Discussions on Islam and religion in general

fanoff · 07-02-2006, 20:35

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/eu...rap/index.html

check the poll of cnn out and find out what people think.then decide if i am intolerant

rosh · 07-02-2006, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber

And i didn't know that Mohammed had a 6 year old bride, no comment.

he didnt

depending on who you choose to believe of course. having studied my religion, his 3rd bride who youre talking about, was b/t the ages of 15-20 when they married.

im sure if you google for this youll find loads of articles claiming she was a 6 yr old bride with evidence. you will also find loads of articles claiming she was a teenager, with evidence.

you can believe whichever suits your purpose.

Argos · 07-02-2006, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here...

Better here ...

In the cosmos we are free
there's no atmosphere and no obsession...

I think muslim extremists will not reach space that soon...

haku · 07-02-2006, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....

Haha, i'm not surprised.

Obviously he missed the point that the French constitution is strictly laic and therefore totally free of any religious reference of any kind.

That's the problem with Muslim immigrants, they don't want to integrate into the hosting country, but they want to impose their own beliefs and laws on the entire population.
But our ancestors fought the Christian church in 1789 during the French revolution to free the people from the clerical oppression and we are not going to let another clergy oppress us.

rosh · 07-02-2006, 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber

That's the problem with Muslim immigrants, they don't want to integrate into the hosting country, but they want to impose their own beliefs and laws on the entire population.
But our ancestors fought the Christian church in 1789 during the French revolution to free the people from the clerical oppression and we are not going to let another clergy oppress us.

ill never understand why muslim immigrants try and force sharia law wherever they go. when i got my islamic education i was specifically taught to tolerate and accept all other religions as they were religions of the same god. also, its against the teachings of islam [and i dont mean the flavour fundamentalists choose to try and spread] to force your religious beliefs on someone else.

islam is a religion of tolerance. many muslims just dont happen to be tolerant.

haku · 07-02-2006, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosh

you can believe whichever suits your purpose.

I have no interest in believing or not believing this particular detail, for me all religions are myths anyway, fictions, so it doesn't matter what they say.

My only purpose is to be free from any religious oppression, i am a typical French republican in that regard, i am strictly laic and i do not recognize any authority to any religious organization.

rosh · 07-02-2006, 21:27

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm

Controversial Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri has been jailed for seven years after being found guilty of inciting murder and race hate.

finally. been waiting for this to happen for a while. my hope is that this sends out a message to other people [not just extremist muslims] who preach hate speech

teeny · 07-02-2006, 21:31

thanks for the link Forre.. first time I got to see the drawings fully. I like the one with the text where the one guy try to calm down the upset people by saying it's only a drawing after all

PowerPuff Grrl · 07-02-2006, 21:50

Let's not start preaching anti-immigration nationalism here because that precisiely plays into the hands of anti-immigration nationalists and Islamic extremists. You can't possibly paint all Muslims with the same brush because most are moderate. The problem is with the image of Islam. The West keeps hearing "Islam is about peace" but we aren't actually seeing it. Sure you can say that Islam is a young religion and that 500 years ago Christianity was even worse. But Islam in the dark ages was enlightened, they weren't crazy like Europeans. Jews were proctected under Muslims. Ancient phliosophies of Aristotle, Plato and Socrates were preserved because of the Muslims. Algebra was invented by Muslims. Christians were to busy buring down libraries, Orthodox Churches, Jews, Women, and inventing racism to give a fuck.
We know what happened with Christianity later on.
But what the fuck happened with Islam?

Yes technically I know what happened (the Empire crumbled and reverted back to its Bedouin culture). But how the hell did moderates let this happen? How can they still let this happen?
You can't blame the West for having a distorted view of Islam when the most prominent leaders of Islam are Osmam Bin Laden, Al-Zaqarwi, Al-Zawari, Mohammed Ahmadenijad (sp?), etc...
Christians have their crazy leaders too; Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, but we have good leaders to counteract that; Rev. Martin Luther King, every nameless Christian that helps out in every single disaster.
There are no good, tolerant, influential Muslim leaders to counteract the crazy fundamentalists. (Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani seems likely but he's too content living in a small village in Iraq, and he's Shiite).

I fear there'll be a tipping point soon. Something will happen on the scale of the Fundamentalist's reaction to the cartoons and 9/11, something that will really shake up the West to react to the Muslim world in the same ferocity of the Fundamentalists. This can actually lead to a Holy War which is what these crazy fucks want. We can't let that happen. We can't let our protectionist instincts view all Muslims as a threat, then act on that threat, especially when they aren't all a threat. And we all know that nobody, nobody can survive the wrath of crazy Christians.

Our frustrations should not be towards the crazy fundamentalists because there are crazy fundamentalists everywhere (imagine Christianity ruled by Fred Phelps). Our frustrations should be trageted towards moderate Muslims who won't stand up against this bullshit and therefore let the crazies gain so much authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

Specially for Pat:
Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....

The director of the french newspaper "France Soir" was fired cause he has published the caricatures.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html
Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here...

The editor of the Jordanian newspaper that published the photos and called for moderation was arrested and charge on counts of Blasphemy. Considering that Jordan is pretty tolerant, I'm guessing that the gov't is protecting from worse punishment from fundamentalists.

Concerning Sharia Law; Muslim clerics proposed both the Provincial Government of Quebec and Ontario to adopt Sharia law for family cases since the Christians and Jews can do so. Sounds reasonable but while the Christian and Jewish family mediators parallel Canadian Family Law, Sharia of course favours the men moreso than the women in family conflict.
Guess who opposed the proposal?
No really guess?
Muslims... unanimoulsy.

So Amber don't tell me that Muslims cannot integrate well into Western society when they do so everywhere else. That shit is a European problem with the fault mostly on European hands.

Oh and Queenbee; it's the Shia's that are relatively tolerant and the Sunni's that are not. Sunni dominated countries: Saudi Arabia (full covering of a woman's body, ban on women driving), Afghanistan Taliban-era (need I say more). Shia dominated countries: Iraq (women allowed to drive) and Iran (25% of film directors are women and the women wear hijabs like Grace Kelly

).

Also take into account that Sunnis hate Shia's and think they are all going to hell. They sometimes even bomb their Mosques and have terrorist attacks on them during religious holidays as you see in Iraq. Never the other way around.

zelda05 · 07-02-2006, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Sunni dominated countries: Saudi Arabia (full covering of a woman's body, ban on women driving)...

ban on women driving? Gas prices too high?!

haku · 07-02-2006, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Concerning Sharia Law; Muslim clerics proposed both the Provincial Government of Quebec and Ontario to adopt Sharia law for family cases since the Christians and Jews can do so. Sounds reasonable but while the Christian and Jewish family mediators parallel Canadian Family Law, Sharia of course favours the men moreso than the women in family conflict.
Guess who opposed the proposal?
No really guess?
Muslims... unanimoulsy.

Well, here we don't have special laws depending on your religion, it's the same law for everyone.
But Muslims indeed want the Sharia to be adopted in France, and not just for them but for everyone, they want the legalization of polygamy, they want the right to 'discipline' their women, several young women born on French soil but of Arab origin have actually been seriously beaten up (or burned alive with gasoline, or disfigured with acid to their faces) by their own families because they had become 'French whores' (understand normal women who do what any other western woman do), they want the right to force teenage girls to marry men from their 'homeland' (they won't ever allow a marriage with a French person), generally the young girl (12 to 16 years old) is sent on "vacation" to the "homeland" where she'll discover that she's actually there to get married to a man she has never seen, she'll get raped during the wedding night (but of course that's not a rape according to them, forcing a rebellious bride is a cultural tradition that must be respected, it's like taming a horse apparently or something), and then she'll get back from "vacation" with her new husband who will be allowed a visa since they are now husband and wife, basically they want our country to become exactly like their country, whether we like it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

That shit is a European problem with the fault mostly on European hands.

That's a bit easy, Muslims are the ones doing the violence, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones blowing up bombs in our cities killing hundreds of civilians, but it's our fault, Mulsims are the ones decapitating western hostages, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones stuck with a mentality belonging to the Middle Ages, but it's our fault.
It's great to be a Muslim, whatever you do, it's never your fault.

PowerPuff Grrl · 08-02-2006, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber

That's a bit easy, Muslims are the ones doing the violence, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones blowing up bombs in our cities killing hundreds of civilians, but it's our fault, Mulsims are the ones decapitating western hostages, but it's our fault, Muslims are the ones stuck with a mentality belonging to the Middle Ages, but it's our fault.
It's great to be a Muslim, whatever you do, it's never your fault.

Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.

Muslims are offered welfare to make up for having absolutley no way of moving up in society. They are constantly reminded that they aren't European, and never will be and that the only reason why they get to live in Europe it because of the "charity" of kind Europeans.

Europe created a bubble for Muslims to rot under, making them ripe for Islamic fundamentalists.
So no, it may not be all your fault, but you sure as shit aren't all that innocent either.

freddie · 08-02-2006, 01:16

The problem is quite clear: the appaling condition most muslims live in, especially in the Middle East makes them more prone to be influenced and manipulated. We're talking about generations and generations living in a constant existencial crisis and poverty. All they have is a religion that offers them salvation and the end of all earthly suffering. OF COURSE they'll grab on to it with both hands... and of course there'll be people who'll try to exploit this, turning regular people into cannon fodder for their terrotorial/political claims. Just as Christianity was massively popular among the slaves of the Roman Empire, since it promised them an after-life where they wouldn't suffer anymore. What could be more appealing than that? All Roman paganism offered them was a life of slavery. People need hope. A way out - even if it's completely ridiculous and unplausable. Same thing with Islam. All these "after-life" religions were a product of suffering and lure of the possible salvation. And there were always people perfectly capable of exploiting that human trait.

I agree with the point how moderate Muslims are the key in this difficult times - only they can stand up and say enough is enough, renouncing violence once and forever (and when I say moderate I don't mean the inbetween ones, like a certain member of this forum - the ones that throw up ignorance and spite without really knowing what the hell they're saying). If Islam is really a religion of peace then fucking SHOW it. Passively watching their offended peers burning down foreign embassies, while only commenting on these unfortunate cartoons, is almost like quiet affirmation... there's a saying in roman law: "He who doesn't speak about the matter is considered to be approving." It's called tacita consensus. That's exactly what moderate Muslims are doing at the moment.

haku · 08-02-2006, 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.

Muslims are offered welfare to make up for having absolutley no way of moving up in society. They are constantly reminded that they aren't European, and never will be and that the only reason why they get to live in Europe it because of the "charity" of kind Europeans.

Like every year, we allowed about 1.7 million migrants to settle in the EU in 2005, we are *so* evil, we truly deserve to get our throats cut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Europe created a bubble for Muslims to rot under, making them ripe for Islamic fundamentalists.
So no, it may not be all your fault, but you sure as shit aren't all that innocent either.

Yeah, yeah, everything is our fault, i get your point. Well, rejoice, after the bombings in Madrid and London, it is obvious that Muslims will launch even more massive attacks on European soil that will cause the death of thousands of people, you'll get to see many evil Europeans paying for their crimes against Allah.

In related news:
A European priest was murdered by a Muslim in Turkey in the name of Allah, probably because of the Mohammed cartoons, but maybe just because he was European which is reason enough to be murdered anyway (we are infidel pigs you know).

A Iranian newspaper is launching an 'hollocaust caricature contest' in retaliation to the Mohammed caricatures. See? Muslims *can* understand the concept of freedom of expression… as long as it involves making fun of the jews of course.

PowerPuff Grrl · 08-02-2006, 06:56

That's precisely it, Amber.
I'm glad you can finally see light.

nath · 08-02-2006, 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Muslims and other immigrants get constantly discriminated when applying for jobs (NBBR?), Muslims live in the shittiest of living conditions, Muslims have no protection from actual law enforcement but rather from Muslim fundamentalists who have no qualifications whatsoever do that sort of thing at the Government's approval... but it doesn't matter, it isn't a "European" problem.

Just live in France as the majority of Muslim immigrants live, here, and you will be richer than I am.

Sorry to tell you that but your vision of Muslim Immigrant way of life in France (I don't know for other European countries...) is a little a kind of ...."carricature"....

Some Asian people live in France often in worse conditions but they work as crazy, they don't call you as "Racist" just when you ask them how is the weather today and they don't cry in all the newspapers how they are so unhappy and treated as dogs in France.

The problem isn't as you seem to think the colour of the skin...the problem is the MENTALITY....

Some of Muslim immigrants are integrated in the French society and you don't even hear about them in the newspapers....
Some others don't even try to integrate but want to impose their own rules at their host country...
They are often the same who complain and who exploit the society, in knowing perfectly how worse it is in their own country. That's why it becomes unbearable for some French people.

We've had a strong immigration wave of Pollack or Portuguese People in France...but we've never had these kinds of problems with them....

Sorry to tell you that but one of the characteristic of Muslim people is the "strong aggressive attitude" against their host country. A dominant you don't find in Asian or Portuguese or Pollack communities which were immigrants just as them.

They have a kind of inferiority complex that they translate by a strong aggressive attitude.
People are patient but at the end it becomes boring and irritating.

teeny · 08-02-2006, 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

just live in France as the majority of Muslim immigrants live, here, and you will be richer than I am.

It's the same in denmark. Richer than most at least

zelda05 · 08-02-2006, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachel

I'm gay as well as millions of other people in the world, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY...It's not an insult and never should be!

Offtop:
I strongly agree!

Being called gay shouldn't be an insult, but unfortunately we live in a world in which people are easily offended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amber

A Iranian newspaper is launching an 'hollocaust caricature contest'

This is just fucking ridiculous! The media has the responsibility to calm the situation, but apparently they fueling more ill feeling. As we see it, there is no hope that the violence will be subsiding any time soon.

freddie · 08-02-2006, 15:50

Uh-oh. We're straying away from teh topic here. How Muslims live TODAY (whether be good or bad) is still no excuse for them not to stand up for their religion being portrayed in a violent, fanatical way. If they're true believers it's their job to do so.

EDIT: LOL

PowerPuff Grrl · 09-02-2006, 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddie

Uh-oh. We're straying away from teh topic here. How Muslims live TODAY (whether be good or bad) is still no excuse for them not to stand up for their religion being portrayed in a violent, fanatical way. If they're true believers it's their job to do so.

EDIT: LOL

But are they even true believers? Because even the moderate ones get me thinking.

Anyhoo, that link is hilarious, such a pity that the guy lives in Gaza, If he were American he'd be a gazillionaire. You have to admire that kind of capitalist ingenuity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nath

Sorry to tell you that but your vision of Muslim Immigrant way of life in France (I don't know for other European countries...) is a little a kind of ...."carricature"....

Some Asian people live in France often in worse conditions but they work as crazy, they don't call you as "Racist" just when you ask them how is the weather today and they don't cry in all the newspapers how they are so unhappy and treated as dogs in France.

But they should! (Not the racist part, unless it holds some truth)
Just because they are docile doesn't mean they are better citizens. I'm no trying to say that France is the only country that treats its immigrants like shit. To a lesser degree so does the US and Canada but at least the second generation of immigrants have just as many opportunities offered to them as non-immigrant people. Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?
I'm really asking here, because everywhere else in the world (N. America and Australia/NewZealand) its always the second generation immigrants that are well integrated to society. I just can't see why it's the immigrants that are different from all other immigrants and not the host country. I think we have just scratched the surface in this whole issue, if you could tell me or send links that would explain in-depth exactly why Muslim find it sooo hard to integrate into France.

Quote:

Some of Muslim immigrants are integrated in the French society and you don't even hear about them in the newspapers....
Some others don't even try to integrate but want to impose their own rules at their host country...
They are often the same who complain and who exploit the society, in knowing perfectly how worse it is in their own country. That's why it becomes unbearable for some French people.

Trust me, you don't have to explain to me why the French are starting to dislike Muslims. I may not have visited France to experience what you are talking about but I have lived in the Middle East. You haven't seen them in their own society. This would explain my utter indifference to the cartoons and the Australian riots (it takes one brand of stupidity to cancel out the other).
Hell even here in Canada they made some unwarranted grieveances. Two Christmas's ago some conservative Muslims wanted Canadians to stop publically celebrating Christmas. Seriously. They argued that all the decorations displayed throughout cities offended them.
Now keep in mind that:
1) Canadians are not religious whatsoever. Christmas being the one time we celebrate something remotely religious in public.
2) Canadians even took the liberty, before the whole debacle, to wish everybody "Happy Holidays" regardless of religion. This started thirteen years ago, even public schools stopped having Christmas pagaents.
3) Places where Muslims worked always accomodated for Ramadan.

What happened is that with the support of the Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and some Muslim communities (though not most, of course) were all very vocal about how much they appreciated the aesthetics of Christmas, Canadians basically gave a giant Fuck-off to those Muslims. Canada. Canada. Big giant tundra of tolerance, Canada.

I can understand that the tendency Muslims have to command authority they didn't earn gets pretty fucking aggravating. I just don't understand why some people can let that give them license to assume the worse for all Muslims and to a greater extent all immigrants.

Quote:

We've had a strong immigration wave of Pollack or Portuguese People in France...but we've never had these kinds of problems with them...

Though I'm fully aware that Europe has all sorts of schisms between countries, I'm sorry but you can't possibly compare Polish and Portuguese immigrants with Non-European ones. Geographically speaking, you live just two doors down from each other on either end and historically believe in the same faith. I know that these immigrants first experienced some mega-hardships when first living in France but eventually their children were able to exceed. See where I'm getting at here? The second generation of immigrants are supposed to exceed, regardless of where they are from. Why isn't this happening with the Muslims, particularly in Europe (excluding the UK, and possibly Ireland)? Why is it happening in other places but in Europe?

Amber, nath and anybody else who'd like to contribute; I'd love to hear what you guys think.