European Union - General discussion

[spyretto]

what common euro heritage?

[freddie]

Originally Posted by spyretto

what common euro heritage?

Living together on the same part of the continent for millenia, common history & fate of the european people, historic connections via old european monarchies, traditional alliances etc...

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by freddie

Luxxi: Aristotel (might have been Plato as well) said democracy is chaos. I'd tend to agree judging from recent reports that Dutch & French people on average didn't know anything about the content of the constitution. They didn't even know what they were saying no to. It's like turning down a blind date, to get back at one's tyranic father (goverment).

Then perhaps governments should spent a little more time informing their citizens about constitution. I think 90% or more Europeans don't know what constitution is about.

I guess they expected that elites will decide about constitution and people will vote yes because they were told to vote yes.

Originally Posted by freddie

Living together on the same part of the continent for millenia, common history & fate of the european people, historic connections via old european monarchies, traditional alliances etc...

Millenia of fighting, several continent wide wars, nations trying to exterminate other nations....

[freddie]

Originally Posted by luxxi

I guess they expected that elites will decide about constitution and people will vote yes because they were told to vote yes.

Errrr... welcome to the world of politics.

Originally Posted by luxxi

Millenia of fighting, several continent wide wars, nations trying to exterminate other nations....

Yes, yes, thus they needed to ensure stability in the region somehow. Nothing better then unify the whole continent and promise the parties to make money in the process. That's what it was. An economic union couples with disguised political intentions at the begining. Nothing wrong with that.

[fanoff]

Hey!

I've been a member of this forum for more than a month and did believe that most of the members are open to positive ideas,modern and non-politic people,and one day(today)i had a look at the previous threads and when i saw the EU thread i felt lucky to learn what the european members think about our country's long(since 1962) adventure in front of the door of EU.I knew that our participation would be the most topic that has been the most arguments on.I also knew that some members would be against us,but i never thought that those people would say politely that we shouldnt be admitted in the european community.


First,we actually are european country since the period of ottoman empire.at first times there were wars against ottomans,this time these wars are in the tables.

and i cant figure out why some people think we are lack of human rights,political strategies of eu.Once upon a time these ASIAN land couldnt be shared among the most powerful european countries.now since lozan which we got our independence back,these countries still are trying to have opinions to get this country down and to make this country their land.but now this is not invasion,but things and problems like cyprus,kurdish and armenian.you cant say no cos weve known such things about that.we here live with kurds,and i cant figure out why it is being a problem over there,if its a problem,it must be aboutus,cos since 1982,some kurdish illegal organisations are trying to found a kurdish country in the turkish land.we lost many(over 30.000)soldiers over this problem about PKK.and i also cant figure out why western countries refuse to see it.

i wanted to write more but i gotta o to my course,i ll continue my post

[haku]

Originally Posted by fanoff

we actually are european country since the period of ottoman empire.

Turkey is not a European country, Turkey is in Asia and Turkish people are not of Indo-European descent, there's nothing European about Turkey. And the fact that the Ottoman empire tried to conquer Europe and destroy the European civilization certainly does not make Turkey European in any way.

I won't even go into the facts that Turkey is not a democracy, regularly violates human rights, illegally occupies the northern part of Cyprus and won't even recognize the existence of the Cypriot state even though that country is now an EU member state (Which puts us in the ludicrous situation to have a candidate to EU membership that illegally occupies EU territory! This is unacceptable.)
But even if those issues were resolved, it wouldn't change anything to the fact that Turkey is not a European country and should never be allowed to join the EU.

[fanoff]

Originally Posted by Amber

I won't even go into the facts that Turkey is not a democracy, regularly violates human rights, illegally occupies the northern part of Cyprus

ouuuuuuuuch!how come you say that we occupie the north cyprus?and how come you say that we dont have democracy?have you ever been to here?i dont think so,if you once came to here you would see how nonsense your thoughts(not opinions)are.i can say without any doubt that turkey is in europe(even though we werent admitted in the EU),has a total democracy since Mustafa Kemal Atatürk(have you heard of that man?i dont think you ever heard of him,if you ever did for just one time and tried to know what he did in turkey,you would see how much youre saluting Turkish people)

but anyway,we(i mean turkish people) arent so willing to enter your christian club but will always try to better than what we are now.If some of us want so,it would not be because of economical profits or something like you told in your previous posts,,it would be becaouse of improving theirselves.and you(i mean people like you)dont want to accept the reality that your fathers did in the 15th century and make up stories like so-called armenian genocide(yea,thats what we call it),which makes us just laugh.

[haku]

Originally Posted by fanoff

how come you say that we occupie the north cyprus?

Because you do, Turkish troups have invaded Cyprus in 1974 and still occupies the Northen part of the island. The invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus has been declared illegal by the UN and Turkey has been repeatedly asked to withdraw its troups.

Originally Posted by fanoff

how come you say that we dont have democracy?

Because Turkey is a long way from being a democracy.

Originally Posted by fanoff

i can say without any doubt that turkey is in europe

Turkey is NOT in Europe, Turkey is in Asia, you can try to redefine geography all you want to fit your political agenda, it won't change the fact that Turkey is in Asia Minor.

Originally Posted by fanoff

has a total democracy since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

Wow, you really think that Turkey has been a 'total democracy' since the 1920s? That's really sad because it shows that you have no idea of what is required for a country to be considered a democracy. For example the Turkish republic was a single-party regime for decades, single-party means by definition no democracy, and that's only one of the criteria.

Originally Posted by fanoff

make up stories like so-called armenian genocide(yea,thats what we call it),which makes us just laugh.

I'm not surprised that the Armenian genocide makes Turkish people laugh.
The Armenian genocide is not 'made-up', between 1 and 1.5 million Armenians died, all historians (except Turkish ones of course) agree on that and it's certainly not a laughing matter.

Anyway, i see that Turlkish propanganda is still fully working on its own people, from 'we did not invade Cyprus' to 'there has never been an Armenian genocide'… denial, denial, denial.

[Argos]

The EU is no democracy either. I do not see much ways for European people to fight laws which are somehow spit out in Brussels neglecting the consequences of concerned people.
The EU does nothing to give minorities (smaller states and provinces) equal rights. They have to accept, what Brits, French and German have played out in their private cardgames.
And this all since the foundation of this club, I do not think that Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are on the wrong way not trying to become a member of this crazy institution. Turkey is for years the much better democracy, even if they have a long way to fix their many problems.

[fanoff]

are you from france?then you might know that all french historians have decided to suggested to go back from a mistake not to accept the lie.

let me tell you the truth,when russia opened a war against turks,armenians sided for them(once upon a time when turks opened a war against the byzantine,they sided for turks)and started to take action against turkish people(i mean raping women,killing the old and children,not so big,huh?)then the german commander told the ottoman government to get armenians a safer place.then the famous law has been realesed(can be discussed if its right or wrong).then armenians were about 1.620.000 people.then they started to leave their places and there were sickness,war and kurds that has been fighting against eachother then in 1918 they came back to their home.there were losts for armenians but not soooooooooo big like they tell now.true historians(not populist ones,like justin mccarthy)say that its about 500-600 thousand.and if you had known the meaning for genocide,which has been defined after the WW2,you would have seen that its not a genocide.but you seem not to know it.Then if youre from france and follow the media,you would see news that 19 french(not turkish) historians have founded a group with the slogan freedom for history and wanted the government to remove the laws about armenian genocide(like you say)

Originally Posted by Amber

it's certainly not a laughing matter.

i agree with that,but making up fake documents are making them so unfair and laughable

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by fanoff

ouuuuuuuuch!how come you say that we occupie the north cyprus

You don't? Let me make a guess about that: You "protected" it by invading it to not end up being occupied by Greece, did you?
And if the Armenian genocide wasn't a genocide what was it then? What term would you use for what happened? Massacre?
Not to say Turkey is not a democracy and stuff but being a bit commonsensical would really do the trick. If you think that the EU is no good then why struggle to be part of it? Turkey has enough conflicting influences and interests on its own to stay independent.

[freddie]

Armenian genocide is a FACT. Saying it wasn't is just as ridiculous as the current president of Iran claiming that holocaust was a myth. You can't argue factual evidence which is supporded by mass majority of experts everywhere. If anyone can be pronounced as populist it's those who claim that it wasn't a genocide. Claiming this is also supporting a daft notion that the whole world somehow conspired against Turkey, making it look bad in the eyes of the international community. Plausable? I should think not.

That being said I do think that Turkey (in reasonable time) should be granted entrance into the EU. Yeah, there are still some human rights issues and their democracy certainly isn't perfect... but lets not forget that the foundations of the EU stem from economic factors at the core... and I don't see any reasons why Turkey would somehow failed to contribute to the economic growth of the entire continent. It's just economic reality - we NEED Turkey. It's still just business with it all comes down to it.

And since many people stumble upon Turkey's loose democracy - lets not forget that EU's "democracy" is still a very formal entity. It works de iure, but not de facto. We all know that that despite equality of every EU member in reality big countries have informal means of "persuading" smaller, less significant ones to turn their way in certain political issues. No one knows that better then us - new member countries. So I think we should rather fix our own shortcomings before criticizing potential future members, in order not to sound hypocritical.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by freddie

It's just economic reality - we NEED Turkey. It's still just business with it all comes down to it.

Well, it's sad if they can look past the human rights issues for business.

[freddie]

We all look past human rights issues on a personal level while buying cheap junk Made In China, ignoring the fact an average Chinaman works in a factory exposed to impossible conditions 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for $100 a week, thus enabling us to buy stuff cheap. Money makes the world go around. It's sad, but it's also a reality.

[haku]

Originally Posted by freddie

but lets not forget that the foundations of the EU stem from economic factors at the core... and I don't see any reasons why Turkey would somehow failed to contribute to the economic growth of the entire continent. It's just economic reality - we NEED Turkey. It's still just business with it all comes down to it.

I totally disagree that the foundation of the EU is purely based on economics, the reasons were as political as they were economic. The European project was created by French and German politicians and the core reason was to find a way to prevent a new war between the 2 countries, there had been 3 devastating wars in 70 years between France and Germany, and they wanted to put an end to this on-going conflict. So yes, the EEC was an economic association, but it also had an important political side with the European parliament and the executive commission which together create and vote laws on a European level. The EEC was (and still is) the only international organization that requires major transfers of sovereignty to a central body. No other economic association in the world has a central parliament, a central executive, a central bank, and a central court of justice, the EU as it stands today is much closer to a confederation than to a simple economic association.

Anyway, my opposition to Turkey is based on the fact that Turkey is not a European country, even if Turkey was the greatest democracy and the richest country in the world, i would still be opposed to its membership. Actually, if the EU was solely a free trade association (like the EFTA), i wouldn't mind Turkey's admission, but the EU is much more than that, i don't want Turkish MPs in the EU parliament pushing conservative laws that we will all have to follow, i don't want my tax money to fund Turkey's development, i find ridiculous and extremely dangerous the idea that the most powerful, most populated EU member (and therefore the member with the most MPs in the EU parliament) would be a *non*-European country, this would be a tremendous threat to European freedom and values.

Originally Posted by freddie

We all know that that despite equality of every EU member in reality big countries have informal means of "persuading" smaller, less significant ones to turn their way in certain political issues. No one knows that better then us - new member countries.

EU members are equal, but that equality is moderated by their respective populations. It is obvious that Germany with 80 million people has more weight than Luxembourg with 500,000 people, you can't expect all EU members to have a value of '1' in the decision making, how would we explain to 80 million people that their votes are equal to the votes of half a million elsewhere? Where would be the democracy in that? Democracy can't be only about a majority of EU members, it has to take into account the populations they represent, otherwise we could end up with a situation where a majority of EU members representing a small minority of the EU population could impose a decision on a large majority of the population even if they were against it.

[freddie]

To be more precise European Coal and Steel Community and then eventually European Economic Community was largely created with a purpose of making money. Even the name tells a story. Of course there were other positive side-effects of this - mainly preventing Germans from reeking havoc upon the Earth again. But there were other measures taken to literaly castrate german war machinery in that respect - the only reason why this was named as one of the reasons for establishing EU was paranoia of some specific nations that post WW1 scenario might repeat itself. Imo... it couldn't, anyway. But make no mistake. Money always was and always will be the main motivation in this and ANY international community. Regional peace and stability? Sure. But first you need money and economic stability to achieve it.

I don't get what exactly a "European country" means. What is the criteria to achieve that? Cultural? Regional? Historic? Religious? For instance Russian territory extends through a vast part of Asia, yet it's culture is recognizably European. So as far as the territory's concerned Russia's more Asian than European for instance. If it's a religious and cultural criteria you're targeting then for instance Bosnia which is predominately muslim would never be accepted as well. Either way you look at it, it's a very elitist viewpoint.

And regarding Euro equality... I was talking about the EU comission. Every country has (or at least had till now) one member in it... EU commision is the one proposing laws and writing basic outlines for new legislature. Does that stop the wealthiest (yes, the wealthiest, not the biggest... otherwise Poland would have a huge say in these "informal agreements" that are happening in EU policies every day) countries from literaly manipulating other "lesser" nations, when it comes to their own self interests.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by Amber

Anyway, my opposition to Turkey is based on the fact that Turkey is not a European country, even if Turkey was the greatest democracy and the richest country in the world, i would still be opposed to its membership. Actually, if the EU was solely a free trade association (like the EFTA), i wouldn't mind Turkey's admission, but the EU is much more than that, i don't want Turkish MPs in the EU parliament pushing conservative laws that we will all have to follow, i don't want my tax money to fund Turkey's development, i find ridiculous and extremely dangerous the idea that the most powerful, most populated EU member (and therefore the member with the most MPs in the EU parliament) would be a *non*-European country, this would be a tremendous threat to European freedom and values.
.

That is of course only partly true. The bit of Turkey that is in one side of the Bosphorus and which divides Europe with Asia is historically European, and used to be the centre of the Byzantine. Then again, Istanbul is a pretty much cosmopolitan - may I say European metropolis today. The question is about the rest of Turkey; but frankly, you'll have to add the whole Anatolia as part of Europe too, as it borders in the Mediterranean and it has been historically part of Europe where Greek city states prospered ( Ephesus, Pergamos, Smirni etc ).
Turkey has come a long way from being a muslim fundamentalist state; there's clear separation between church and state, and they have their noses towards the West, in both Europe and America, rather than to the East. The question is with regards to the Asian portion of Turkey - and it is a very big part indeed.
Ok, they had their vices before, siding with the Germans and all but that doesn't count for anything. We're talking about modern Turkey here - and the modern Turkey too has European roots. Unless of course you consider as Europe only your middle Western European buddies, the Germans, Austrians, Belgians etc.
Why don't you just admit that you're a bit scared of them overpopulating your country - as it stands you have enough problems with the Arabs and the Africans there and their rather dubious equal rights. Oh wait...those are not Europeans either, are they?

My opinion is that admitting Turkey into the EU might actually be a good thing and might even bring about prosperity and stability in the whole region, also make the EU extremely powerful economically. But there are a LOT of issues to be discussed until that can become a possibility.

[haku]

Originally Posted by freddie

I don't get what exactly a "European country" means.

Since when has it become so hard to define what a European country is? Iceland is European, Saudi Arabia is not, do i really need to explain why? A European country is a country on the European continent with a Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Slavic, or Greek culture (and yes, i know that Hungary, Estonia, and Finland are Finno-Hugric, but those countries are embedded in Europe and are now clearly part of the European culture).
Turkey belongs to a totally different civilization, it is already difficult enough to make the EU work with countries that share a common cultural background without adding a totally alien country to the mix.

Originally Posted by spyretto

Why don't you just admit that you're a bit scared of them overpopulating your country

I don't really think that many Turks will immigrate to France, but i do have a big problem with Turkey becoming the most powerful and populated EU member, i have a big problem with Turkey having the most seats at the EU parliament and having the most weight at the EU commission. Turkey is an extremely conservative country and with its demographic weight, it would unbalance Europe in favor of extremely conservative views, it's a serious threat to European values and liberal approach to moral issues.
It will certainly be a sweet revenge for Turks to see that after the failure of the Ottoman empire to conquer Europe, they managed to do it through our own institutions.

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by Amber

I don't really think that many Turks will immigrate to France, but i do have a big problem with Turkey becoming the most powerful and populated EU member, i have a big problem with Turkey having the most seats at the EU parliament and having the most weight at the EU commission. Turkey is an extremely conservative country and with its demographic weight, it would unbalance Europe in favor of extremely conservative views, it's a serious threat to European values and liberal approach to moral issues.
It will certainly be a sweet revenge for Turks to see that after the failure of the Ottoman empire to conquer Europe, they managed to do it through our own institutions.

You make it sound overdramatic. How exactly will they unbalance a European Union of over 25+ member states? let alone when the EU's parliament can hardly bear any significant weight onto how each member run its business fundamentally. All they can do I suppose would be to veto some decisions - well the Brits are doing that all the time and it didn't really crumble the unity of the EU did it. And I doubt very much that Turkey would like to do that anyway, being a developing country; so they'd put their economic development above such matters. Moral issues shouldn't even come into question at all, as those will have to be clearly defined before Turkey joins the EU in the first place. Can you tell me a moral issue that the EU has tackled, decided upon and imposed over its states lately? It's all theoretical and inasfar as the sovereignty that each state has handed over is a far cry from touching the fabrics of the mechanisms by which each member state operates, there's not even an issue about that. On the contrary, Turkey will have to align its own laws to be in par with the European ones, which means they're going to improve themselves considerably.
As about Europe being strictly defined by those races that you mention, well, I'm sorry, these are clearly NOT all the races that occupy the land known as Europe. It's also irrelevant whether the Turks belong to the European races; as long as they occupy a part of what is considered the European continent they're European. By the same analogy, we should just deport all those European citizens who do not comply with your definition of European races. How about the EU citizens who are Indians, Arabs or Chinese, what about those?

[freddie]

Exactly. Amber that definition you made of a Euro country - that's YOUR definition. We don't have to be limited by political, religious, territorial or any other kind of boundaries. And it's common sense as well that Turkey IS historicaly inevitably connected to European past. It's not like we're accepting Syria or Lebanon. What if Israel would want to join once as an European enclave? It would make sense since the country was founded on jewish immigrants as a direct result of holocaust. What would we say to them in that case?? They're not European enough? Semitic nations have no place inside the EU? That'd be boderline nazi. But it would have to be said, since same standards would apply to Turkey.
And regarding Turkey becoming the most influecial member: first of all - like I sad, the most influencial country is the one that's the wealthiest. If population would make a crucial difference in the realms of EU politics then Poland with the population of 60 million would be 10 times more influencial than Slovenia with 2 million. And it's not. Yeah Turkey will have a lot of seats in the parliament, but since when was that crucial? EU parliament has extremely limited powers, while the comission has a rotary system anyway so no fear the "evil empire" will take over the legislation.