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30-04-2007, 03:58 | #61 | ||||||||
ex-sunnich
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I grew up in USSR, I do remember many things about 'communism'. Some of those were really bad and I'm really sorry that it happened to all countries under this regime including my own. But I also remember a lot of good things that I really miss now. For me history is not black and white, I've been raised with idea that memories should be treasured, bad things should felt sorry about and taken as lessons, good things should be apperciated, respected and carried further. I've seen many things with my own eyes, I have older people around to tell me how things really were for them back in years, I have old movies and documentaries, novels and songs, art work to see how it 'felt' for people. I have modern russian media writing about things that happened back then, revealing archives that lost their 'secret information' lable lately. I have my history lessons that I got in new democrating Russia with new re-written books and quite an open-minded teacher. The lesson about WWII didn't start with 'evil Hitler attacked our beloved homeland'. It began with pre-1941 events, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Stalin's plan to catch Hitler out guard with sudden attack, secret services reporting Stalin exact date of Hitler's attack and Stalin not taking it seriously enough and not using an opportunity to prepare which caused extra victims and diffculties for us in the begining of war on our territory. I have my literature lessons and Solzhenitsin was one of obligatory authors in my school. And on the top of this all I have western media to give me yet another perspective on things. I read those articles online or see them on tv. You know, in this 'totalitarian' country almost every channel has 'foreign media' section on their news that does inform us of 'your' opinion on things. Surprisingly, those channels are still feeling pretty well and journalists responsible for this aren't killed or prisoned. This is where my opinion comes from and I don't feel it being suppressed by anything or anyone. I can go to Red Square now and shout it out, I can write in my blog and no one will look for me to punish, I can tell it to my boss at work, I can tell it to Putin personally if I meet him without any fear, I can write in in the news-paper and it won't be closed. What's yours based on? A couple of books by western writers and western media with their prejudices and political interests? And if I don't share your ideas about everything about USSR and Putin being black, if I don't feel like spitting into face of my grandparents for that war and feel thankful they suffered and died not allowing Hitler to take over this country and whole Europe, it means my opinion is wrong, suppressed and comes from brain-washing? Because with this your whole post you made me feel like this is how you see it. I honestly don't know what kind of British monuments were removed in your ex-colonies. If those were set just as symbols of British domination then yes, there's nothing wrong with removing them just as there's nothing wrong with East-European countries removing varios 'CCCP' signs, random soviet red stars, monuments dedicated to communism, communistic party and special events of that time, monuments to Lenin, Stalin and so on. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and we removed quite a lot of those ourselves. But monuments to unknown soldier set near places where people were burried together in one grave is a whole different issue. Those people didn't come there as conquirers. They were fighting for 'freedom', they were fighting against Hitler, against dark power of fascism and they had no goddamn idea on what would happen next. Have you ever looked in the eyes of those people that stayed alive and lived it long anough to still be here now? I did and heard them telling stories about how it was. They feel really sad about a lot of things that happened. They themselves didn't expect to live under fear of being killed and deported due to 'traitors' paranoia that happened after the war was over, they didn't expect to be labled 'occupants' by people who's freedom they believed they fighted for. They are really old now, most of their friends that did share their memories died already. On the 9th of May they just put their uniform on and go outside to meet few people that remember that are still alive, they go to those monuments to leave some flowers to those dear friends, children, beloved ones that never fillfulled their promise to come back. And they shyly accept flowers from random people relieved that there are people that apperciate what they did, that everything they came from during and after the war wasn't for nothing. It's these people that monument was set for, it's these people who were burried there, it's for people that cried in Berlin not believing the hell was over. It's these people that got this slap, not Stalin or Soviet Government that are gone long ago. There's a monument of a soviet soldier holding a German girl in one hand and a sword ripping fascist Iron Cross apart in another in Berlin. Somehow no one is removing it, Germans actually spent 1.5 mlns Euro reparing it few years ago. No matter how monsterious Stalin and soviet regime was, it still was a soviet army to break into Berlin loosing thousands of people there and destroying last remanings of fascism there. And there's nothing wrong with honoring dead people that did this, there's nothing wrong with allowing others who feels thankful to come a bring flowers to the monument that is dear to them. That's what democracy is about I guess - respect. Quote:
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August 2004. Lihula, Estonia. 2 attempts to install a monument for 'heroic fighters for freedom of Estonia'. It was same monument actually with a soldier in SS uniform, with fascist Iron Cross and german gun in his hands. Both times the monument was removed under pressure of EU, USA and russian and jewish organizations. In 2005 third attempt almost happened but then they desided to put the monument into museum of 'History of the fight for liberation of Estonia' (not sure about the exact translation). 16 March is an un-official day of Latvian SS Legioner in Latvia. In 2005 nationalistic groups were officialy allowed to organize demonstration. Anti-fascist groups dressed in prisoners' suits, stood on the way of this demonstration and were 'cleared from the way' by police. Your media did show it I believe. That moment made it to many tv reports. In 2006 authorities of Riga have forbidden any demonstrations on this day in fear to get another fight on the streets and they had NATO summit coming later that year. In 2007 all 'selebrations' were once again officially allowed. I don't really see anything bad about feeling sorry for victims of this war whatever side they were on. That was an ugly war, as I already said, and a lot of things were twisted but people suffered and died for things they believed in. It's just amazes me how while they show tolerance to SS soldiers and allow nationalists to organize demonstrations (which is indeed their democratic right), they can't do same for people that fighted against Hitler in that war. It's not about being madly in love with soviet regime. But don't you see that trying to get closer to Europe and/or feeding nationalistic feelings in their countries, they go for another extreme. They try to re-write history, they discriminate people here in 2007. They shave away modern democratic Russia and russians like they are some kind of desease. They stopped considering the day nazis were out of their countries any good. New ideology is praising 'fighters for freedom' and the excuse for wearing SS uniform is ' they planned to free themselves from soviets first with the help of german army and after that they planned to get rid of germans as well'. I see more and more people actually believing this without realizing how absurd it does in fact sound. That's what scary. Russians, estonians, latvians, lithuanians, georgians etc were actually in pretty same position under this regime. Deportations, prisons, limitations of freedome, propaganda - we all were getting it. Never ever were those nations considered 'our slaves' or something. The ideology itself wasn't as bad as the methods used to enforce it. For generations of soviet russians estonians and latvians were nothing but 'brothers'. It's history now after USSR collapsed and every country was suggested to 'take as much independence as they could handle'. It's modern russians they raise hatered for in their children. Quote:
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As for appologizing... you know, if I meet some Latvian and Estonian and he tells me a sad story of something that happened to his family, I'll sincerely say 'I'm sorry your family had to come through all this'. But the country you expect appology from doesn't even exist anymore... majority of russians suffered from this regime just as much as other nationalities did, as I said already. It's not the case when one country slaves another. The thing is much more complicated than this. Quote:
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Why wouldn't USA attack Russia? Because it can't happen in the modern world, right? WWIII could be a serious threat for whole humanity when nuclear potential of small group of countries is enough to destroy this planet fully and more than once. Then why the hell do all those small countries we don't give a damn about for almost 20 years need protection from Russia? Double standards or what? And please explain me how we bully Estonia. All we did was express our disgust with this their action. |
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30-04-2007, 13:14 | #62 | |||||||||||||||||||
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When the Irish Famine took place in the 1840s, Ireland was a constituent part of the UK. Even so, Tony Blair apologised to Ireland for what the UK government had done during the famine. You're taking a legalistic position. Quote:
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30-04-2007, 17:07 | #63 | |||
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Litvinenko was a Polonium dealer. He transported that substance (in huge amounts!!!) in a not correctly closed container and the Polonium vaporized and contaminated every location, where Litvinenko went, for days. He simply inhaled enough that he had to die of a lethal dosis. It was an accident. It's quite unlogical to assume that somebody tried to kill him like this. It's like giving him a motor-cycle expecting he would die in a road accident. Assassinators work differently. Quote:
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The last years we have witnessed more than enough of those strategies, thought up in Washington, to keep Russia at it's place. It's a simple defence concept of the USA to keep their power. A high amount of conflict potential lets the USA remain the most powerful country in the world. An almost conflictfree, prospering world, especially in Eastern Europe and West Asia, makes the EU stronger. Therefore the EU should help solve the problems there, not support the USA with those politics. Helping Russia to develop it's economy and solving the numerous problems of this area will make Europe the most powerful institution of the world and it's really sad that an alcohol-abuse demented Texas cowboy takes us Europeans by the nosering and pulls us everywhere he wants. (Well, what to expect from a region, whose name comes from a cow, who was the fuck-toy of the Big Boss - who obviously fucks her till now!) It's not important, who is right or who is wrong, and what happened in the past - the main concern is the future. The neighbour-countries will have much profit from a working-together with Russia, there is no use for nationalist actions and revenge for things, which are not in the responsibility of the current political leaders in Russia. Another fact to observe: Putin had to fight from the first day of his reign against the 'family' and the nationalist military fraction. Every nationalist conflict in the former republics with their strong Russian minorities strengthens the power of the military and puts pressure on the government to act 'appropriately' and Russia is in constant danger that they may overtake the government or at least win the next presidental elections, which will be a highly undesired development for the EU. The EU should consider, how to build the house Europe for the future as long as we are able to do it. |
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30-04-2007, 17:41 | #64 | |||||
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30-04-2007, 18:02 | #65 | |
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The Latvian language is part of the Baltic family of Indo-European languages, that family is no more and no less related to the Slavic or Germanic ones, it's not a Slavic sub-group, it's a language family in its own right. Linguists actually find the Baltic family (particularly Lithuanian) to be extremely interesting since it has kept many archaic features and its comparison with Sanskrit and Ancien Greek is a great help to determine what the original Proto-Indo-European language looked like. As for Latvian people, the presence in the area of tribes who were clearly Indo-European but distinct from Slavic and Germanic tribes is historically well attested (notably by Teutonic Knights and Scandinavian sailors). Balts are not a Russian (or even Slavic) sub-group. Other than that, i mostly agree with simon (except about US bases in Europe obviously). Russia can't expect people who were colonized and russified by force to be greatful for what was done to them. People can easily reconcile (French and Germans are proof of that) but faults have to be officially acknowledged by the states. The main thorn in EU/NATO relations with Russia is that the Russian regime is becoming more and more authoritarian and that can't be good for anyone. And regarding the citizenship issue of ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia, as far as i understand it, Latvia and Estonia decided to grant citizenship to all residends except those who were sent there as Russian colonists during the Soviet occupation after 1940, which is their right and understandable considering those colonists were part of a forced russification process of the area. And it's not like Russians don't have a homeland, they have a massive 17 million km2 one right next to Latvia, surely that's big enough and they don't need the small Latvian territory. |
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30-04-2007, 20:06 | #66 | ||
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We are talking about a super-power, the USA and China are not that different. Their tactics may differ a bit, the result is the same - promises, bribery, blackmail. You are right, we should not give in, when countries are threatened by Russia, but we should prevent aggressive nationalism on both sides. Russia is too valuable for the EU to ruin the relations because of those childish nationalistic revenge acts. Russia is the future of EU's struggle for being THE economic worldpower. Therfore, outwit Russia to play our game, not that of America and not their own, that should be the target for the EU. |
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30-04-2007, 20:09 | #67 | |||||||||||||||||
ex-sunnich
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We have elections comming, you know. And life always gets 'interesting' at such moments. I won't say Putin or current government are saint. But I wouldn't call those demonstrants victims either. Some of those guys get arrested few times a year for various provocations. I don't know who's right and who's wrong. All I know is those demonstrants needed a scandal much more than Putin did. Western media taking the side of anti-governmental demonstrants was rather predictable, so I personally wouldn't dramatize things too much here. Quote:
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The case with this estonian memorial is more complicated. Those soldiers didn't come there to conquire a free country. They were freeing it from nazis and that was a good thing to do. What happened next happened on some political level. Civil soviet people didn't even realize it was 'an occupation'. Estonians voted for parliment, parliment decided to join USSR, welcome 'brothers', let's build communism together. As I already said, Estonia was never treated as 'colony' and estonians were never slaves. They were a part of big country, USSR did use its resources to build infrastructure there. Generations of estonians themselves didn't see it as 'occupation'. Soviet propaganda was effective enough and they were born and grew up in a 'happy soviet brotherhood' with no one daring to tell them otherwise without risking to be shot or repressed. Those soldiers weren't 'occupants' in their heart during the war and weren't after it. Some of them died without ever seeing things this way. That was an occupation on some top political level. No doubts here. Soviet Regime commited serious crimes against humanity. No doubts here either. But this part of the history is complicated. Even after USSR collapsed, after painful realization of what kind of hell soviet regime was, we kept feeling that all those people are not really foreigners to us. And it's not because we thought we still 'own' them, I repeat. We never did 'own'. We grew up with the idea they were 'brother nations' to us. We got used to respect and support them and counting on them doing same back. Such things are very hard to erase from mentality. For example when watching some sport competion on TV, you support ex-USSR sportsmen like if they were 'urs', you don't really think about it, you just feel this way. Or if you meet someone from those countries in far foreign country, you feel happy to see them like if they were russian. And russians weren't alone in feeling this way for a while till this 'let's go west' idea governments of those countries began to push. With all this current situation does make russians feel bit betrayed. This war meant a lot to us and it's very offensive to see how they remove the monuments for our dead and make it look like ones that fighed in Hitler's side were more of a heroes than ones that fighted against. It's hard to understand such things from where you are as you don't share our memories. But Estonians knew what they were doing pretty well. West takes anything that's ani-russian as a sign of liberation, West takes any our protest as an attempt to bully countries we once 'occupied'. Governments of these newly independent countries want to be a part of modern Europe, want to be supported by NATO and EU and they hurry to please the West often taking things to extreme. It's very hard to see the line between some things for both Russia and the West. Quote:
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Look at you only country. You never were pro-soviet, UK was always one of the strongest opponents of USSR in this cold war and public opinion does reflect it pretty well nowadays. You aren't exactly on the Russian side in curent silent Cold War either. You are anti-soviet in all ways possible. But could such things happen in your democratic country? Don't you really see the difference between being anti-soviet and pro-nazi? Quote:
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And no, I wasn't mentioning intervention after WWI. I meant something that happened much earlier in czarist Russia. We have a long and intense history together since the time we were 'Kievskaya Rus' and 'Rech Pospolitaya'. There were a lot of attacks from both sides and I see no point in trying to remember who was worse. It shouldn't justify hate in the modern world. Quote:
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Just give this time. Quote:
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Case with Lithuania is just a routine of the war for the oil market. We don't attack them, we don't rob them off anything. We just stop selling them something we aren't obliged to sell at all. Dirty? Yeah for sure. But these are games not only Russia plays. Other 2 cases are not as simple as you make them sound. It's not like we just came up with the idea 'lets show Gergia who's the boss' and started bullying them. There are quite serious troubles there and new Georgian government knows what to do and who's help to count on. Don't make them look all poor and unprotected. In this situation they definitely aren't or they wouldn't take actions they take. Quote:
What those countries need is not american bases to protect them from Russian military forces. They need stable economics not to feel economically dependant on us. It's wierd to constantly do things to annoy us and at the same time expect 'special treatment'. |
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Last edited by la aurora; 30-04-2007 at 20:32. |
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30-04-2007, 20:16 | #68 |
ex-sunnich
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haku,
I said it that that video is just an opinion and that I personally don't agree with everything shown there and written in comments. I really haven't ever thought of Latvian not being a language on its own. But tendencies I see in those countries do make me feel uneasy. Of course its 'their right' to tell people that lived there for 80+ years to pack their things and go 'home' but it's really doesn't sound as an example of modern european democracy for me. Some of those people lived there for even longer but lost papers, majority didn't come their voluntary after WWII. Don't you find it unhuman to discriminate them for whatever reason? |
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01-05-2007, 05:10 | #69 | ||
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That being said, each EU state is free to define its own citizenship rules (within EU regulations). ************ A BBC article about the various fates of Soviet memorials in Eastern Europe. ************ Another account of the mass rapes commited by the Red Army in Eastern Europe, from this book. Quote:
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01-05-2007, 06:41 | #70 | ||
ex-sunnich
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The question is 'What would be reaction of western media if Russia left such a big amount of people without basic rights?' And how would it influence the public opinion on Russia. I don't ask this for the sake of arguing or being defensive, I just geniously wonder what do you think would happen and would there be zero reaction or would anyone bother to look for excuses because 'it's our right to define our own citizenship rules'? Be honest please. I somehow guess it would be different. But may be I'm wrong. Quote:
Are you sure you'd manage to stay sane in such situation? That you wouldn't forget all the laws of common sense and politeness? That you'd know who to love and who to hate? That you'd keep basing your actions on common sense and remember about human rights? There were people that managed to stay human with all this. And there were ones that lost mind totally and never really recovered from what they came through and saw with their eyes. After 5 years they made it to the Heart of Hitler's Empire and some of them didn't put smokings on and invite german girls for a dance. I'm really sorry for every victim for this war. For every girl that was raped, turtured and murdered by either of the sides. This shouldn't happen. Neither of them deserved even 1/10th of what they had to come through. I don't really want to excuse ones responsible for those cruel unhuman actions. But big amount of those people that made it there weren't human anymore and it wasn't exactly their choice. It's ok to call bad things 'bad'. But I'm not sure it's ok to make it look like millions of people (part of those were small children and women) were rapists and occupants and neither of them deserves any respect for what they came through. Where would I be if they didn't go through it? Where would you be? Where would Estonians and Latvians be if soviets lost that one? How comes a soviet soldier doesn't deserve any respect for surviving or dying in this war while SS Legioner that also raped women, killed their own people (I'm not even talking about Jewish people) deserves it because it's new fasion to call him 'figher for free Latvia'? I really think we shouldn't spit in the faces of those who already had it hard enough. And that we should suddenly feel disgusted and hateful for whole army that fighed against Hitler just because some of them didn't behave properly according to modern view on the things. It's cool to be cool and fair and judge people that did it 'wrong' at some point. It's really cool. Just not exactly human. Come here on the 9th of May one day. Just hurry, because most of them won't really wait for long. Come, find an old man sitting on the bench in his uniform all alone because his friends didn't make it there and never will anymore. Come and tell him that all his life was a big mistake, that in that war he was actually an cruel occupant, that all he came through was actually something no one needed. Estonians basicaly did this when removed that monument and they did it because some young nationalists didn't want to see it there. Neither those nationalists that vandalize monuments, nor a big % of authorities that run the country now have no idea what the war feels like, they weren't born early enough to be raped, killed or repressed by Stalin. They hate things written in a book and praise things written in the book and twist facts whatever way they want. It's not that hard to do, really. They didn't see what that regime in all its glory. That guy on the bench did. I know this all can sound over-emotional and you may blame me for not accepting things that seem 'facts' for you. But those people are around me, you know. I can't really talk about it like it was a movie or something, like it happened somewhere else. |
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01-05-2007, 09:00 | #71 |
ex-sunnich
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The speech of Estonian prime-minister was posted on the russian branch of this forum. Pity it's in Russian.
He's very sad about this whole sitiation... He hadn't mentioned even a single possibility some of those people on the streets actually felt hurt. He called them vandals, maradeurs and hooligans. (And then he talks about tolerance, respect for each other's memories and cultures) While over a million of good estonians stayed at home (then follows a long speach with thanking their mothers, fathers, school teachers etc for rasing such tolerant and calm children), some maradeurs went out and did their vandalizing thing. Behavior of people definitely tells a lot about how democratic the contry they come from is. It was some cirtain dark power that was spreading untrue information and causing the trouble between nations. (Yes sure, some western channels already showed the guy who had a small portrait of Putin with him. Of course it was those evil provocators that caused the trouble, Estonian authorities that removed the monument knowing half of their own population will feel absolutely shocked and offended, had nothing to do with it) They respect the dead a lot, they respect the memories and culture of other nations. They had to move the monument to save it from drunk maradeurs. They basicaly had no choice because seeing how memories of dead soldiers are accociated with drunk maradeurs and are mentioned in same context on the news channels hurts their feelings. Dead should be respected (I thought 'maradeurs' came there because the monument was removed, not vice versa. There were over dozen of dead bodies next to that monument. Getting them out of the ground, removing the monument from the place lots of people used to attend and bring flowers to, calling them occupants is indeed the biggest sign of respect one could ever show). ________________________________________ No single mention of this monument being offensive for a part of their population. All was done only to take care of the monument and show respect to the dead. Absolutely no responsibilty taken for 1 dead, hundreds of injured and arrested. Only evil powers of some known orgin to blame. They have absolutely nothing to do with it, they are shocked it happens. Without saying it directly, he made it quite clear that all anti-democracy in Estonia comes from ethnic russians that are drunk maradeurs, vandals and hooligans, that whole thing was organized by russian authorities. And then he blames 'someone' for creating an atmosphere of hate and missunderstanding between 2 nations. Long speech about how tolerant, democratic and economically well they are. If this isn't one of the most hypocritical things I've ever heard, I don't know what it is. And while he talks his bullshit, his own country is a mess and people get beaten and it will keep happening due to the perfect timing for this action they've chosen. Relationship between 2 countries will get much worse. Level of hate between people will raise drastically. And he knows for sure that whatever happens, western media and politics will blame everything on 'evil' Russia that keeps bullying small members of EU. For now most of european politics showed their support and only some Belgians pointed out that this monument was much less dangerous while it was where it was. |
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01-05-2007, 21:14 | #72 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Russia under Yeltsin was lawless and chaotic. Putin has brought more order, but used it as an excuse for authoritarianism. Order doesn't require authoritarianism. Quote:
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I understand it a lot better than you might think because my parents were English and I grew up in Scotland. Yes, I'm kind of like those Russians rioting in Tallinn. The United Kingdom is a little like the USSR. For hundreds of years the English have confused Englishness and Britishness. I grew up in Scotland as it was experiencing its national re-awakening before it got its parliament back. I understood the differences between being British, being English and being Scottish - and I felt all three. I could see why the Scots felt aggrieved at the English and shared their frustration at English bossiness. I also hated Scottish parochialism and being an outsider in the country of my birth. But politically I sympathised with the Scots and how they felt about the relationship with England. Since Scotland and Wales got devolution in 1999, the English have come to realise that being English and British are different. It's something I always understood. Quote:
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02-05-2007, 01:38 | #73 |
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Oh God, I couldn't read everything about Estonian case you have written here, but what I read, especially written by la aurora as Russians point of view, there needs to be lot of explainations and discussing. I'm just too tired to do it for now, but I'll do that soon.
Btw. I'm an Estonian myself. |
Last edited by Eku1; 02-05-2007 at 10:47. |
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02-05-2007, 10:34 | #74 | |||
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03-05-2007, 15:19 | #75 | ||
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It is absolutely clear that your NATO countries respect only power and violence. Be calm - all your protests againest "russian imperialism" will be ignored by European goverments. Agreement with Gasprom and Transneft is more important.)))))) Quote:
Being UK citizen I would be confused to speak about "occupation" and colonialism - since hands of your militants covered with blood of many nations in Asia and Africa. And the last one. 3 weeks ago Lord-mayor John Stattard visited Saint-Petersburg. At press conference he had declared that about 60% of super-expensive (more than USD 5 mln for 1 building) real estate in City of London belongs to russins. What's about occupation? |
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За неоценимый вклад Last edited by tanrah; 03-05-2007 at 20:35. |
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03-05-2007, 17:38 | #76 |
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NATO rebukes Russia over Estonia statue dispute
NATO has stepped into the dispute between Russia and Estonia over a Soviet-era statue, asking that Moscow put a stop to the violence outside the Estonian embassy in the Russian capital. In a statement issued on Thursday (3 May), the organisation said it was "deeply concerned by threats to the physical safety of Estonian diplomatic staff, including the ambassador, in Moscow, as well as intimidation at the Estonian embassy." "These actions are unacceptable and must be stopped immediately; tensions over the Soviet war memorial and graves in Estonia must be resolved diplomatically between the two countries," it continued. The NATO comment comes amid escalating tension between Moscow and Tallinn concerning Estonia's decision to move a bronze statue of a soldier erected by the then Soviet authorities in 1947. The Bronze Soldier is seen by many Russians as a testament to the Soviet Union's painful contribution to the World War II effort, but it is regarded by most Estonians as a symbol of 20th century Soviet oppression. The authorities shifted the statue from the centre of Tallinn to a military cemetery last week, sparking riots in the Estonian capital - around one quarter of Estonia's 1.3 million population is ethnically Russian. The "siege" of Estonia's embassy in Moscow began around the same time. Vienna Convention The EU has also called on Russia to put a halt to the violence in Moscow, taking the unusually quick step of issuing a formal request for Russia to fall in line with the UN's so-called Vienna Convention on diplomatic protection. But Russia denies it is in the wrong, saying instead that Estonia's "provocative" actions have led to the dispute between the two countries. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday that moving the statue has "led to seriously negative consequences for Russian-Estonian relations," according to the BBC. The Russian foreign ministry also spoke with the Moscow ambassadors of the European Commission, Germany and Portugal (the current and next EU presidencies, respectively) on Wednesday night, Reuters reports. Russian officials expressed "deep bewilderment" at the meeting about what they called the "lack of a principled assessment by the European Union of the actions of the Tallinn government." Energy dimension to political row In the meantime, Moscow has also halted rail supplies of oil to the small Baltic state. Although it has denied the oil move is politically-motivated, the action is likely to once more raise EU fears about Russia's willingness to use its vast oil and gas resources as political weapons. The same fears were sparked last year when Moscow cut off gas supplies to Ukraine and again this year, when it stopped gas supplies to Belarus. The two incidents prompted a major rethink of EU energy policy, a key aim of which has now become to reduce EU dependency on Russian oil and gas in future. The Russia-Estonia dispute is also taking place within the wider context of Moscow's unhappiness over NATO's recent expansion to include several countries - Estonia among them - that were previously within the Soviet sphere of influence. EU Observer |
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Patrick | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ shortdickman@free.fr ] |
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04-05-2007, 00:43 | #77 | ||
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04-05-2007, 05:14 | #78 |
ex-sunnich
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simon,
there's of course some truth in what you are saying but at the same time you ignore quite a lot of very important facts and factors and you tend to idealize EU, NATO, USA and Allies army back in years. It's much more complicated than that and there was always quite a lot of hypocricy shown from all sides, including current situation. NATO reacted only when they got an excuse of Russia breaking the agreements of Vienna Convention. It's a safe playing. They've picked up on something obvious and stayed silient when it comes to other things. But where were they when Russian authorities sent official requests to investigate situations in Estonia, Latvia and some other East-European countries? International community decided to ignore them completely. And don't expect NATO and USA in particular to make decisions on honorable issues alone. Give it some time, all 3 sides will get tired of playing 'democracy' and 'patriotism' and will concentrate on something that's more important for them. West won't openly confront Russia for poor little Estonia, they'll find financial interests and political stability more important. Estonia will come back to senses too when they see that EU is not going to sponsor them and they'll find themselves in serious trouble as economically they depend on Russia a lot (Russian market for their goods and huge money they get from transits through Estonia by Russian companies). Russia won't be too mad for too long either. We can afford acting offended for a bit but in the end we have some established business ways that go through Estonia and looking for new ones takes time and money. Anyway, I'm planning to post some essay on issues regarding our government, situation is the region and military issues with our neighbours. May be it will give you a better idea on some things as I can see you aren't informed well enough concerning some issues. |
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04-05-2007, 09:24 | #79 | |||
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So I have a right to consider you and your owner (US) as an enemy and you have the same right. But take in account that 90s years finished and Russia as an enemy is not the best situation for you... Quote:
Your mind is heavy armoured againest any other viewpoint - you look like official from Communist party propaganda department. Quote:
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За неоценимый вклад Last edited by tanrah; 04-05-2007 at 12:11. |
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04-05-2007, 12:32 | #80 | |
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