper language isn't important, since it serves as a great tool of unification and is essencial in the survival of a language (that goes especually for endangered languages). But on the other hand it's good to realize that official versions of languages which would be considered as proper literaly ones are nothing but one of many dialects that was (for one reason or another - usually cause first literary works or grammar books were written in it) chosen to unify the language as a whole. It's nothing but a dialect which was chosen to be the official representative of the language. Lets not forget that Portugese, Romanian, Italian Spanish and French were nothing but dialects of vulgaric latin at the beginning and as they evolved into languages their linguistic entities got unified by taking a syntax and adapting most grammar rules according to ONE of the many dialects spoken in the region. Dialects by themselves are very fascinating and show fluency in language changes... they fill the holes that appear among languages of one family and even bridge the gaps between different language families. And furthermore dialects are a celebration of diversity - a living story of historical influences that shaped a certain language. I think they're absolutely fascinating and definitely not worth less than any formal and mutualy accepted dialect that represents the literal language.
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27-01-2006, 06:37 | #73 | |
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27-01-2006, 11:14 | #74 |
Sad Little Monkey
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It'd debatable whether it'd be such a good thing if all those nations still spoke Vulgaric Latin - except for translation costs within the EU. One must not forget that lack of education wasn't the only thing that led to the split of the common Latin spoken throughout. There were a bunch of other things. It was a natural evolution of a dialect into a language. Same way that pretty much every language in existance started out: it's not like latin itself was any different back in the day. It's just an italic dialect spoken on the Apeninian peninsula that just so happened became extremely popular. That doens't mean that other languages which evolved from it are simply impure versions of latin caused strictly by lack of education. All those provinces were far away from the Roman empire, so there was reluctance to speak Latin in the first place, dialects got influenced by langauges spoken by ancient indigenous people that lived there since before Roman occupation... it was a completely natural evolution. And I think it's great that it happened. I recognize the need for a lingua franca like Latin or French were in history or like English is now. But that doesn't mean dialect which would in time naturally evolve into langauges are impure by default. I think dialects enrich a langauge (and culture in general), rather than do damage to it. They are a living testiment of great diversity and differences in people, yet those differences ultimately just show how similar we all are.
With your unifying philosophy where does it stop really? All former Roman provinces speaking a unified descendent of latin? But in that case why stop there? Wouldn't it be better if all germanic tribes spoke unified proto-germanic? Or all slavics unified proto-slavic? Or to go even further... wouldn't it be absolutely brilliant if the whole European continent spoke a common version of Proto-IndoEuropean from which all European languages stem from? |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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28-01-2006, 18:39 | #75 | |
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That doesn't mean that i am against evolution or a conservative, far from it, lol. Proto-Indo-European was an extremely complicated language with many declensions (8 cases, 3 numbers, 3 genders) and a rich verbal system. Proto-Indo-European was also a very synthetic language, a characteristic that all Indo-European languages will progressively abandon to become less and less synthetic and more and more analytic, which is a fascinating process (the extreme case being English itself which has become much more analytic than synthetic, some linguists think that English may very well become fully analytic - like Chinese - in a future evolution). So Proto-Indo-European was much more complicated than any of its daughter languages and i certainly don't wish that it had remained that way until modern days, Proto-Indo-European was complicated because it had developed during prehistorical times and was the result of a more archaic stage of human development. The apparition of civilization and of more complex thoughts will cause the language to evolve and become more efficient, less complicated in form and more sophisticated in substance. Evolution is a natural process and languages evolve all the time, but what i am wary of is not evolution, it's division. A language doesn't have to split to evolve, Latin for example evolved a great deal between Classical Latin in the 2nd century BC and Vulgar Latin in the 5th century AD, to such a point that people from the 5th century (unless they were educated scholars) could no longer understand written Classical Latin, but Vulgar Latin was still a single language, there were regional dialects but they were still mutually intelligible, and if the Western Roman Empire had kept its political unity, it would have remained that way. And sometimes a dialect can acquire certain awkward features that are not good innovations, it generally happens during troubled periods when there is a lack of an educated elite that can maintain certain proper guidelines for the language. I'll take an example in French (because i know it quite well and hopefully i won't be called a racist if i criticize my own language). Northern French dialects have acquired a unique and not so good feature among Romance languages. In Latin and all Romance languages (including Southern French dialects called Occitan), the use of personal pronouns is optional because verbs are highly inflected and have different verbal endings for all persons and all tenses, the verb inflection carrying all the information needed, personal pronouns are unnecessary and are only used for emphasis. Northern French dialects however have undergone a severe change in pronunciation compared to Latin, and many verbal endings became identical because of that change (not always in spelling, but totally identical in pronunciation). At the present tense for example, 4 out of 6 verbal endings are pronounced the same in French whereas they are all different in all other Romance languages. Because of the confusion caused by those identical verbal endings, people started to use personal pronouns systematically, Northen French dialects are the only ones where that happened and this is not a good evolution. It would have been good if verbal endings had become totally identical inside a given tense, if you use personal pronouns systematically, you no longer need verbal endings other than to indicate the tense, just like you don't need personal pronouns if you have different verbal endings for each person. But Northen French dialects got stuck somewhere in the middle, not enough verbal endings to allow personal pronouns to remain optional, but the systematic use of personal pronouns did not cause verbal endings to completely drop either. It's redundant and inelegant, and certainly not an improvement compared to previous forms of the language, the French verbal system is typically for me a good example of an evolution gone bad. And actually, when in the Middle Ages the French kings decided to pick one dialect to make it the official French language, scholars of the time recommended to choose a Southern dialect of the Occitan branch, because Occitan was much closer to Latin and much purer. But the fact that the political center was in Northern France obviously favored Northern dialects, which was obviously a mistake in my opinion, Occitan would have indeed been a much better choice. |
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28-01-2006, 19:18 | #76 |
The Black and Blue Wizard
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oi vita oi vita mia
oi core e chist mmore si stat o prim ammore o prim e lultim saraj p meeeeeeee!!!!!! It's my dialect!!! |
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29-01-2006, 00:16 | #77 |
kis$ it
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italian is beautiful.
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29-01-2006, 01:00 | #78 |
blah
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umm, i see you changed the name of the topic. i just wanted to add this: back in the day, dialects were formed because people barely had ways of communication (thus 'main' languages tended to change into dialects according to the area in which people were living, their social level and so on). diachronically speaking, slangs and dialects were/are prolific, but synchronically it's another story. see, the thing is like this: we're living in the age of communication, for goodness sakes! the majority of people have access to institutionalized education and technically speaking they should be able to learn at least their own language. the fact that people tend to consider ebonics a sign of diversity and enrichment of the english language scares me. we have our own version of butchered language in romania. gypsy music with lyrics having a lot of grammatical errors (the most 'popular' being plural noun followed by verb in singular form; e.g. 'they is'). with all due respect, i find it shocking that people tend to 'sugar coat' the fruit of the uneducated. and by that i mean calling it dialect, despite of the fact that it isn't. dialect is something that technically should not exist in the civilized world, because language is so well spread through communication and education. however, we have slangs due to people's 'occupations', so to speak. but they CANNOT be called dialects. period.
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29-01-2006, 01:49 | #79 | |
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And i totally agree with what you said, your example is a typical one, the use of a singular verbal form with a plural subject, that's not a dialectal feature, that's simply the sign of an uneducated person who doesn't know how to conjugate properly. In a true dialect, verbal endings may evolve compared to the original language, change in pronunciation are common, but they won't get 'mixed up' like that. Romance languages are a good example of that since they all have different verbal endings, but if compared to Latin, the relation person to person and tense to tense is still obvious, those verbal endings have evolved, they have not been mixed up. On the other hand, the fact that Romanian has postposed definite articles whereas all Western Romance languages have preposed ones is a typical dialectal evolution. Classical Latin did not have definite articles at all, but they appeared at some point in Vulgar Latin before the split into Romance dialects, and in Eastern Romance dialects, the definite articles became postposed. |
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29-01-2006, 09:59 | #80 |
kis$ it
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slang, dialect, and language is vastly different and probably should be separated into different threads. language is official and dialect is usually a phonetic derivate of an official language. slang is ...refer to dictionary.com or any such source for a definition. i'm not sure what this thread is about really. are we comparing all three? are we talking about ebonics as a dialect? no idea now.
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