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USA - General discussion (Part 1)


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Old 11-10-2004, 21:31   #21
luxxi luxxi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
eh, what do you mean 'at least Americans'?

Yes, but not all Americans can vote. There is age threshold when you can vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
Only... and only americans can vote, not even permanent residents of the country
Which makes one wonder why are american elections debated by Swede, Potugese and New Zealander.

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Old 11-10-2004, 21:46   #22
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Originally Posted by luxxi
Which makes one wonder why are american elections debated by Swede, Potugese and New Zealander
WHO is the swede?

If you are talking about me, I am Bulgarian, who has lived in USA for 7.5 years
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Old 11-10-2004, 21:58   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
WHO is the swede?

If you are talking about me, I am Bulgarian, who has lived in USA for 7.5 years
OK, my mistake. So why are American elections debated by Bulgarian, New Zealander and Portugese?

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Old 11-10-2004, 22:14   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxxi
OK, my mistake. So why are American elections debated by Bulgarian, New Zealander and Portugese?
no prob. and why not? why do you debate about the Wars and you are a Slovene? besides you are forgetting a Greek too
and esp about me - why not? I live in the country ... maybe for the next elections I will be still here and will be able to vote
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Old 11-10-2004, 22:19   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
no prob. and why not?
Because that is american internal matter.

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Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
why do you debate about the Wars and you are a Slovene?
Because I study history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
besides you are forgetting a Greek too
I was going fromt he top of my head here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasfcuk
and esp about me - why not? I live in the country ... maybe for the next elections I will be still here and will be able to vote
But I guess not these ones.

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Old 11-10-2004, 22:21   #26
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maybe we all study politics so I guess that makes it ok, eh?
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Old 11-10-2004, 22:48   #27
spyretto spyretto is offline
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oh gosh, I think luxxi is an American muslim voter who's also a EU citizen with Turkish nationality

Relax, my friend, have a glass of wine or something
 
Old 12-10-2004, 03:39   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goku
Second, staringelf, you need to think before you speak. I've seen a few of your previous posts; what you say often makes you look arrogant, and worse, ignorant.
Well, resorting to personal insults, are we? What a fine example for a moderator.

Obviously I am not going to respond in the same way, but I will clarify my position.

Yes, I think Americans are disfunctional when it comes to politics. No matter what you say, the truth is George W. Bush, due to the decisions he made, is responsible for millions of deaths, in the name of false weapons of mass destruction, and in the middle he got lucky and caught Saddam Hussein. All this of course, because he is SUCH a nice man who now only wanted the Iraqui people to have a free land - especially if the 'democratically' elected government can give him more oil than Saddam would. And because he is SUCH a nice man, why doesn't he invade Saudi Arabia where people are tortured if they badmouth the government, women have no rights and people live in repression? Oh, maybe because Saudi Arabia gives him enough oil, so that way people can live opressed, in fear, with few to non-existent rights. The truth is, as long as oil keeps coming in, Bush doesn't care how many people get killed, tortured, humiliatied or have their rights removed. The truth is, Bush prefers that women don't have the right to choose, he would prefer abortion to be ilegal, and by doing so he would be leading to clandestine abortion, where women could die from lack of conditions. I am completely against abortion, but if a woman thinks she should do it, I am not more than her to judge her, especially in the name of God like many do. The truth is, Bush is against gay people and wants to ban them, starting with gay marriages and ending God knows where. Americans may be about to re-elect this man, which proves many Americans are easily manipulated by populist speeches by this politician, which in my opinion shows that many Americans don't take full use of their huge access to information to reflect on how this hedious human being affected America and the World in the past few years, but prefer to be fooled and be the laughing stock (or hated, which is much worse) in the rest of the world. There are societies that have much less access to information are more aware politically and socially and would never allow such a prepotent man to rule their country once, let along twice. So, yes, I am criticizing America regarding their political awareness. Not all America. The America that voted for Bush and is still going to vote for Bush, which I hope is not the majority. I am not anti-American. I have been there and I appreciate many, many things about the American people and culture. I just don't appreciate that many are ruining their country and putting it far away from being "the land of the Free", allowing to become a land ruled by hypocrisy.

The people on the forum who have read more than just "a few" of my posts, know this is my position and know that I am not a xenophobe. If you don't know me, mr. moderator, maybe you should also think before you speak to insult me.

Last edited by Unplugged; 12-10-2004 at 03:52.
 
Old 12-10-2004, 04:11   #29
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goku, I don't think that resorting to personal insults will resolve any of your personal issues and/or political issues in America. On this forum we respect other people's opinions, even if you don't share some of them. Chill. OK?
 
Old 12-10-2004, 06:12   #30
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I wonder how many people will realise we get more oil from Mexico than we do any Middle Eastern Country... At least that's what all the text books and figures i've seen are telling me (up to date).

StaringElf, i don't like Bush, but he didn't make any decisions alone, it's true. And i HATE HATE HATE when people say that "he caused thousands of deaths" because, i'm sorry... my brother served in Iraq and everyone he knew was killed by the Iraqis... it's not him who's technically killing them, My brother was giving children clothes, giving them food, that's what most of the soldiers are doing over there... and yet we're the evil still because of George Bush. I don't think that the war in Iraq is a bad thing... because, if you weigh it all out, should ANYONE be ruled in such a way? Why won't anyone just stand up and go "you know, this isn't right"

I know, should anyone have the right to police the world, i'm not sure... but i think we can all agree that no man in power should all of sudden deside to gas bomb an innocent village of Kurds in the middle of night...


So OK... am i horrible person? I'm american and i support this war. I'm not voting for Bush because of his"born-again-higher-than-though-christian-anti-pro-choice-screw-stem-cell-research" campaign... and well, i'm so sorry our system is messed up, and i wish we could change it. I think we just need to start new, completely new people, new ideas, new idealogy... but i'm afraid it won't happen... It's the one flaw in our system... BUT, i'm sorry... don't act like you know all the answers, NONE of US do, and WE won't know REALLY what's happening over than for a long while, probably when it's over... and who knows how it will be....

i find it funny being criticised for our political awareness, cause i dunno... everywhere i turn i see something political... everyone supports someone and shows it, and no one is afraid to speak their mind. We're pretty aware of our faults, and we DO try to fix them...

:: i'm sure this made no sense, but i'm getting sick of pointing fingers ::
 
Old 12-10-2004, 08:28   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
know, should anyone have the right to police the world, i'm not sure...
In the cases where it can be done in a right and fair way. This was/is definitely not one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
don't act like you know all the answers
Where did I say I know all the answers? Just because I'm against war, intolerance, discrimination and hypocrisy, it doesn't mean I hold all the answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
We're pretty aware of our faults, and we DO try to fix them...
I don't know if you use "we" as in "people like me" or "we" as in "absolutely every American". If it is the 2nd choice, I don't see how anyone would try to fix a country's faults by voting for a dumb hick. And yes, no shit he didn't do the decisions alone, he wouldn't even have the brains to do so, he's weak and greedy.

Your brother served in Iraq, I am very sorry to hear that. He gave clothes to children, that's good, though. And of course you can't expect to invade a country and try to manipulate its culture and then wait for everyone who lives there to say "Oh, thank you so much for bombing us and telling us what to do with our society, you are so welcome here". Obviously there would be resistance. This war wasn't even supported by the UN, for me it is a shame for humanity and a shame for America. And so you get more oil from Mexico? Well but all the oil you can get is good, isn't it? At least for Mr. Bush. There is a certain strategy that is something like this: "We'll do EVERYTHING that we can to become richer", even if it means being a hypocrite, contributing for war - not only deaths, but also a cultural war, and being the country which most pollutes the world just so it can be the one to produce more and get more profit, no respect for nature. I don't agree with this. I don't agree with this blind greed.

I criticize the political awareness because when more than 40% of such a huge nation still sees Bush as "mr. Right" there is clearly something wrong, and some questioning urgently needs to be done.

That is my opinion. Only. I do not hold all the answers. I am not anti-American. And I wouldn't be half worried if America wouldn't be such a powerful nation as it is - I find it sad that such a country thinks it has the right to do whatever it wants and get what it wants at whatever cost, even going against the UN. America is bringing people and cultures even further appart this way, and this is not the brave America that should be, a country that stands for freedom, instead of feeding war, greed and injustice. On Sep 11th I was surprised that such an attack was possible - not only because of the security issues, but because I wouldn't expect so much hate towards America. Now, I would expect it, it wouldn't surprise me, after all the damage and greedy, hypocritical image America has due to its president. Of course I would and will never tolerante any kind of terrorism or hate, but right now it doesn't surprise me anymore, since those people are very traditional and fundamentalist and everything that disturbs their environment, every change, is very hard for them to face. And face it: even if you dislike them, you can't eliminate them, you can't just manipulate their society and tel them what to do and who to be. It can't work that way.

You think the war is a good thing, I respect it, but I could never agree with that. And one thing would be finding it to be necessary for a certain period, another thing is saying it's good. Anyway, I respect it, but I could never agree to something like that, it's disturbing and selfish.

Once again: this is MY opinion. ONLY. There are no absolute truths, especially coming from me. So don't put words in my mouth, please.
 
Old 12-10-2004, 09:21   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
I wonder how many people will realise we get more oil from Mexico than we do any Middle Eastern Country
Bush aimed to own the oil companies, or to help other large organisations own them. The oil doesn't have to go to USA. They can sell it to elsewhere and gain huge profits.

By saying that Bush is evil, people mostly mean that it's the Bush administration that is. Bush is just a Barbie doll that is operated by people who profit from him being the president. Bush chose to listen and act in favor for those people. If he was a patriot or had just a little brain of his own, he would have stepped down or refused to help the companies. Or maybe he can't do that, cuz those companies helped him cheat and win the last election.
 
Old 12-10-2004, 10:41   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
No single country should decide upon the fate of the world according to its own personal interests.
Exactly!! I totally agree. We call ourselves civilised and we should act accordingly.

On November the 2nd, the fate of Siria, Iran and North Korea will be decided. Oh, and the rest of the world's fate as well.
 
Old 12-10-2004, 22:06   #34
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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umm... we never bombed the areas that my brother passed out food...

TRUE STORY... they would be on a convoy to some different town, and they would be driving through nothing but desert all around, and all of a sudden there would be children, abandoned children right smack dab, no adults, no one to take care of them... THAT'S who my brother helped. And when parents would push their children into american trucks, hoping they would stop to avoid hitting them and hopefully crash or just stop so they could ambush the americans... you know. They were told while being there never to harm ANYONE unless they are shooting at you... so, maybe you just don't understand... but being against the war means to completely undermine what my family and country have SACRIFICED... would you all be happy for me to sit and here and cry because i lost my brother over a war you're all against... would his life (and the lives of those already lost) have been for absolutely NOTHING?! ... thanks, thanks SO VERY much for your support

Last edited by thegurgi; 13-10-2004 at 04:55.
 
Old 13-10-2004, 12:35   #35
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It probably hasn't been for nothing. We'll probably get to see the "democratization" of Iraq, eventually... that's always a good thing....can also take Bush's and his administration's logic for granted - that Iraq under Saddam Hussein would have gotten the help to develop weapons of mass destruction and would have posed a serious threat to US's security sometime in the future, etc.etc. That's all there is for now. No connection between Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda has been established as yet.
I think Bush might come up with something more should he decide to invade Iran next year.
 
Old 13-10-2004, 22:50   #36
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I apologize staringelf, I was a little out of line. It came out not the way I meant it to. katebeidar is right as always, your opinion is just as good as anyone elses. This is a forum of tolerance, after all? There is a line though, and as a moderator I need to decide when someone crosses that line and if it needs to be corrected. In this instance, I was looking to see if you were insulting a particular nationality (i.e. Americans are stupid, Russians are ignorant, etc...). We have no need for insults, as we said earlier. This goes for everyone. However, I did misinterpret your intentions, and I'm sorry I came after you. But there had been a history of your posts, that at least I felt were insulting or degrading to people, and I felt the need to speak up. I should not yell or act brashly; rather, mention that people may be offended by what you say, it is always important to be delicate.

As for my opinion on the issue, this is coming from a Russian standpoint. I agree and disagree with what you said. One thing we have to remember is that America is the sole super power in the world. A byproduct of this is jealousy from foreign nations. It is much easier for a less powerful nation to say they could do better, differently, morally, but it hardly turns out that way. I believe that many nations, if given the information accessability of the US, could do a better job with running their country. But if they also recieved power, wealth, hatred, status, etc.. they would crumble. Corruption is present in every country, but it's very hard for new nations with wealth to handle it. I also believe that the American public is manipulated by it's leaders. As is every nation. They are no different from everyone else, who eat propaganda and are lied to every day. And if other countries are such NICE nations, why don't they provide aid to Rwanda, South Africa, the Balkans... The world is reliant upon America to some point. Thats why we're talking about this in the first place. No one debated about the South African presidential elections that took place a few months ago. It's lonley at the top, and vulnerable. However, I feel that the American people, along with any people, have the right to do whatever they please with their country. If they want to elect someone who takes away their freedoms, they should be able to.
 
Old 13-10-2004, 23:19   #37
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Originally Posted by goku
As is every nation. They are no different from everyone else, who eat propaganda and are lied to every day.
Well I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you can speak for your country, but not for every nation.
Want an example? Our prime-minister here in Portugal has been suspected to pressure a very popular political analyst who was mysteriously fired from a TV station. In response to this scandal and huge drop in (what was left of) his popularity, the prime-minister came on TV to say he is going to lower taxes, raise retirement wages and raise public workers. More than 85% of our nation is against him and consider these statements pure propaganda, there are protests everywhere. Because we know our finances will not allow those raises and he will only do that to hide the rotten side of his ruling here. And NO I am not speaking for myself or for my circle of friends, I am talking about an attitude which corresponds the huge majority of people in Portugal right now. So even with such propaganda and raises, people know this man is being a hypocrite and people are demanding for the President of the Republic to set new elections asap. My nation is not manipulated by politics' propaganda.
Want another example? Spain. The 11th March scandal. The PP government blamed ETA for the bombings in Madrid, manipulated TVE (the public broadcasting network) so it would just show reports of how ETA was to blame and not Al-Qaeda, but the people knew something was very strange and badly explained, everybody knew ETA wouldn't operate like that. It was Al-Qaeda, and the spanish government wanted to ignore this, because it meant that Spain was turned into a target of international terrorist by having supported Bush in the war against Iraq, and this few days away from elections would mean a loss for PP, so did they everything they could to manipulate TVE and many newspapers even. It didn't work, the people got united in protest, and after being caught they admitted there was evidence of Al-Qaeda after all and of course lost the elections. Nobody needed to make movies and write books for them to realize their government was lying to them and not explaining what it should explain, they just thought and came to that OBVIOUS conclusion, giving PSOE [the opposite party] its best result in spanish history, in a clear sign of disapproval for the lies of the PP admnistration.
And I have no doubt that our portuguese prime minister will have the same fate, because the ones who take the privileges they have to manipulate the media to serve their propaganda are punished by the people who always have their eyes open.
So don't tell me every nation is manipulated by its leaders and their propaganda. Speak for your country [whatever country it is], don't speak for every nation. It is very unpolite and unconsiderate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goku
There is a line though, and as a moderator I need to decide when someone crosses that line and if it needs to be corrected.
I have already made an official complaint about your little 'decision', we will see if it is right for a moderator to insult an user just because he couldn't interpretate the message in the right way. Cause if it is, then moderators lose all credibility and we all might as well insult everyone just out of the blue everytime we think something is not right or our opinions don't match. If you think me having a different opinion from you is 'crossing the line' and you feel the need to insult me, no wonder it doesn't bother you that Americans plan to vote for such an intolerant man named George W Bush.
 
Old 14-10-2004, 00:34   #38
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Boooo. I come back and all the interesting subjects have been discussed to death without me already. Everything's been said already.

I'd just like to reply to Luxxi about the elections being an USA internal matter. It's all about USA being a super-power and it's great influence it has on the world, not only politicaly and economicaly, but also socialy. The world politics these last few years has been hugely effected by the US as a sole superpower left in the world. So I guess American elections are an interest of all of us. At least as far as the international politicies are concern.
 
Old 14-10-2004, 01:03   #39
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yeah, freddie, I think its just that luxxi seems a bit strict.. and i think he meant its none of non-american business because non-americans CANT vote - so in a way, in a very strict manner, its pointell to discuss it since we cant participate.

But if you ask me, we can discuss anything we want

and dont worry, more is to be said, tonight is the last debate.. .on internal matters ... but how much do you wanna bet its still going to revolve around Iraq and the War
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Old 14-10-2004, 04:42   #40
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lol staringelf, you're just asking for it.. Anyways, I already said it wasn't my intention to insult you, I wanted to warn you. No moderator or admin purposely insults a user; we have other ways of dealing with it. And using your logic, just because you don't agree with me, I am wrong? Maybe I felt insulted by what you said, whether you meant to or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by staringelf
Speak for your country [whatever country it is], don't speak for every nation. It is very unpolite and unconsiderate.
This is how I should've said it. Rather, don't make absurd generalization. As for your point about propaganda, I don't even know where to start. You just seem to be completely ignoring history. Nevertheless, I am done with this discussion. I hope you don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you, or make an enemy.

Back on topic, I see what you are saying coolasfcuk, and luxxi as well. Who the American people choose as their president has a large impact on the rest of the world. But as non-voters technically we don't get to choose what happens. As for the debate tonight, it was President Bush's best one so far. I might even go as far to say as he beat Kerry. Certainly the closest. Now how these debates will imapct the votes will be interesting.
 
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