Discussions on Islam and religion in general

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by fanoff

i said called you gay in an insulting way?i hope you did understand.

THERE IS NO FUCKING INSULTING WAY!!!

I'm gay as well as millions of other people in the world, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY, GAY...It's not an insult and never should be!

Originally Posted by xmad

How did it prove that he is intollerant??
He doesnt seem intollerant.

The fact that he believes that by calling someone gay it's an insult.

[marina]

Originally Posted by rosh

they want better lives, but they want it on their terms.

And their terms are ?
Not hearing the muslim cartoons around or they blow up everything possible ?
No , not everything boils down to the past , at least not so simply . If you give me spare room in your home , if you nurse me when I'm sick , feed me , I have to live by your house rules . You may tolerate my little strange things , like my way of dressing , eating , music , but if I start to insult and threaten you , you have all the rights to kick me out . No matter what your Grand x10 time father did or didn't to my grand10xparents.

[xmad]

Originally Posted by Rachel

The fact that he believes that by calling someone gay it's an insult.

No,it never proves that.
I know what he is trying to say.There are sooooo many people who are not gay and they would be mad if someone called them GAY.

[fanoff]

i dont think its an insult!
WHAT MORE TIME WILL I SAY THAT?
some people may find it needless and expresses it by insulting.
do you like it?(thATs what amber calls freedom of expression,which i have the same opinion with you)
and i dont like how my beliefs are being insulted in the same way!

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by xmad

There are sooooo many people who are not gay and they would be mad if someone called them GAY.

But the point is they fucking shouldn't be!

[xmad]

Originally Posted by Rachel

But the point is they fucking shouldn't be!

If you ask me,well I'd say they shouldnt but the fact is that they dont like it and we can not change it.

[rosh]

Originally Posted by marina

And their terms are ?
Not hearing the muslim cartoons around or they blow up everything possible ?
No , not everything boils down to the past , at least not so simply . If you give me spare room in your home , if you nurse me when I'm sick , feed me , I have to live by your house rules . You may tolerate my little strange things , like my way of dressing , eating , music , but if I start to insult and threaten you , you have all the rights to kick me out . No matter what your Grand x10 time father did or didn't to my grand10xparents.

you quoted part of what i said rather than the entire sentence. at the end i said, but yes integration is key. of course things arent as simplistic as black and white, and my great grandparents stole your greatgrandparents gold or somesuch.

i think countries and cultures and communities need to do more to promote tolerance and awareness of each other. its one good step towards some sort of harmony. when i was at school i had christianity rammed down my throat even though i am not a christian. yet i saw christians and muslims living next door to each other, many of my friends were of different religions and because we grew up in this way, we learned about each others religious beliefs and cultures. friends of mine who were not muslim would ask questions about my religion. this is how i ended up not resenting the constant propaganda and endless scripture classes i had to sit through. i listened and i learned. i ended up learning that muslims and christians [and later on jews] actually had a lot in common. and yes i think im well aware of the differences. but we must also remember that cultural differences will play a huge role regardless of someones religion. my family for example is indian.yet ive never been forced into an arranged marriage since my parents dont believe in arranged marriages. unfortunately for some of my cousins though with more hardline parents, they were forced into arranged marriages.

my parents taught me to respect other peoples beliefs because they have the right their own beliefs and that i should never try to change that.

i think ill get off my soapbox for a bit

[forre]

I understand that Islamic world got offended by a Danish paper. Whos fault is that? The Danish paper editor. One guy who thought it isn't against any laws, except Islamic moral laws and Koran. So, is it a reason to start a global uproar, burning embassies and flags? Those people behave as a bunch of bulls - a crowd of wild prehistoric people. They are told that some one offended their belief and they throw themselves into a crusade. Agaisnt who? What are their demands?

I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreact here, and I'm certainly not kidding.

[xmad]

Originally Posted by forre

I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreacting and certainly not kidding.

Totally agree.that's exactly what I wanted to say.
A question :Isnt all this a really wise game to convience everyone that muslims are ignorant and wild or whatever to make it right to start a war against Iran for its necluear facilities??

[marina]

rosh , I see your point and it's a pleasure to talk to you . In fact it set me thinking that if someone from the *offended part * , some muslim cleric or ...I don't know who else , could say it to the world , to the media : how sick and shallow those cartoons are to the muslim -- there will be more sense! In civilised way.... By doing what they are doing now -- they would never get any sympathy .

[Argos]

Muslims burning Danish flags ( if they are their own property) - freedom of expression.
Saying, that Europe is a cancer - freedom of expression. It's my opinion, too, but for completely different reasons.
Why do you want to deny them their freedom to express their annoyance?

Originally Posted by Amber

Freedom of expression, the right for anyone to express freely their opinion without any fear of persecution, that's the cornerstone of the European civilization...

When I run on the streets and shout "Sieg Heil!" I find myself in jail.
An Austrian member of the Federal Council has a trial, because he said: "It has to be proved, that the Nazis killed 6 mio. Jews."
You don't even have the right to make a fool of yourself, at least in some European countries.
So , what I have to say: One measure for all and everything, or no measure at all!

Finally, yes Olga, you are completely right, except one thing, WW III has already begun!

[haku]

Originally Posted by rosh

i have a few problems with this statement. a lot of these people wouldnt have bothered immigrating had imperialist europeans not taken it upon themselves to invade their countries to rob, rape and pillage

Arabs invaded Europe through the strait of Gibraltar in 711, they quickly occupied the Iberian peninsula and had the intention of conquering the entire European continent, they were fortunately (for us Europeans) defeated in North-Western France at the Battle of Tours in 732, stopping their expansion there.
However, Arabs remained in control of the Iberian peninsula for several centuries and kept launching attacks on European kingdoms until the peninsula was finally fully liberated in 1492.

Ottomans invaded Europe through the strait of Bosporus in 1453 (invasion of Constantinople) and occupied the Balkan region for several centuries until the fall of the Ottoman empire during WWI. Most of the occupied European territories were then freed from the Ottoman occupation except for Constantinople itself and its surroundings which were never given back to Greeks.

I believe that the Arab and Ottoman invasions involved some robbing, raping, and pillaging as well and were not just about distributing flowers to European woman.

And all of that happened before the colonization by Europeans. Historically, it's Muslims who invaded Europe first and presented themselves as mortal enemies of everything the European civillization stands for, and they continue today.

[rosh]

Originally Posted by Amber

And all of that happened before the colonization by Europeans. Historically, it's Muslims who invaded Europe first and presented themselves as mortal enemies of everything the European civillization stands for, and they continue today.

noted, but draw a distinction please. arab muslims, unless you can continue the interesting history lesson and tell me whether indians and africans did the same ? [oh, also, i am not being sarcastic in the least, so please do not take me the wrong way] because [and perhaps you can correct me here too if i am wrong] but i believe that most muslim immigrants to europe tend to come from africa / the indian subcontinent ?

your post quotes what arab muslims did in the name of islam. and thats fine, i should have been more specific that i was thinking of africans and indians/pakistanis/bangladeshis.

i dont believe it makes more sense for each of us to remain in our little pockets of the world and never venture out, and therefore i dont agree with you that people shouldnt be emigrating to europe to use your example. we need to learn about each other. and through knowledge also learn acceptance or at the very least tolerance. yes i know im an idealist.

Originally Posted by marina

rosh , I see your point and it's a pleasure to talk to you . In fact it set me thinking that if someone from the *offended part * , some muslim cleric or ...I don't know who else , could say it to the world , to the media : how sick and shallow those cartoons are to the muslim -- there will be more sense! In civilised way.... By doing what they are doing now -- they would never get any sympathy .

thank you marina. i agree with you completely there. i honestly wish that muslim leaders would get out into a secular place and actually just try to explain why muslims would find these cartoons so offensive. but moreover, explain to their congregations that the countries theyre living in promote certain freedoms and that as much as anyone has to respect someones right to practise the religion of their choice, muslims must respect that there are people who choose to express themselves, even in unsavoury ways.

argos : very valid points too.

[forre]

Originally Posted by Argos

Finally, yes Olga, you are completely right, except one thing, WW III has already begun!

When? I spoke mostly as of a trigger.

This situation is a lot different from everything else that we had before during the past 50 years. There're no victims of unfair attacks. This time it's a religious issue only. Almost no religious twist so far was solved without a war. This time it's not about a certain country either. It already caused a chain reaction through out the world.

[Linda16]

Originally Posted by forre

I fear another thing - it is the beginning of a World War III. I don't exaggerate or overreact here, and I'm certainly not kidding.

I'm afraid that you are right. The opposition and misunderstanding of each other is growing and growing. Even this discussion here is not just a simple "discussion". There is hate in it. And from both sides. It's awful. I'm feeling really sorry for it.

[QueenBee]

The end of the world is obviously near.

[Argos]

Originally Posted by forre

This time it's a religious issue only. Almost no religious twist so far was solved without a war. This time it's not about a certain country either. It already caused a chain reaction through out the world.

Absolutely true. To sum up: A war between our western world and islamic fundamentalism, trying to reconquer the world against the "unmoral" western world, the muslim extremists speak of "Jihad", Bush speaks of "crusade" (later corrected to "war") against Islamic terror. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the numerous terror attack in USA, Europe and touristic centres all around the world, measures to reduce freedom of people in the US to protect the people against the enemy, and a death toll of civilians of much more than 10.000 people, that are all signs of a war, that has already begun.

[forre]

Btw, anyone got hold on those controversial cartoons? Internet is a powerful thing I guess. Time for extremists to burn IBM high quarters and CERN maybe..

For the curious ones

[haku]

Originally Posted by rosh

i believe that most muslim immigrants to europe tend to come from africa / the indian subcontinent ?

Most Muslim immigrants in Europe are Arabs from North Africa and the Middle East, there are also many Turks in Germany, Britain is a notable exception with many immigrants from the Indian subcontinent (for obvious historical reasons) but you won't find many or them anywhere else in Europe.

Originally Posted by forre

For the curious ones

Thanks for the link forre, interesting to see that there has been representation of Mohammed in Persian art, and that caricatures have been there for decades.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_i...p_mohammed.gif
Haha, yeah, i remember that episode of South Park that featured Mohammed and all other religious figures, hillarious stuff (and it caused no riots ).

The one about heaven running out of virgins is pretty good since this is apparently the main goal of suicide bombers, killing a bunch of random westerners sends you directly to heaven and you get 12 virgins.

And i didn't know that Mohammed had a 6 year old bride, no comment.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_i...e/20060204.gif
This one is really good because it shows the hypocrisy of all this.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_i...Legohammed.jpg
Oh damn, Lego is a Danish company, we can expect anti-Lego riots now.

[nath]

Specially for Pat:
Last week, the Lebanon Prime Minister has suggested that as France has a high raise of Muslim persons in its population, it should be logical to include some parts of the Charia in the French constitution....


The director of the french newspaper "France Soir" was fired cause he has published the caricatures.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html
Think I will soon ask for the Swedish Nationality, here...