USA - General discussion (Part 1)

[spyretto]

Frankly bpro50, why are we discussing these issues with you? Who are you anyway? You're almost alone with your views here and frankly you're not going to convince anybody about a single thing with such weak arguments. The others may think that it's funny but I've had it. Let Americans only debate this stuff cause it's their own problem. We know where we stand.

Better find yourself a Republican or a Bush-worshiping forum where you can find people who think the same way. Since you're so much better anyway and you think cooperating with the world about security issues means yielding your sovereignty to the UN, then why are you even here to discuss? Go the path you've chosen. Most people here are non-Americans and frankly I don't understand why we even respond to you. My silence will be my reply from now on, it's evident that you just don't get it.

I also think that the non-Americans who continue the discussion must get a kick out of debating nonsensically about these things, because they've finally found someone suitable to do it. We've already seen that when you're pushed around the corner you either bring the direction where it suits you - or if you can't do it, you ignore it altogether. We got that one sorted. You've stopped responding to my posts because I pushed you around the corner and you can't get out. You just take a single thing and ignore everything else cause you don't know what to say. You're stuck. So I win

I'm therefore shutting up as well, the others may continue the (constructive? ) discussion and continue to go around in circles with you. Keep on responding as well, your responses are entertaining and give an insight as to how some people think. I hope they're the minority. But I suggest that rather than doing that, go make a change: enrol in the U.S. army and train to become part of the U.S. forces. Ask to be sent to Iraq. Then you might make a difference. Right now you're just fanning an extinguished flame and soon enough nobody will take you seriously anymore.

Salutes

Originally Posted by nath

..as it's not a secret that Greece is, by tradition "Anti-American" ,and it was renforced by the "Colonels Regime"(it's understandable..)..

Sorry I didn't see that one earlier nath. Well, that is only partly true. Greece as a U.S. ally and a partial member of NATO is not perceived as anti-American by any means. Of course, the Colonels regime did make an impact back then but it's not where I base my beliefs on. The younger generations are people who have not lived through those events. They lived through more recent events, like the Gulf War, Bosnia, Yugolavia and now Iraq. Not to mention that the communists were the ones who were hurt the most by the regime, but it is true that 90% or so of Greeks never embraced the communist ideology.
Why don't you just accept that it might simply be the arrogance and single-mindedness America portray themselves around the world? We're talking about a different mentality here, because they portray themselves as a violent and unforgiving society. That is the impression they give to me. Let me give you an example: ok, Europe and most of the world has abolished the death penalty for decades now, whereas the USA continue to practise it and with the same zeal. But you see that this unforgiving attitude permeates the people themselves. There were polls in America that show the majority is for the death penalty, while the rest of the world is against. It's the only country in the world who have that mentality. They invite the family of the victim to watch the execution - "al la" the Dark Ages - to get their revenge and let their "heart rest". For a European, incarceration for life without previledges could be seen as punishment enough but not for an American. They're only satisfied if they see them killed. "Why is he not executed yet, who are we gonna execute if not him?"
I don't think that portrays a very nice picture of America. To me America is a step below Europe as a more uncivilised and conservative society that has not reached the levels of maturity Europe has - albeit through catastrophy. They're also turning towards the wrong way becoming even more ignorant and single-minded than opening themselves to the world.
For me America is a dangerous place to go, now, not as dangerous as the third world or the Middle East but definitely a distinct level below Europe. So I would avoid visiting, I don't want anything bad to happen to me...

Who knows, maybe one day Americans could start wising up but I don't think it's going to happen when this mentality is passed from generation to generation as part of the American way.

[noki_the_cat]

In observation of many Americans adopting the perception of the media.
Society may accept a carefully orchestrated strategy devised to manipulate the psychological intellection of a nation.
Psychological Operations is a very affective tool and weapon to induce or reinforce an intended group to a carefully devised objective.
Ultimately altering the behavior of intended population.

[bpro50]

I capture the enemy. I put him in prison. He captures Americans and puts them in captivity. I lose whatever sympathy I have for his prisoners when he murders Americans with butcher knives. That doesn't play well on American TV and the internet. After I saw that, I lost all sympathy for enemy prisoners. At that point, I felt rage. If you want to defend them because they are "thugs" then have at it. They are murderers.

Spy, I stated my position on Iraq. I wasn't a 100 per cent behind invasion but once the decision was made, my position was and is to get the job done, set up an interim government, let the people have control of their own destiny and then leave. As far as the rationale for invasion, based on Sadaam rhetoric, his long-term ambitions to overthrow the "great Satan", his call for a worldwide jihad and his intent on building weapons of mass destruction, I believe we were within our rights to put an end to him. Unlike most of the forumers in this group, most people are glad he is gone.

As far as pre-emptive war, I am totally in favor of it. If a country that "hates" the US and yearns for our destruction begins the process of building weapons that can cause irrepairable harm to the US, I am definitely in favor of eliminating their capability before it exists. We would be foolish to wait until the threat was actualized. That does not mean the US wants to occupy the territory of every country, it means taking out enemy capability whereever it exists. You can bet that we have our eyes on any country that proclaims the US or Israel to be its enemy with an aim of destroying us. BTW - you guys keep speaking of Bush as if he was the only man establishing US policy. And, I think you believe that. That's not the way our government works.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by bpro50

I capture the enemy. I put him in prison. He captures Americans and puts them in captivity. I lose whatever sympathy I have for his prisoners when he murders Americans with butcher knives. That doesn't play well on American TV and the internet. After I saw that, I lost all sympathy for enemy prisoners. At that point, I felt rage. If you want to defend them because they are "thugs" then have at it. They are murderers.

Absolutely, I agrree with you. Why am I responding again? I've nothing better to do.. they do deserve to rot slowly in the bowels of hell those terrorists, they really do. But we're taling about the USA's role though. This is a USA foreign policy thread. And please do not equate the terrorists with the rest of the muslims. You're not the only one who shares these views, I've lost friends over this. And they all do think the same way. If you're pushed around the corner you might say the same? I hope not.

Spy, I stated my position on Iraq. I wasn't a 100 per cent behind invasion but once the decision was made, my position was and is to get the job done, set up an interim government, let the people have control of their own destiny and then leave. As far as the rationale for invasion, based on Sadaam rhetoric, his long-term ambitions to overthrow the "great Satan", his call for a worldwide jihad and his intent on building weapons of mass destruction, I believe we were within our rights to put an end to him. Unlike most of the forumers in this group, most people are glad he is gone.

What you do is one thing, what you can do is another. I'm sure Saddam wanted to do all these things, history proved he was too weakened to do anything.

As far as pre-emptive war, I am totally in favor of it. If a country that "hates" the US and yearns for our destruction begins the process of building weapons that can cause irrepairable harm to the US, I am definitely in favor of eliminating their capability before it exists. We would be foolish to wait until the threat was actualized. That does not mean the US wants to occupy the territory of every country, it means taking out enemy capability whereever it exists. You can bet that we have our eyes on any country that proclaims the US or Israel to be its enemy with an aim of destroying us. BTW - you guys keep speaking of Bush as if he was the only man establishing US policy. And, I think you believe that. That's not the way our government works.

This is wrong. You obviously must be referring to Israel or another of your allies around the globe - well, it's basically Israel, cause I don't know any other country the USA would go to such lengths for defending them. The rest are ephemeral friends, friends who could be today but could be enemies tomorrow; Israel is a permanent friend. The weapons that a hostile country may build can't reach you. Then where does the threat exist? another 9/11? Why didn't you go after the terrorists instead of Saddam Hussein? Please answer me this. You blew it with Iraq the first time. The second time it happens you will have lost all credibility.
I'm still not satisfied by your answers, I see your point, but if you're on a mission to convince the rest of us about certain things you have to do it better. Some issues are indeed up for discussion...

[bpro50]

Spy, you need to surround yourself with lots of people that agree with you and enjoy your insults and don't question your arguments. You need all of the protection and reinforcement you can get. You "push" me no where, as long as you use personal insults as a basis of your arguments. If you "don't have anything better to do", then why sit around tell others what to think. As long as no one question your opinions, you can sit around and spew out insults against America and somehow stroke your own ego. Should it matter that most disagree with my opinions? I am not trying to persuade you of anything. I am stating my opinions. Why be so hateful toward me? You are entitled to your opinions, but guess what, so am I. Why don't you just keep your personal insults to yourself and let people speak their own mind. Fact is you are not in a position to know and understand US policy as well as I do. Your advantage may be that you can be more objective in your opinion but you are at a distinct disadvange over someone who is a US citizen. I would not be so arrogant as to claim greater knowledge about the politics of Wales. You might want to understand the position of someone who knows the system a little better than you do. Second thought, probably not, you just need someone to agree with you.

[ypsidan04]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Sorry I didn't see that one earlier nath. Well, that is only partly true. Greece as a U.S. ally and a partial member of NATO is not perceived as anti-American by any means.

It doesnt help though that _right before the 2004 Olympics_ the U.S. officially recognized the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia.

There were polls in America that show the majority is for the death penalty, while the rest of the world is against.

Speaking of that, there was an article I read recently that some high-ranking Austrian official was calling for Arnold Schwarzenegger to have his citizenship taken away because he allowed someone to be executed recently in California. Something about he's "the most well known Austrian in the world, and he just did something that is completely against what most Austrians stand for".

For me America is a dangerous place to go, now, not as dangerous as the third world or the Middle East but definitely a distinct level below Europe. So I would avoid visiting, I don't want anything bad to happen to me...

What ever makes you say that?

They are murderers.

Yeah, screw "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law"!

Unlike most of the forumers in this group, most people are glad he is gone

NO ONE is unhappy that he is gone. Some people just would prefer it if he was in power. Those are two very different things.

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by noki_the_cat

In observation of many Americans adopting the perception of the media.
Society may accept a carefully orchestrated strategy devised to manipulate the psychological intellection of a nation.
Psychological Operations is a very affective tool and weapon to induce or reinforce an intended group to a carefully devised objective.
Ultimately altering the behavior of intended population.

Can you explain your point a little further, I am a little confused by what you are saying. The US has a variety of news media promoting various political positions such as CBS being driven by liberal undertones and Fox having more conservative views. I would think that state controlled networks would be the most suspect on manipulating the social pschology of a nation.

[noki_the_cat]

A victim of perception-management and deception of reality and facts by consolidation and implementation of orchestrated psychological situational awareness will concur.

[forre]

Originally Posted by noki_the_cat

A victim of perception-management and deception of reality and facts by consolidation and implementation of orchestrated psychological situational awareness will concur.

Let me give you some help to answer the question.

Originally Posted by bpro50

Can you explain your point a little further, I am a little confused by what you are saying. The US has a variety of news media promoting various political positions such as CBS being driven by liberal undertones and Fox having more conservative views. I would think that state controlled networks would be the most suspect on manipulating the social pschology of a nation.

“Perception management” – also known as “public diplomacy” – is a propaganda strategy for controlling how a target population views political events. Refined by intelligence services as they tried to manipulate foreign populations, the practice eventually seeped into domestic U.S. politics as a way to manipulate post-Vietnam-War-era public opinion.

In the early 1980s, the Reagan-Bush administration saw the “Vietnam Syndrome” – a reluctance to commit military forces abroad – as a strategic threat to robust Cold War policies. So the administration launched an extraordinary effort to influence how the American people perceived overseas events, essentially by exaggerating threats from abroad and demonizing selected foreign leaders.

The strategy is applicable to wide population too and aims towards forming of a subjective view, which is served as a pure objective.

noki_the_cat likes CIA stories.

Source of the quotes above: Bush's 'Perception Management' Plan

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by ypsidan04

It doesnt help though that _right before the 2004 Olympics_ the U.S. officially recognized the Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia.

That is more recent, about 2-3 months old. It was a blow to Greek foreign policy. You mean they recognised them as Macedonia not as F.Y.R.O.M., their official name. I won't get into the technicalities of that move now but it's pretty bad. ( disrespectful to the huge Greek community of the US as well ).
The only good I remember the US is credited for is diffusing a crisis between Greece and Turkey in the mid 90's - that might have resulted in war. But it wasn't them who helped make the Greek-Turkish relations more tolerable, it was nature ( the earthquakes )
And it seems that the solution of the Cypriot problem now lies with the E.U. ( since the Turks want to be part of it )
By the way, you know the U.S. admin position with regards to that, right? Unconditional entry of their ally into the Union: never mind Cyprus, the democratisation process, respect for human rights. They'll work on it once they're in. They deem Turkey as a very important ally and a link of the East with the West...a passage for their troops into the Middle East and a safe haven.
I don't know how long that will continue, since the public opinion in Turkey are against the war in Iraq, and the Turkish government has refused to take any part in it. So we'll see, cause Bush's friends are getting fewer and fewer by the hour.

What ever makes you say that?

Look at what happened to Cat Stevens man...I mean that was a disgrace. So now that the Americans have become insanely obsessed with security - as if they're going to deter another 9/11 if it is to happen - I might find myself in the wrong side of the fence, without even knowing. Though I'd like to experience the air of freedom first hand

[nath]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Frankly bpro50, why are we discussing these issues with you? Who are you anyway? You're almost alone with your views here and frankly you're not going to convince anybody about a single thing with such weak arguments. .

NO ! I think as bpro50, and I think he/she is very intelligent in the way he argues, with calm and in a very decent way !
Congratulations Guy!

So as I'm in a good mood today , i will give you a present : all the reasons to think that I'm more stupid that you thought i was before...
1/ I think one of the biggest mistake/ faults of Bush was his unknowledge of the Middle-East mentality....but in reading your posts ( I speak here in general...Spy , Haku, Ypsidan04..) I'm not sure you caught it better....
I mean , you see Iraq, Iran, Afganisthan, Palestine....JUST with the angle "Countries oppressed by USA"....."small countries face to the Bad Powerful USA".....but I'm not sure you "feel" the mentality better than Bush....
Sorry to tell you that , but I think we are all "equal" of course , all "humans"....bla bla bla....BUT indeed, I think we are all Different: I mean Jewish, Asian or Muslim peoples have absolutely different ways to act and to THINK....
There are too, very big differences between the "diplomatic langage" that people use when they speak to TV for their own marketting , and the way they speak deeply inside....

The cultural behaviour is very different...because of the past and history of each part..

2/ About the chimical weapons: the official papers say that they don't exist...for my part, i have a "personnal conviction"( no google links sorry ...just my own conviction) that Iraq wasn't so CLEAR as you pretend...I don't speak about "finished weapons" but about parts and researches about chimical weapons....
I think these "parts" of chimical weapons have existed ..and that they were moved to Syria or other places or distroyed.....or may be Amercans haven't searched enough well....

3/ About Terrorism: I don't think Iraq was just living its own little life without relations with Terrorism organisations....It's known by everyone that the son of Saddam Hussein himself killed by his own hands some wives, which were suspected to be unfaithful to their husbands or things like that , in the night In the Main market place of Baghdad, to GIVE public exemples and to follow the "Charia's rules"...
My personnal conviction is that Iraq of Hussein had relations with Terrorism.....as IRAN HAS.... If you tell me that Iran doesn't support some Palestinian parties in giving them money and Weapons to create "attentats....don't know english names : when it makes BOOM...explosions.." against Israël ....I would answer to you ..try to be more informed....

So it's good to see always the parts of the small poor little states oppressed by the States....but please , don't underestimate the dangerous sides that these "small poor little states oppressed by the States" could have for the rest of the planet too...
May be Bush is making a "Holly War" for you ....but for me a lot of these countries have begun a "Holly WAR" too...and it's building each days or each friday in the mosques, or in the internet sites....and don't forget , in such case , that the mentalities are different...the price of life isn't really the same...

These are just my convictions.

To conclude: if Asian or Jewish peoples try to conquer the world by their business politics, I don't care....it's just money....even the oil of Middle East i don't care....
if muslim people try to conquer the world by the politic of an "underground expansionist Holy War" I care...I really do....because in such case, my conceptions of freedom and simply life are agressed....and this is the only cause for which I would be a resistant .

And if you want to compare , compare the right things which go together: you speak about death penalty....did the Sates attacked Europe?....so don't compare american society and european societies but american societies with iraqii, afghan, iranian societies...it would be more logical.

[haku]

The root of Arab terrorism is Palestine and the Arab/Israeli conflict. The artificial creation of Israel right at the heart of the Arab world was a political and historical mistake that has caused half a century of terrorism.

Hundred thousands of Palestinians have been expelled from their land by Israel. Those people have become refugees in the occupied territories and all neighboring countries, they have lost everything. The new generations of Palestinians that have been born in this hell expect nothing from life except death, they are all ready to die for the cause.

As long as the case of those Palestinian refugees is not dealt with, Arab terrorism will never stop. If you're pro-Arab that means allowing Palestinian refugees to come back to their land, and if you're pro-Israeli that means "annihilate" Palestinian refugees (one way or another).

The US being totally pro-Israeli, they are obviously following the second course of action. Basically, the US "plan" is to simply remove all Arab/Muslim governments that are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause so that Palestinians won't have any external support left. The US and Israel think that once Palestinians don't have any support left, it will be easy to make them "disappear" and terrorism with them.

The US plan is to ultimately control the whole region from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia, so there are many more wars to come.

[nath]

Originally Posted by haku

. If you're pro-Arab that means allowing Palestinian refugees to come back to their land, and if you're pro-Israeli that means "annihilate" Palestinian refugees (one way or another).

Pat ...this is the pure exemple of an extremist point of view...there are other possible options...
or if you want to stay only on these 2 positions...be fair and write in a such case:
"If you're pro-Arab that means "annihilate" Israelians people (one way or another), and if you're pro-Israeli that means "annihilate" Palestinian refugees (one way or another)"...

Ps: I like you very much Pat,...I discuss but there is nothing agaisnt you as "Pat"...kisss

[spyretto]

nath, I appreciate your comments...

I mean , you see Iraq, Iran, Afganisthan, Palestine....JUST with the angle "Countries oppressed by USA"....."small countries face to the Bad Powerful USA".....but I'm not sure you "feel" the mentality better than Bush....

You didn't get that from me. The point I was making was that USA has to respect the sovereignty of other countries, when they do not pose a direct threat to their security; not use tactics "under the belt" as they frequently did during the Cold War to disrupt the political situation to their liking. I understand the logic behind it. I still think it's unethical.

I didn't get into the specifics of how I perceive Afghanistan, Palestine, Iran, Iraq. There's a a lot of hatred generated towards the West and it's subject to a systematic religious propaganda than to their different mentality and way of thinking which I don't deny. When the children of Iran in mosques and in schools are systematically imbued with ideas that America is evil, that they want to destroy them and their religion, what do the Americans do on their part? They invade Iraq and Afghanistan, to give the propagandists even more ground for spreading their ideas. All the more so, they seem to cultivate their own parallel propaganda. If you ask an American what they think of these people, chances are that the response you're gonna get is that they're "evil". This is Bush's perception of the world, in black and white terms. We are the good guys, they're the bad guys, cops and robbers. It seems that many people in America take the president's ideas as a given...and there you have a vicious circle of hatred.

2/ About the chimical weapons: the official papers say that they don't exist...for my part, i have a "personnal conviction"( no google links sorry ...just my own conviction) that Iraq wasn't so CLEAR as you pretend...I don't speak about "finished weapons" but about parts and researches about chimical weapons....
I think these "parts" of chimical weapons have existed ..and that they were moved to Syria or other places or distroyed.....or may be Amercans haven't searched enough well....

Maybe Iraq was not clean. Maybe they indeed had something, programs, parts, researches, whatever you can call it. Does it still necessitate the invasion? I don't think so. Did they go by Bush's ideas that Saddam Hussein has to be removed? Why did an invasion masterminded on the premise of the existence of weapons and in the name of the US security become "Iraqui freedom" along the way? That gives an indication that the evidence the U.S. intelligence had was not strong and they sought to divert the focus of attention to something else, democracy and freedom. That was for public consumption. So I don't think that what America had in their hands at that time was enough to justify the invasion. I believe it was rushed by George W Bush because it was part of his agenda prior to his election. We know that because we heard him say it.

3/ About Terrorism: I don't think Iraq was just living its own little life without relations with Terrorism organisations....It's known by everyone that the son of Saddam Hussein himself killed by his own hands some wives, which were suspected to be unfaithful to their husbands or things like that , in the night In the Main market place of Baghdad, to GIVE public exemples and to follow the "Charia's rules"...
My personnal conviction is that Iraq of Hussein had relations with Terrorism.....as IRAN HAS.... If you tell me that Iran doesn't support some Palestinian parties in giving them money and Weapons to create "attentats....don't know english names : when it makes BOOM...explosions.." against Israël ....I would answer to you ..try to be more informed....

There's no denying of the brutality of Saddam's regime, it's all well documented. Yeah his sons were rapists and murderers. The links with al Qaeda have not been established however. If they were, something would have come in light about it up to now. We're still waiting.

To conclude: if Asian or Jewish peoples try to conquer the world by their business politics, I don't care....it's just money....even the oil of Middle East i don't care....
if muslim people try to conquer the world by the politic of an "underground expansionist Holy War" I care...I really do....because in such case, my conceptions of freedom and simply life are agressed....and this is the only cause for which I would be a resistant.

Yeah, the sentiment must exist, the propaganda exists but they have neither the power nor the recources. On the contrary, the only expansionist wars were conducted by political forces based on the Western model of leadership like Saddam Hussein's. Saddam Hussein modernised and somehow westernised Iraq. He then turned into a secular leader and tried to expand his country to help his ailing economy.
I do not therefore subscribe to such scaremongering. Even if the grains of such masterplan are there, our response should be different. Even if invisible webs are preparing some kind of underground holy war to take over the world force wil make things easier for them, and increase the hatred and indignation. That's why I'm proposing that the U.S. is equipped with more imagination and less narrow-mindedness. The Europeans should also stop sitting on their asses too. Yours rationale reads as a counterpoise to the muslim perception that George Bush is carrying out a Crusade to Christianise all muslims. No matter how much I like conspiracy theories, I cannot subscribe to either one. To conclude nath I think that maybe it's a good idea to start caring about what you just described because it's here and it's tangible: it's called globalisation and it may, just may, turn out to be the new imperialism. It is also one way to see the Iraqi war.

I also agree with haku that the Palestinians have suffered more than anybody else and are suffering every day, so I wouldn't equate them with the rest. The aggressor is very much Israel in this case. They fight with tanks and technology, whereas the Palestinians fight with suicidal bombers. It's not the same...

[bpro50]

Originally Posted by nath

NO ! I think as bpro50, and I think he/she is very intelligent in the way he argues, with calm and in a very decent way !
Congratulations Guy!

Thanks for your kind statement. I am a guy and nothing special. Just someone that thinks there is room enough on this forum for a "moderate conservative". I believe that dialogue is really important and I enjoy learning from all of your differences. Thanks again. I was feeling pretty low.

[ypsidan04]

The only good I remember the US is credited for is diffusing a crisis between Greece and Turkey in the mid 90's - that might have resulted in war.

I dont know, part of me thinks that conflict is mostly Greece's fault. They feel they have a right to islands that are a couple miles from mainland Turkey and a hundred miles from mainland Greece (I dont know the exact numbers, but you get my point). If they settled and drew a new border right down the middle of the Aegean Sea, that might help things. Plus Cyprus is another problem. If they could settle on one or the other having control of it - again I think Turkey is more deserving since it's closer to Turkish mainland - then that would be another problem solved. I know it's a complete independent nation, but I also think that the government is just a puppet for Athens and/or Ankara. And I know it's easier said than done, but if you look at it from a geographic standpoint, Greece has overstepped its bounds. But then there's the ethnicity problem. I'll bet that those islands off the coast of Turkey have ethnic Greeks living there, and they wouldn't want to have to live in Turkey all of a sudden or be forced to move.

Originally Posted by Haku

The artificial creation of Israel right at the heart of the Arab world was a political and historical mistake that has caused half a century of terrorism.

The reason for terrorism is not because Israel exists, it's because of the refusal of the Arab world to recognize that Israel has a right to exist and also a right to exist where it has always been - right next to them. Secondly, it seems to me that you imply two ludicrous ideas: 1) Israel never should have been created in the first place, and 2) There was some place better for it. I mean the Jews, my ancestors, were on this Earth for a very long time without a place to call their own. And then the Holocaust was the last straw. World opinion took pity in them, and the British gave up their colony Palestine and Israel was created. Never should have been created? On the contrary, it should have been done before 1947. There were and are just too many Jewish people on this Earth for them not to have a homeland. And dont even start with the Kurds, or the Basques, or the Chechens, because those are such small populations, and especially the latter two have no business being granted independence if they can't be peaceful. And you said "right at the heart of the Arab world", implying it should have been put someplace else. What do you propose then? Someplace better suited than were they have lived since Biblical times? Someplace better suited than where their holiest sites are? No, there's just no better answer than where it is. Read: Spyretto too.

The new generations of Palestinians that have been born in this hell expect nothing from life except death, they are all ready to die for the cause.

That's no excuse. African Americans and women in this country didn't go around killing white men to get equal rights.

We are the good guys, they're the bad guys

Literally. He actually says "bad guys".

The links with al Qaeda have not been established however

Of course they have!

[noki_the_cat]

Originally Posted by bpro50

I believe that dialogue is really important and I enjoy learning from all of your differences. Thanks again.

The possessor of wisdom and knowledge bares a responsibility of verisimilitude and accuracy with out being contumelious to be honorable to humanity.
Ones own belief, based on ones experience may be insufficient to precisely comprehend and convey chronicles.
In depth examination of archives, forensic investigation of topography and interviewing observers is deemed necessary to concur authenticity.

[forre]

Originally Posted by noki_the_cat

The possessor of wisdom and knowledge bares a responsibility of verisimilitude and accuracy with out being contumelious to be honorable to humanity.
Ones own belief, based on ones experience may be insufficient to precisely comprehend and convey chronicles.
In depth examination of archives, forensic investigation of topography and interviewing observers is deemed necessary to concur authenticity.

As well as the more we know the more we understand that we know nothing and finally everything is relative in this world.

[noki_the_cat]

Originally Posted by forre

As well as the more we know the more we understand that we know nothing and finally everything is relative in this world.

Creatures of earth are as mere educatees of life.

[forre]

noki_the_cat, we are both off topic, hi-hi.

The rest, go on with sharing your knowledge, opinions and views. Don't listen to us.