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30-04-2007, 08:49 | #61 | |
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Second off...I gotta ask: even though they're a small percentage of the population, why wouldn't you want to make laws protecting them? - We have laws that protect consumers with x amount of debt from being hassled by collection agencies. - We have laws that protect disabled persons from workplace discrimination. - And we have laws that protect religious minorities, like Muslims and Unitarians, from religious discrimination. So, even though all of the three above groups of people (consumers in debt, disabled persons, and religious minorities) are a small percentage of the US population, we as a society are compassionate and extend protections to them that they cannot achieve in and of themselves. Saying that transgender individuals aren't worthy of legal protection and recourse not only sounds un-compassionate, but it sounds hateful. As a gay man, I'm also in the minority of Americans, but I still firmly believe I should be protected from hateful/harmful attacks by other people. Wouldn't you agree? |
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30-04-2007, 08:59 | #62 | |
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However, in order for a law to be passed, it needs a purpose. - Five transexuals in South Dakota who want a law passed, will never get one no matter how much they wish for it, because they don't represent the number of people needed to promose a said law. Not to mention, like I said, it's virtually non existant here. I highly, highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that we have ANY transexuals in this state. |
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30-04-2007, 09:02 | #63 | |
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30-04-2007, 09:16 | #64 | |
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Gender Identity and Expression can take a LOT of different forms. Technically speaking, a boy who wears girls jeans (re: "emo boys") is cross-dressing, and that is transcending the gender barrier and being transgender, though not to the same degree as a transsexual. Did a small bit of research and here are a few links to some Transgender support groups for transgender people: http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...d=242&state=SD http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...t=MTF&state=SD I don't know, kind of make me wonder why there would be support groups for a population that doesn't exist, eh? I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse. And well dude, I'm not transgender, but you better BELIEVE I care enough for people who are that I would lobby my state for protections for them. White men lobbied to give black folks the right to vote and ban racial discrimination, and men helped women get the right to vote. I'm actually lobbying now for a bill at the RI General Assembly that would outlaw hate-crimes based on Gender Identity/Expression because I think it is wrong. It's the one thing RI law doesn't protect against, sadly. Lesbians that cut their hair short like a boy's are affected by Gender Identity legislation, just like boys that wear short-shorts are sometimes picked on for dressing like girls. I've heard some of the testimony... not all of it just impacts the transgender community. |
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30-04-2007, 09:20 | #65 | |||
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Dear you need to read my post on the last page. I do not believe in "gender identity", and neither do many people. It's something you learn, you are not born with it. Gender identity support groups are there for no purpose other than to provide comfort. They are baised and do not give oppinions from both sides of the argument. - Study up some psychology and where the term came from to understand what it is. Quote:
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30-04-2007, 09:22 | #66 |
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I would also like to point out that the Transgender community in the United States has the highest murder rate of any minority in the country. In fact the rate is sooo astronomical that the Transgender Day of Rememberance has been observed nation wide longer than the Day of Silence for LGBT youth in schools.
Talyubittu, do you still want to contend that Trans people in your state do not deserve the right to live, even though you think their population is so insignificant? |
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30-04-2007, 09:25 | #67 | ||
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The day of silence was started in 1997. |
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30-04-2007, 09:32 | #68 |
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I'm going to bed, I'll continue this debate tomorrow. |
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30-04-2007, 09:34 | #69 |
Gaga ftw!
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30-04-2007, 09:41 | #70 | ||
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Mmm...alright buddy.
First off, I'm a second year Psychology and Political Science Double-Major at the University of Rhode Island, one of the best Psychology schools in the country. And psychologists are in concert that there IS such a thing as Gender Identity and Expression. I assume that you acknowledge a difference between your anatomical sex (tip: Look under your boxers) and your sense of gender. That's pretty general psychology, so I shouldn't have to cover that. So, since you are confident that you're a boy (You know: You feel comfortable with getting facial and body hair, and you are comfortable with your penis, and the roles society expects you to live up to as a man), wouldn't you agree that you have a sense of "identity" because of your gender? It's one thing, dude, to say that you personally do not believe in gender identity, but to debunk science and declare that gender identity and expression are not valid is incorrect, and I think that perhaps YOU need to do some brushing up on psychology and the relationship between the body and the mind. Especially check up on Maslow's theory of Self-Actualization. And dude... Quote:
For instance, a punk sees a woman on the street and decides to hold her at gunpoint and rob her. Is his primary motive the fact that she is a woman? No, because it could easily be argued in court that if a scrawney looking man, a young boy, or an african-american woman were standing there, they probably had an equal chance of being robbed. But if a boy is walking down the street and a car stops, some punks get out, call the boy a fa**ot and taunt him and then beat him up and speed off, it IS a hate crime because the perpetrator demonstrated active hatred for the boy's perceived sexual orientation. In court, with a witness, it can be proven that the punks were in fact irritated enough by the boy's perceived sexual orientation to act out and harm him, and if sexual orientation is a protected class in that state/country's Hate Crimes act, it can be invoked and the perpetrator can receive a harsher sentence. Quote:
Have you ever seen a drag queen/drag king? (A girl in a tuxedo or a suit of any kind IS considered cross-dressing, by the way.) |
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Last edited by Ace of Order; 30-04-2007 at 14:43. Reason: QUOTE HTML hates me, and I found my source! |
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30-04-2007, 14:16 | #71 | |
Gaga ftw!
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If you disagree, I suggest you take out a copy of John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government which heavily influenced the creation of the United States of America. Citizens of a democratic state give up certain rights to the government with the expectation that the government will protect them from others infinging on their rights, so that they may spend their time and energy in the pursuit of other things like "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property". This includes Transgender individuals (which encompasses more than just transsexuals)... I'm assuming that South Dakota has girls that are tomboys and effiminate acting boys... they are also covered under the term Transgender. Then again I think the Boston Glode sums it up nicely also. |
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01-05-2007, 04:51 | #72 | ||
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01-05-2007, 05:22 | #73 |
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Are you a Scientologist? |
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01-05-2007, 05:52 | #74 |
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Nope, I just believe there is a LARGE difference in the study of the mind, and the study of made up conditions to fit a social pattern that has always been present when discussing a social-gender role. | If psychology was just a study of the mind it would be a different case, it's not that simple anymore however. Many of you people argue that psychology explains gender identity to be anyone who dosen't fit into a social category that is usually associated with that persons biological sex. - This does not mean that you can RANDOMLY decide you want to be the opposite sex. You are confusing terms. Transgender and transexual are different, and not everyone who is transgender wishes to be the opposite sex. If all of you who claim to have such advanced study in psychology would have been studying 50 years ago, you would have also been told that homosexuality was a mental dissease. So whats your point? Psychology is an opinionated derative of science. It's not exact by any means. The human mind isn't a tool that is read like a book, so I don't know why colleges and universities think that you can learn and study the nature of it by one. |
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01-05-2007, 08:31 | #75 | |
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The same way as you can study the nature of evolution or space without really having anything absolutely tangible to fall back upon. Science is about making guesses and then substantiating those guesses with controled experiements. Even the laws of nature aren't really "laws". They're just our description of how four fundamental forces react in a 3D environment. The same with psychology. It tries to get answers from studying human psyche and as far as I'm concerned it's just as valid as any other scientific field of research. |
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01-05-2007, 08:58 | #76 | |
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Psychology is a branch of medicine, however, if you compare psychology and pediatrics, you'll notice that pediatrics, along with all other medical ailments, are tangible, and can therefore be proven to exist. They all have the same definate outcome most of the time, it's not the same as comparing it to something else that has a Infinity! amount of outcomes. |
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01-05-2007, 19:33 | #77 |
Freakin' Nutmeggers!
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Psychology is a branch of science, not medicine. The actual definition of psychology is: The scientific study of human behavior and mental processes (Discovering Psychology, 3rd Edition, pg. 3). Psychiatry is a branch of medicine that deals with mental, emotional, and behavioral disorders. Please do not confuse the two terms. A psychiatrist is enabled to prescribe medicine, a psychologist is not.
The thing about science, Talyubittu, is that ALL of the acknowledged sciences rely on hypotheses and proving/disproving those hypotheses in order to define our world. Psychology is a COMPLETELY legit school of science because it follows the laws of the Scientific Method, using hypotheses about how the mind works to piece together the puzzle of our minds and behaviors. Your point about homosexuality being a mental disorder 40 years ago is moot. Psychology as a science has analyzed homosexuality many, many times over the years, through thousands of different circumstances and people, and we have reached a conclusion as a school that homosexuality is a legit sexual orientation. That is our modern belief. You'll recall that recently, science has changed it's collective mind on several ideas we once took for fact. For instance, Pluto is no longer considered a planet of our solar system. The Human Genome project: It was once believed that you had a gene for every single protein in your body. That has since been dis-proven. Finally, transgenderism is now believed to be a biological disorder instead of a mental disorder (http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org). It is classified as an inter-sex condition. (Disclaimer: HBS is classified as Gender Identity Disorder by the DSM-IV TR, but the scientific community is confident that in the next revision of the book, GID will be replaced by HBS.) Science evolves through the ages, my friend. Keep in mind that, during the early days of human civilization, most civilizations welcomed and embraced homosexuality. Greece, Egypt, Sumeria, India, Rome, etc. Science is now going full circle with it's idea on homosexuality. As for comparing psychology and pediatrics, I do not think that is a valid comparison. Psychology is an investigational branch of science, a family it shares with biology, chemistry, and physics, while pediatrics is a medicinal science, along with radiology, urology, endocrinology, and oncology. |
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01-05-2007, 20:24 | #78 | |
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01-05-2007, 20:57 | #79 |
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Not so fast.
Being an investigational science does not disqualify psychology's finding and assertions as valid, nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete. Please keep in mind that many, many schools of science are investigational, like the examples I gave. Also keep in mind that every single scientific book and journal out there are based off what "investigational" sciences say is correct. Just because something is investigational does not mean is it not right. It's just that what we think is "right" evolved over time. And right now, at this point in history, the scientific community believes that homosexuality is valid, and it believes that gender identity and expression are valid, and it believes that GID/HBS is valid. Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means, dude... investigational is not synonymous to imaginary. It just means "this is what we believe to be true and correct, until such evidence comes forth as to make us question this conclusion again.” Which does happen, often. |
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01-05-2007, 21:03 | #80 | ||||
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