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19-01-2005, 23:35 | #21 | ||
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The "Pomaci" are of Albanian decent I think? Some used to live in some parts of Greece and there was an issue of them asking compensation? what about the gypsies? Balkans is a hot-pot ready to explode, or what?
I'm confused, there's a Greek rock singer who has a song about the Balkan people. Will find the lyrics and translate them to see in case they give a new insight to my ignorance Quote:
I think that eventually - and as long as Greece don't give up on the fight - they will have to backdown themselves - cause their economic development depends a lot on their good relations with Greece...will see how this develops. The Greeks are now on a favourable position even as far Turkey is concerned cause they will have to -eventually- recognise a unified Cyprus. And all that cause politicians were quick to get us in the EU Quote:
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19-01-2005, 23:46 | #22 | ||
Bitchka
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I will ignore the Macedonia discussion for now, no time, but yes, its such a delicate subject ... and of course today's Macedonia and ... Alexander's 'Macedonia' are not the same thing, but it is not as simple as black and white either ... anyways
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baaaaaaaah, I now desparately need to refresh my history knowledge on THAT part of the balkans .... unless a romanian shows up faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast and speak! hihi Quote:
oh btw, this reminds me, there is something Mongolian in the Bulgarians as well! I think it comes with the protoBulgarians - they were powerful worriors on horses, rather than the calmer and 'ground working' Slavs (english ? : what do you call a person that works with land? draws stuff and so on excuse my dumb question) |
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20-01-2005, 00:09 | #23 | ||
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You mean oppose the Romans to create their own country, not the Greeks. The Greeks did not play any part in the region. Was Romania part of the Byzantine empire or did they exist independently? According to wikipedia, there were different tribes and eventually 3 different territories, some under the Roman empire and some under Bulgarian influence as well. I wonder if those were connected in any way. Quote:
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20-01-2005, 00:51 | #24 |
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By the way, looking at the info under "Bulgaria", I noticed that Bulgaria was always in the way of Greece and vice versa and they always have been adversaries.
Basil the II of the Byzantine was nicknamed "Bulgar-Killer" and he's is a huge hero of the clashes between the Bulgars and the Byzantine Greeks. Later Bulgaria and Greece fought in the Balkan Wars. Finally in both WWI and WWII, Bulgaria sided with the Germans. So that's where some of the hostility is generated from. We have never been in good terms. There's the general idea that the Bulgars were barbaric hordes and extremely vicious, even worse than the Ottomans were - at least the Greeks coexisted with the Turks for some 400 years. That is my guess, I never paid attention at school. |
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20-01-2005, 01:10 | #25 |
Sad Little Monkey
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I think the point with Romanians (or the tribes from which they descended from), was that they were in the region LONG before anyone else, even Slavs. Probably in the days when Illires lived there. So they probably had alligances with all the surrounding ethnicities and probably support from the Roman empire at one point. I mean, where else would the latin-based language come from. Of course those are only speculations. No one knows anything definite when it comes to Romanian origin.
And the Hungarians. Their language is Ugro-Fininsh, but their genes are a mix of austrain/germanic and balkan/slavic. So god knows where they came from as well. |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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20-01-2005, 09:19 | #26 | |
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The NLA (National Liberation Army) known as UCK(M) Macedonian wing of the Kosovo Liberation Army has turned the Balkans into a civil war. The para-military policemen known as Tigri or Tigers are of the Special Forces. They held ground as they seek cover from incoming mortar and small arms fire from the hillside over looking the community. Heavy machine-gunners answer the threat returning fire to the hillside covered by armored personal carriers. Artillery fire commences on the last known position of the insurgence. Helicopters strafe the houses on the perimeter with auto-rotary fire. The hillside is battle-scared as the poor citizens hope for peace, living in fear and traumatized from the relentless senseless quarrels that plague the area. Deep into the community you will find in the street damage marks from the incoming mortars that damage the road. The spots are the size of hubcaps for the small 60mm. Chinese mortars. Many are not so lucky; 81mm incoming mortars hissing through the air send shivers into the victims, as they freeze from the terror shocking through their nerves. You hear the hiss of incoming mortars run, dive for cover now! Through the walls shrapnel and coble stones fly, tearing through victims. A hellhole filled with the poor innocent that desperately need calm and peace to return to their traumatized lives. |
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Global Expeditionist, World traveler. Гловальная экспедиция, путешественник мира.Global Freeman, Equality for humanity! Last edited by noki_the_cat; 30-01-2005 at 20:19. |
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20-01-2005, 15:39 | #27 | ||
Bitchka
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Thanks spy for the info
Well, I never paid too much attention at school, only after graduation i became more interested in the subject - funny ah. Quote:
I dont remember how it went with the Roman Empire influence in the region - will look into that, but it is obvious there is something 'fishy' going on with that isolated 'Roman' island in the middle of all the rest of us... Quote:
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20-01-2005, 17:03 | #28 | ||
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Before the Indo-Europeans settled in Europe, Europe was populated by the so-called Megalithic peoples (the ones who have left all those stone monuments in western Europe), those peoples also created the civilizations of Mycenae and Crete in proto-Greece. The Megalithic peoples have been totally annihilated by Indo-Europeans when they settled in Europe. Now Romanians. Romanians are descendants of Dacians. Dacians were among the first wave of Indo-Europeans who settled in Europe, they arrived there maybe around 2000 BC along with Celtics, Italics, and Greeks. Each of those Indo-European families settled in various regions of Europe, Dacians settled in the Danube region, near the black sea, north of the Greeks. Of course, as we all know, Celtics, Dacians, and Greeks were all later conquered by the Italics who founded the Roman Empire. Quote:
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20-01-2005, 17:55 | #29 | |
Bitchka
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Thanks haku.
I spent few mins looking up things.... Quote:
"Tracians were a conglomerate of numerous tribes. The formation of the Thracian tribal community appreciably antecedes the emergence of the other Indo-European communities - the Roman, the Celtic, the German, the Slavic and the Scandinavian. The ancestors of the Thracians had lived on the Balkan Peninsula as far back as the new Stone Age. Experts use the term 'Proto-Thracians' to describe the inhabitants of an extensive area in South-Eastern Europe during the third and second millennium B.C. The name 'Thracians' first appeared at the end of the second millennium B.C. (according to Homer). 'From that time on this term gradually became the common ethnonym for the inhabitants of the area between the Carpathians and the Aegean Sea, the Black Sea and the valleys of the Morava and Vardar rivers' (Acad. V. Georgiev, Prof. A. Foll and Prof. G.I. Georgiev). The people in question spoke related or similar dialects of a common language. During the twelfth and eleventh centuries B.C. the Thracians settled not only on the peninsular mainland and the Mediterranean islands, but also moved south-eastwards into Asia Minor." Full article could be found here: http://www.eunet.bg/books/history/index.html ... as well as articles on Slavs, protoBulgarians, Bulgarian Kingdom, Bulgaria under Ottoman rulling and so on ... pretty much as I remember history being thought to a Bulgarian kid in school So really, it is Thraco-Dacians we are talking about ... (http://greek-gods.tripod.com/Thracians.htm )which seems to be the tribes (one?) that were living in today's Bulgaria and Romania ..... so I am still interested to know why the Slavs merged with the ones that were in Bulgaria, but not really with the ones that were in Romania .... |
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20-01-2005, 18:21 | #30 | |||
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As for why Dacians were able to maintain their power in that part, it's probably because they had enough military power to push back the Slavs, military power that they had probably inherited from remnants of the Roman Empire. |
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20-01-2005, 18:23 | #31 |
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excuse my double post, but I am not adding:
"These relations to a large extent determined the political situation in the Balkans. What we have in mind here are not the relations between two Balkan nations. Byzantium was an agglomeration of various ethnic communities - within her borders lived various Hellenized peoples, apart from the Greeks. In the multi-national empire, which stretched across three continents - Europe, Asia and Africa, the dominant language was Greek, which in the seventh century was made the official state and religious language. In this sense we can only conditionally differentiate between the Greek and Byzantine identity. The Greeks themselves, the Thracians, and the other Balkan peoples, were conquered by Rome. The Greeks called themselves Hellenes, and their country Hellas. The Romans were the first to call them Greeks - after the Grecoes, a small tribe in Epirus who were the most familiar to the Romans. This name was later adopted by the Slavs. The relations between Bulgaria and Byzantium from the foundation of the Bulgarian state in 681 to the end of the fourteenth century when Bulgaria was conquered by the Ottomans, had two major features. The Bulgarian rulers, on the one hand, aspired to conquer Constantinople and inherit the empire. On the other hand, the Byzantines regarded the Bulgarian state as temporarily holding imperial territory and tried by various means - wars, political dealing and manoeuvering, religion and culture, to subjugate it. Byzantium eventually succeeded in conquering the Bulgarian state and kept it for more tFian a century and a half - from 1018 to 1187. For this reason the history of Mediaeval Bulgaria is divided into three periods: the First Bulgarian Kingdom, Byzantine domination and the Second Bulgarian Kingdom." yeah, we always loved eachother spy "Despite repeated demonstrations of her military might in the wars against Byzantium, Bulgaria suffered defeat with fatal consequences at a time when it had reached the peak of its territorial expansion and political power. Researchers point out many reasons for this, one of which was the conquering strategy itself of the Bulgarian rulers: they tried to conquer Constantinople by land only. This is characteristic both of Khan Kroum (803-814) and Tsar Simeon (b.864; 893-927). Simeon was the first to title himself 'Tsar of all Bulgarians and Byzantines'. The Bulgarian royal title 'Tsar' derived from the Gothic 'kaisar', which, having passed through the Latin 'Caesar', had been transcribed into tsar in accordance with the specifics of the Bulgarian speech. This title makes no secret of the desires of the Bulgarian rulers to occupy the throne of the Eastern half of the former Roman empire." and people in the west think 'Tsar' is a Russian thing .... as well as they think WE speak/use language derived from Russian .. here shows MY Balkan PRIDE! ... and at the same time ... we, the barberian bulgars ..... complte and TRUE Balkaniers ha ha On the Christianity and Slavic Language: "Bulgarian-Byzantine relations also had a number of objective consequences, as a result of which the Bulgarian people became an alloy which weathered all vicissitudes of history. Of tremendous importance was the adoption of Christianity in 865. An oecumenical council in the second Bulgarian capital of Preslav voted in 893 to introduce a script, valid both for state and church, based on the spoken vernacular of the majority of the country's population - the language of the Bulgarian Slavs. Both acts were the doing of Prince Boris (852-889; d. in 907). At great expense of effort and bloodshed, not even sparing the first-born son, Prince Boris overcame the internal rejection of contemporary Bulgarian society and imposed Christianity as the official state religion. The adoption of Christianity was above all an important political act, aimed at bringing Bulgaria up to the level of the advanced states of the time. Having joined Bulgaria to the Eastern Orthodox Church, Prince Boris made the next decisive move. With his support and aid, after 886 religious activities began to be carried out in the Slavonic language, using the script and the works of the Slav apostles Constantine-Cyril and Methodius. The mission of the two brothers as official emissaries of Byzantium to Great Moravia encountered hardships and ordeals to eventually mature into a great cause which radically affected the better part of the Slavs. Persecuted and tortured by the German clergy, the disciples of Cyril and Methodius were heartily welcomed in Bulgaria, which thus became the cradle of the Slav alphabet and culture. The daring rejection of the trilingual dogma (according to which Christianity could only be preached in Latin, Greek and Hebrew) quickly found practical application. Ten years after the cause of Cyril and Methodius became Bulgarian state policy, Greek was banished from the religious service. Even in the remotest settlements, the western areas included, where Kliment of Ohrid, the disciple and associate of Cyril and Methodius, worked (840-916), the service was read in Slav-Bulgarian, or as it has been named for the sake of accuracy - in Old Bulgarian. The Old Bulgarian literary language helped the independent development of the Bulgarians. This took place at a time when the greater part of Mediaeval Europe had no national literary languages and made use of Latin and Greek. The Bulgarian script spread on the basis of a rich folklore heritage." |
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20-01-2005, 18:39 | #32 | |||
Bitchka
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your memory is better than mine! Quote:
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(what year did Romania become Romania btw? Pretty recently no? ) |
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20-01-2005, 19:53 | #33 | |
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Well, as far as Greece is concerned - and from what I remember they taught us at school - the Myceneans were not Thracians . The Thracians were an Indo-European tribe who occupied the region of Thrace - this region today is divided between Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey.
There was another tribe, called the Achaeans who are taken to be the original inhabitants of the region. that's what they taught us at school but that's not necessarily 100% true. However: Quote:
There is speculation that the Trojans could be ancient Achaeans as well. Then around the 1c BC, another tribe came from the north, the Dorians, who invaded Greece and defeated the Achaeans. So the modern Greeks may be descentants of that tribe. It could all be BS as well because there was a long "dark" period after the Dorians emerged, that lasted for several centuries and until 800 BC. where there emerged the golden age of Ancient Greece; but there's hardly any evidence of that "dark" period, so it's like a big break there. The Achaeans may have revolted against them, cause then the Spartans are supposed to be Dorian descentants - but not the rest. The Slavs came later, so I don't suppose the Dorians were Slavs The Tracians and the Thracians? jee I'll have to go back and read all that...but you're talking about the 11-12 century AD ( not 1-2 c BC ) There's a bit of a difference there. The Slavs are supposed to have emerged around 4-5 c AD jee, I'm confused. That "source" sounds really dodgy, what kind of English is that? My source was wikipedia - as usual |
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02-02-2005, 20:12 | #34 |
Bitchka
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So, I came here to add this thought....
some scholars believe that Romania is the place where the Roman Empire sent their criminals ... kinda like a 'prison' for the 'barbarians' .... sounds convincing enough to me |
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03-02-2005, 01:29 | #35 | |
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freddie | TatySite.net t.E.A.m. [ multyman@hotmail.com ] Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. |
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03-02-2005, 01:57 | #36 | |
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15-11-2006, 14:44 | #37 |
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Here's an article about how some south Slavic people may actually be of Iranian origin:
Common Origin of Croats, Serbs and Jats Interesting, i had actually never heard about that. |
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15-11-2006, 15:04 | #38 | |
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origin was never too much explored here before, cos we were all "brothers and sisters", but since 90's many scientists study that area. |
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26-03-2007, 16:23 | #39 |
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UN plans for Kosovo independence
The United Nations envoy for Kosovo says independence is the "only viable option" for the territory, in a report to the Security Council. The envoy, Finnish diplomat Martti Ahtisaari, says Kosovo should have internationally-supervised independence for an initial period. Serbia has rejected a previous outline of the proposals, which have been broadly accepted by Kosovo Albanians. Russia - a traditional ally of Serbia - is threatening to veto the plan. Kosovo has been administered by the UN since 1999, when Nato air strikes ended a Serbian offensive against the ethnic Albanian majority. But the territory remains legally part of Serbia. A final round of talks between top Serbian and ethnic Albanian leaders on the future of Kosovo ended without agreement. Once Mr Ahtisaari has presented his final plan to the Security Council, it will then be up to the UN's highest body to decide whether to approve or reject his proposals. "Independence is the only viable option for a politically stable and economically viable Kosovo," Mr Ahtisaari said in the report. "I propose the exercise of Kosovo's independence... be supervised and supported for an initial period by international civilian and military presences." BBC |
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26-03-2007, 17:42 | #40 |
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US and EU back Kosovo independence by May
The US and EU have backed a UN plan for "supervised independence" in Kosovo despite Russian and Serb opposition, with US diplomat Nicholas Burns in Brussels calling for a new UN security council resolution 30 to 60 days from Monday (26 March). "The US fully supports the proposals put forward by Martti Ahtisaari," the US' number three man on foreign affairs told experts at a seminar by think-tank CEPS in the EU capital, a few hours before UN envoy Martti Ahtisaari submitted his Kosovo blueprint to UN chief Ban Ki Moon in New York. "It's time to bring a century of peace to the Balkans, to see Kosovo independent and to see a democratic and strong Serbia," the American said, with UK foreign secretary Margaret Beckett adding shortly afterward from London she "welcomes UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari's final settlement proposals." The Ahtisaari plan envisages giving Pristina its own army, flag and constitution and the possibility of applying to join international institutions like the UN and EU, but with thousands of NATO and EU troops keeping the peace and an EU envoy that can veto some Kosovo government decisions. "Independence is the only viable option for a politically stable and economically viable Kosovo," Mr Ahtisaari's final recommendation stated, Reuters reports, in a bold, new tone after months of negotiations in Vienna, Belgrade and Pristina that avoided using the painful word "independence." Speaking to press the same day, EU top diplomat Javier Solana still remained shy of the term, opting to use the phrase "the work of president Ahtisaari" instead while expressing his support for the ex-Finnish president's ideas. In terms of a timetable for the solution, the US' Mr Burns said "we're not going to rush to a security council resolution" mentioning "late April or early May" and "30 to 60 days" down the line as targets to get all five veto-holding powers in the UN - the US, UK, France, Russia and China - on board. The biggest EU foreign policy players back the US line, but some EU states such as Spain, Greece, Romania, Slovakia and Cyprus sympathise with Belgrade. Serbia has denounced the Ahtisaari plan and Russia has threatened to veto anything unacceptable to its historic ally. China has been silent so far. Mr Burns' statement kicks off a heavy week of Kosovo diplomacy, with the US talking to NATO states in Brussels on Kosovo for the next two days, Mr Ahtisaari briefing EU ambassadors on Tuesday and EU foreign ministers devoting a Friday meeting to the topic. Almost exactly 8 years ago on 24 March 1999 NATO began a bombing campaign in Kosovo designed to halt what Mr Burns called Serbian "ethnic cleansing" against the ethnic Albanians who form 93 percent of the population. The Serb province has been under UN rule ever since. Kosovo is US and EU's top priority The US diplomat said the task of EU and US foreign policy today is to "produce peace and stability in the world" adding "our first priority is to be successful in the Balkans, to complete the revolution that has taken place there since the 1990s." In terms of handling Serb objections to the move, Mr Burns said he planned to call moderate Serb president Boris Tadic this week to explain "we are a friend to Serbia" and guarantee US protection for ethnic Serb enclaves and holy sites in the region. The EU approach is similar, with Brussels offering to unfreeze Belgrade's EU accession talks despite lack of full cooperation with the UN on war crimes fugitives and with the new EU envoy in Kosovo to focus on keeping ethnic Serbs safe. The US and EU are also reading from the same page on how to handle Russia, praising Moscow for its help on international problems like Iran and North Korea but scotching Russian talk of Kosovo independence as a precedent for rebels in Georgia or Moldova. "Our second task [in terms of EU-US foreign policy priorities] is to have good relations with Russia," Mr Burns said. "[But] we certainly would not support any other trade, or precedent that would link Kosovo to other problems in Europe." The American went a bit further than most European diplomats might dare, saying those countries who "made the biggest sacrifice" in terms of Kosovo military intervention and post-conflict aid - NATO and EU states - should take the lead in the region. Iraq legacy dogs US In an aside on recent Russian complaints the US has a "unipolar" world view, Mr Burns said assertively "My country finds itself the most powerful country economically and militarily...we have a lot of power, but we want to use that power for good, peacefully." It was left to CEPS expert and ex-EU ambassador to Russia, Michael Emerson, to remind Mr Burns that when Bush junior became US president in 2002, he said "the US doesn't need allies" before wading into Iraq. The Iraq adventure - which has seen over 600,000 civilians killed since 2003 - caused a serious rift between the US and France and Germany, with many ordinary left-leaning Europeans suddenly seeing the US with new, post-Cold War eyes as an oil-hungry imperialist not a force for good. "Many senior analysts say the [US] language may change a bit, but the fundamentals remain obstinately constant," Mr Emerson suggested. "I think there's a bipartisan consensus in my country - and I'm a career diplomat not a Republican or a Democrat - there's a consensus that America cannot live in the world alone," Mr Burns replied. "There's a great distance between those statements and the reality today." EU Observer |
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