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Hurricane Katrina


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Old 03-09-2005, 23:02   #41
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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No Freddie, some people said or implied "we" as in the people who live in the US, got what we deserved, all we have contributed is pollution, yes? And, this is a common sentiment, not just on here. But I have found on here that many people think they are so righteous. I simply don't know where they get off.

As for you, well, I was disappointed. Maybe you had no intentions behind your words that were towards policy or malicious, and I believe that is probably true, you are a good person. However, you were one of the first to post and helped to set the tone (whether accidental or not) for this thread, and then proceeded not to argue with the hateful things people posted after you. Not your job to jump on people, you are not forum moral police, lol, but it still bothered me that it didn't bother you enough to stand up and say something.

And, just to argue your thinking, Mitja. On one hand you say that this country is messed up (not your words, I know) and on the other you say that we can take care of ourselves. How does that match? You think we are fucked, but capable? You say we don't know our butt from our face, but we can mobilize and help these people? It's been how many days, and people are being locked in the stadium? People are dying of heat and starvation in this country you think can take care of itself? Maybe you think too much of us while hating (yes a strong word, sorry my vocab is limited at the moment) us? It is funny... don't you think?

And I am sorry everyone. You can hide behind your innocence and words, but let's be honest. If this were another country and people were poor or made dumb decisions to stay, the reaction would be different. It is because it is the US, and the people HERE made stupid or helpless decisions. You cannot tell me that this country is the only country with warning systems and weather channels. You cannot tell me that other countries haven't had losses in natural disasters. Don’t hide behind technicalities. I can't put it into words, but there is something there that no one wants to face. Like prejudice, you use other excuses. It is like a racist saying, ‘now now, I'm not racist, I don't hate black people, I just don't want them moving in my neighborhood, because I don't like their music and clothes. ’

EDIT; and you do realize there were people taking advantage of the tsunami to sell children to slave rings, right?

Edit2: People were told to go to the super dome, that they would be safe there. Has anyone lives through a level 4 hurricane? Do you know what it is like? So, you know it will probably flood, it has flooded before, you just went upstairs, held on tight. I think it is clear that no one knew, truly knew, how bad it was going to be. Even with the warning. There have been warnings before. Let's give you a senario. You are sitting in your home, watching the news. SUddenly an alert comes up saying, a big hurrican is probably on its way. You look at the tv an go, hmm. Another hurricane, damn I hate what that does to the weather. You go back to your computer, or let's make you lower class poverty, you can back to your dirty chair, the only one you have, and btw, you are lucky you have a tv and cable to see the weather channel. A few more hours pass and the news is getting more insistent. Hmm, maybe this is a big hurricane. I'm scared. You start to box your few things up nd head up to the attic. It takes hours, but you think you've secured more things. You sit back to watch the news some more. It's getting closer now. Your kids are scared. You think about getting out...should I? You check your bank account, $50. That was going to pay for groceries. It may pay for a bus...for your kids too? (btw, airports were closed, buses stopped running, it was taking seven hours for people lucky enough to have cars to get out) What if this storm passes? What if I just spent my last few dollars for nothing, now Ihave no money for food and now I am in another city, where I don't know anyone and don't have the money for a hotel. What do I do with my kids. Well...I'll go to the super dome, take them there, we'll walk across town to there. They say it will be safe. The storm hits, everything you owned is destroyed, but you huddle together with your family at the dome...days have passed, you have no air, no food, no water. They said I'd be safe here.

Maybe they should have known better. It is their fault they were in this situation. Why didn't they get out? Those are great questions after the fact. But it is just that, after the fact.
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Have I effectively killed this thread?

Last edited by Bitty2002; 04-09-2005 at 00:13.
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Old 04-09-2005, 00:51   #42
simon simon is offline
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Why do people hate the United States so much? It has many faults, but it hasn't given the world "nothing but pollution and death". It gave the modern world the idea of representative democracy, which probably would otherwise have died out after the failure of the French Revolution. It saved Europe from German domination in World War I, from Nazi tyranny in World War II and Soviet tyranny in the Cold War. America has often failed to live up to its own ideals, not least in that it didn't extend democracy to blacks in the Southern states until 1965, but it least it has ideals.

1.3 million people lived in the New Orleans metroplitan area, 600,000 of them in New Orleans itself. It's estimated that about 100,000 people didn't evacuate, nearly all of them in New Orleans itself (other parts of the metropolitan area have been fllooded, but the population had left). The reason, as Bitty2002 explained, was that they couldn't. Evacuation was possible for people with cars, but not for those without. There wasn't anything like enough public transport provided for the over 100,000 people without access to cars.

New Orleans is one of the least wealthy cities in the US. 63% of the population was black. The people who got left behind were mostly the poorest and well over 90% black. Other groups that got left behind were the very old, the disabled, the ill and tourists.

I don't think people should have lived in New Orleans, it was a disaster waiting to happen, but I'm not going to blame them for doing so. As Bitty2002 said, people don't choose where they get born.

When the evacuation order was given, Katrina was a category 5 hurricane headed straight for New Orleans. It was estimated that 50,000 people would die because a direct hit by a category 5 would have destroyed nearly all the buildings and caused the levees to fail catastrophically, flooding the city in minutes. I have to say that anyone who remained in their home and if they couldn't leave the city didn't try to go to the Superdome or the Convention Center was either hopelessly ill-informed or stupid. At the last minute, a wind diverted the centre of the hurricane to Gulfport and weakened it to a category 4. (As it happens, the roof of the Superdome nearly came off, so it wasn't as safe as thought - if a category 5 had hit, it would have come off and casualties in New Orleans would have been well above 50,000.)

The people who have suffered most are those at the bottom of American society. It's quite true that a lot of criminals took advantage of the breakdown of law to loot, rape and murder. But saying that the victims don't deserve help because a relatively small number have behaved in that way is appalling. A lot of people are at the bottom of society just because of their race and circumstances. They are the victims of the criminals. Blaming the victim is a common psychological reaction, but it's not fair.

Unfortunately that does seem to have been the attitude of the authorities. The US is normally fairly efficient at dealing with disasters, so it's incredible that it took 5 days to send food and water to the people at the Superdome and the Convention Center. It's also incredible that 1500 people were plucked from rooftops by helicopters, but then abandoned in a field with no food, no water and no shelter. Over a hundred of them have died. The state and federal authorities have both been extremely negligent. It's clear that Louisiana didn't have a plan for how to deal with this predictable emergency and didn't care to improvise one afterwards. It's also clear that the director of the Federal Emergency Management Administration and President Bush were extremely complacent, saying that everything was being done when in fact very little was being done.

Last edited by simon; 04-09-2005 at 01:11.
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Old 04-09-2005, 01:24   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
Why do people hate the United States so much?
While I can say I don't hate the States at all, I do look at them with a very cynical eye. You can blame it on my country's president having his head firmly embeded up Bush's ass. Mexico has been under the thumb of USA's leaders since before I was born, while it could be a perfectly self sufficient country were it not just south of the States.

I strongly wish for all the people who lost it all, from white to black people, from rich to poor, from young to old, to recover and be relocated happily to another state. I however, have my own country's constant disasters and need for help to worry about. I don't think anybody from America (or anywhere else) gave a shit that the VERY SAME storm that did this to NO, along with two more tropical storms, have been wrecking total havok on Mexico. There's complete towns gone to hell down here, towns with an equivalent index of poverty and the same amount of indigenous population (as compared to black population) NO had. These people have no National Guard to relocate them, hell, most of them don't even have the means of communication to be warned about an oncoming flood.

You don't hear about them in the news because it's not important to anyone. Figures, people all over the world die of hunger, of disease, of natural disasters, and the States "come over and make it all okay" (MY SKINNY WHITE SLAVIC RUMP, they do). But the States get hit by ONE of these totally unexpected natural disasters, a town is gone, and the rest of the world is a villain for refusing to cooperate. What does it take for people to realize that we don't hate Americans, but what the "great American nation" does to our countries in exchange for help that most of the time rarely gets there anyway?

Sob. Whine. End of story. If you're gonna cooperate, cooperate, if you're not gonna, then don't. People died and people have lost it all, show some sympathy regardless of their goddamn nationality.
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Old 04-09-2005, 02:05   #44
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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Darje - You are missing a huge point. There is a double/reverse prejudice here. You speak as if the US people are spouting off demanding help, then turning their back to other tragedy. I personally haven't spouted off demanding help. Help who you want. However, when someone says, good riddance, or they got what they deserved, that is different than simply not reacting or not helping.

What you are saying is the mentality that only hurts humanity. If I am being dragged down, I will drag you down with me. Or because my country gets neglected, your country should get neglected. What is happening in Mexico and around the world is HORRIBLE. But that doesn't mean that what happened here wasn't horrible.

You know, the country that brought tears to my eyes yesterday? Sri Lanka offerred help. Those that were still trying to recover from their own enormous disaster, put out a helping hand. Why can't life be more like that everywhere? Why can't sympathies go out to everyone, to any pain equally. Believe, Darje, I do understand what you are saying. I HATE when american news reports a bombing in another country saying, 100 people died, 2 were American. As if those two are somehow more important. Believe me, I understand. But it doesn't make it right to want suffering to be equal. That just because this doesn't happen everyday, that tragedies here aren't worth the pain people feel, or worth helping.

But you know... maybe one day terrorists will bomb the US, or nuclear war will break out, or a dumbass president will destroy our economy, or a sly little Hitler will work his way into our government and bring the US down. Then everyone will be happy that we are suffering. Maybe we can have more tragedies and the countries we have estranged and made bitter will turn their backs on us, and we wallow in pain, our cries unheard, like the cries in Mexico go unheard, etc. Our pain will be like your pain and everyone will be at peace that at least the pain is equal. While that scares me, and I would hate to lose all the nice luxuries and freedoms I have been afforded in this life for being lucky enough to be born here...at least it will make other people happier. At least it will make the bitterness go away. Maybe some day...we only have to wait. I am sure US won't be on top forever. I've heard China's working its way up. But, then again, it would be nice if no one was on top, but that is how the world seems to work. Maybe China or other will do a better job, have better ideals, provide better philosophies, forms of government and economy. Maybe someday life will be better.

Last edited by Bitty2002; 04-09-2005 at 02:18.
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Old 04-09-2005, 02:11   #45
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I'm not happy there's people suffering, Bitty. A great many of my friends live in the States, and I'm not happy that they're unhappy with their economy as well. My point was more about having people stop complaining that since they don't support the way the US have behaved, they also don't care about the suffering of people. It's horrible when an event of this magnitude becomes a wah-fest.
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Old 04-09-2005, 03:16   #46
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although i think its a little heartless that so many people wouldnt open their wallets. i honestly dont blame them. people knew that the levee's were shit and they knew that where they were living was very dangerous, why didn't anyone do anything? i think we all know the answer to that.

all im saying is, if there was an 8.0 earhquake here in SF [which is bound to happen VERY soon] i would like to think that there are people out there willing to help. so i gave in my weeks paycheck. its not much, but i know it'll help someone out.

right now tho, all of my anger is directed at the gov [once again ] everyone was so up there ass in Homeland Security that they cut funding for FEMA [Federal Emergency Management Agency] or actually completely dispersed of it to make room for all the Homeland Security shit that we just had to have. so with BILLIONS spent on Homeland Security, why did it take so damn long for gov. help? because all the help [national guard] is in iraq. *sigh* if there is anyone to chastise in this case,it is george bush and his administration.


about kanye west. i agree with him. if you see the news right now, all the people that they show still stranded are mostly black people. guess who's taking up the hospital and shelter space? its sad really.

another thing that is pissing me off lately are all the stupid telethons by all the celebrities. why waste the time on a telethon when all of these stupid celebrities could just donate 5% of their income. IDIOTS!
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Old 04-09-2005, 03:28   #47
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The hell?

I don't think Americans are crying to the world to pay attention to this. In fact, I heard George Bush say no to over 20 countries offering help, of course, God forbid Bush shows weakness. News stations aren't having people from other countries giving their condolenses, Americans couldn't a give a shit what other people have to say right now, and rightfully so.
But turning on the tv all I hear from Americans is "why haven't our Gov't responded quickly." Is it wrong for Americans to care about their own people? Just because they don't normally care about others they shouldn't care whatsoever about their own?

It is one thing for the gov't to warn people to evacuate the city, but to offer no means to actually leave for the people most vulnerable is genuinely despicable. When asked why he couldn't leave in time a man said that he tried but all of the rental car agenies were out of service,and the airports were closed. Considering practically 100,000 people in NO have no cars the gov't pretty much abandoned them.

As much as I hate Kanye West for being a self centred, lattern shaped head asswipe I totally agree with his comments. Aside from being from the US totally being unprepared, the media's disproportionate amount of coverage of looting is disgusting. When people haven't eaten in five days and there is no clue of help coming in, taking food from grocery stores is NOT LOOTING. When you have been waiting patiently for five days without food or water sitting on your roof, signalling helicopters with flags only to find ever single one pass on over you shooting up in the air and not at the helicopters to get the pilot's attention does not mean you're a sniper shooter, it means you are fucking desparate. No helicopter was shot down.

I just hope to God that this will be the shit that will bring down the Republican party's support in the South... oh, who am I kidding?
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Old 04-09-2005, 03:48   #48
dare2dream28 dare2dream28 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kishkash
Ur statement i find funny about iraq. U don't think that coz america caused all the grief there they shouldn't stick around there sorting things out instead of just abandoning their responsibilities to help people that they can't help ANYWAY coz of snipers and looting?
Oh I totally believe that if we cause shit, we need to clean it up. I'm just mad that we caused it. LOL However, regardless of what people say, there were reasons behind Saddam's capture, even if we don't know the whole truth behind it (and NO I am not 100% supporting Bush! For the love of pete, I don't like that man!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Cream
You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.
Oh come on now, that's a little much. You have to admit that America has done at least some good for other countries by donating lots and lots of money, food, etc. We're not all bad.

But I totally agree with you Ice_Cream when you say the people should have moved...they knew I think 3 days in advance. They should have started walking. And no, they're not helping themselves by acting like animals. I totally agree.

Anyways, thanks everyone for your regards to my uncle. Thankfully, we heard from him today. He made it on a bus to San Antonio, Texas. He lost everything, but at least he's alive.
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Old 04-09-2005, 04:16   #49
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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I hope everyone knows I am not thinking people should open their wallets. I just don't think hateful people should open their mouths. Just wanted to make that clear.

And just to defend celebrities a bit. I think they could give more. But a lot of celebrities do give 5% of their income to things like this. They also give their time and fame to make that amount even higher. But yes, there are plenty of famous people out there that don't give a cent.

PowerPuff_Grrl -
Quote:
I heard George Bush say no to over 20 countries offering help
Just to say...they haven't, unless it was in the last few minutes, rejected any offers of help. They haven't accepted them yet either. At the moment, while inept, I think we have things covered. I think, at the moment, it is more of an issue of what help will with need and what we will be able to use, and it will probably be used at that time. Does that make sense? Believe me, I certainly hope it is not pride.

And I do think America cares about other countries. Maybe their ideologies and methods are to be abhorred and uninvited, but I think the intention is often good.

And the whole Iraq situation shouldn't be AT ALL related to this tragedy. And those who like to belabor that, over and over, what do you want? I hate it too. But you have two options, shit and shit. No one else was helping the people of Iraq. Let the corruption continue? Maybe we aren't making it a land of greatness and freedom, but what was the alternative, truly? Talk about a rock and a hard place. Either way, the situation is shit. Maybe these countries that have better ideologies and methods should have stepped in a long time ago.

And not everyone in New Orleans is acting like animals. Some stupid f***kers that should be shot are. Don't lump all the victims into one group of animals.

And Ice_Cream, I didn't want to respond to you, but every time I read your hateful words...I cannot believe my eyes. I have to say your comment was the shittiest of them all. Governments suck and are corrupt, you don't have to be. What has your country given to the world? Does Europe not pollute and bring death? Do Europeans not have corruption in government? Do they not have prejudices, high ideals that fall short? So we have SUV's, which I think should be banned, and Europeans drive beaters that don't have up-to-date emission standards. Are you really so perfectly righteous as to think you don't bring pollution and death to this world? You know, all countries bring pollution and death because all countries are run by humans--the ultimate parasite. So really, if your reasoning stands, no humans should be helped, no disasters aided, because all disaster is deserved because all humans bring death and pollution. So, is that the way you propose we live? Who says what you said in the face of so much death? I am appalled. Shame on you. You should examine yourself
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Old 04-09-2005, 04:42   #50
madeldoe madeldoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002

And the whole Iraq situation shouldn't be AT ALL related to this tragedy. And those who like to belabor that, over and over, what do you want? I hate it too. But you have two options, shit and shit. No one else was helping the people of Iraq. Let the corruption continue? Maybe we aren't making it a land of greatness and freedom, but what was the alternative, truly? Talk about a rock and a hard place. Either way, the situation is shit. Maybe these countries that have ideologies and methods should have stepped in a long time ago.

i think it is alot related to this situation because all the money thats gone to the so called "War in Terror" and Homeland Security could have gone to FEMA, which once was a powerful independent agency focused solely on responding to earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters. The Department of Homeland Security sends $1.1 billion each year to states to combat terrorism, but just $180 million to help prepare for disasters such as Katrina. Imagine what that money could do now?

"There are no emergency managers at any level in the Department of Homeland Security. It's all law enforcement," said George Haddow, former FEMA deputy chief of staff. "It doesn't look like anyone's in charge to me because the system has been deconstructed."
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Old 04-09-2005, 06:09   #51
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madeldoe
i think it is alot related to this situation because all the money thats gone to the so called "War in Terror" and Homeland Security could have gone to FEMA, which once was a powerful independent agency focused solely on responding to earthquakes, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters. The Department of Homeland Security sends $1.1 billion each year to states to combat terrorism, but just $180 million to help prepare for disasters such as Katrina. Imagine what that money could do now?

"There are no emergency managers at any level in the Department of Homeland Security. It's all law enforcement," said George Haddow, former FEMA deputy chief of staff. "It doesn't look like anyone's in charge to me because the system has been deconstructed."

Hindsight is 20/20. I don't support this stupid ass war. I hate Bush. The government should have done a lot of things better. But apparently, because our government made some stupid choices, it is okay that the people in NO are suffering? And I know you aren't saying that, it was rhetorical.


Btw, people keep saying people should have walked. HELLO! Do you know how long the bridge outta there is? It alone is about 30 miles long. Where the hell are these poor people supposed to go once they cross that long-ass bridge? Cause it isn't any safer on the other side. You'd have to keep on walking. With your four month old baby, elderly grandma, and your six year old? Just keep walking, about 40-100 miles? Really? You up for that? The first notice you got of a hurricane coming, and mind you, when you live on the Gulf, you get A LOT of warnings, would you pack up a suitcase, leave everything, your job, stuff, etc. to start on a numerous day hike to god knows were? Then when you finally get there, where do you spend the night?

Please people stop saying they should have walked out, I will pull out my hair and scream.

As for people shouldn't live there, it was inviting danger. Please. Everywhere has its issues. I live by two mountains that supposedly are quiet, but any day could erupt. Half of CA could fall off one day. The people in the tsunami region should have known that would happen and not lived there?

Now, should our governments prepare for things better? YES! But that is a governmental issue, not to be blamed on these unfortunates!
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Old 04-09-2005, 12:06   #52
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Well, if you're being bombarded daily about the tragedy in the end you get anesthetised
about it. If that happened in the third world it would have maybe occupied the media for a few days. But it happened in the U.S so you can multiply that by 20 times, and then you're beginning to get a grasp of the media attention.
So as this wasn't caused by any human hand and it was a natural catastrophy, If people want to donate money to the poor it's very welcome but I don't see why this should be considered so much more impotant than tragedies that occured all over the world, because it happened to be in the U.S.A.
Maybe some of the Hollywood stars who're making ridiculous amounts of money can get together and donate some for the tragedy. Or the U.S. government itself who has quite the recources to sort out moments of crisis can do the same. Yeah people who are on the minimum wage will probably do so as well but I'd expect that the wealth and powerful get to it first - so I basically agree to everything that freddie said before.
And hello, how does this relate to the U.S foreign policy at all? Or was it yet another opportunity for people to rekindle the tired argument again?
As to why people hate the United States so much maybe the Americans who are so wound up about this should ask the same question to themselves. There's a Greek saying that goes by the words of "do the good thing and throw it in the ocean"; it means do something good and don't expect to get something in return. If the Americans think that because they help around the world as the wealthiest and strongest country that they are they can basically do whatever they want in their own way without giving a damn about the consequences or what anybody else would think just because it is "righteous" in their own way of thinking, they shouldn't expect that it'd go down very well with the rest. This arrogance and narrowmindedness is basically the cause of the antipathy that people who have not invested interests in the U.S. have towards them. "You're either with us or without us" is quite an exemplification of that arrogance.
And don't start telling me that you've changed because you haven't. The U.S. government was behind that failed coup d'etat in Venezuela, wasn't it. So they're basically trying to do the same things again and nothing has changed, only now thay've got a firm and more tangible rationale to justify their actions. If I were an American I'd be very concerned about the way my government continues to conduct its foreign policy; even more so, if I were a supporter of George W. Bush.
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Old 04-09-2005, 14:24   #53
Rachel Rachel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
And Ice_Cream, I didn't want to respond to you, but every time I read your hateful words...I cannot believe my eyes.
What have I said that's been any difference to anyone else?!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
I have to say your comment was the shittiest of them all. Governments suck and are corrupt, you don't have to be.
Erm....what the fuck about me is corrupt?!! I think you're looking for something that isn't there!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
What has your country given to the world? Does Europe not pollute and bring death?
Does the G8 ring any bells?!! Your leader does not give a FUCKING SHIT about what damage pollution is doing to the world!! He only cares that immoral business men are getting a few extra bucks!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
Are you really so perfectly righteous as to think you don't bring pollution and death to this world?
Which country was in charge of going to Iraq?! The only reason we were that was because our prime minister is so far up George Bush's slimy ass so we didn't have a choice. Only 10% of British people actually agreed to the war in Iraq. *A LOT* more Americans agreed with it because the majority of them are dumb enough to believe the propaganda and hysteria George Bush shits out of his mouth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
You know, all countries bring pollution and death because all countries are run by humans--the ultimate parasite.
Yeah, but at least some countries try!

I remember around the time of Live 8 there was some reporter going around New York asking everyone whether they thought the Africans should be helped. The reporter asked about 20 people, only 2 people said something should be done. The problem is the majority of Americans only care about themselves. They're only happy if they're stomachs are full and they're driving around in their big trucks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
So really, if your reasoning stands, no humans should be helped, no disasters aided, because all disaster is deserved because all humans bring death and pollution.
If you think I seriously said that there's no point even replying to you because you are twisting my fucking words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
So, is that the way you propose we live?
I propose for Americans to become more humane, coz until the majority of them do I'm certainly not putting my hand in my pocket for some ignorant Americans that thought nothing could beat them so they sat on their fat asses and didn't move. Nothing but stupidity!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
I am appalled. Shame on you. You should examine yourself
Wow...Bitty is appalled by me...*commits suicide* LMAO I don't give a shit what you think!!

Wooaahhh, time to flame Rachel!
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Old 04-09-2005, 14:38   #54
spyretto spyretto is offline
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I think you're getting a bit out of hand people and that's understandable as talking about politics can create that effect... but where is forre?? foreeeeeeee! put some order in here. pleeeeease!
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Old 04-09-2005, 14:54   #55
Rachel Rachel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
I think you're getting a bit out of hand people and that's understandable as talking about politics can create that effect...
You can't expect me not to react when there's a post directed at me!
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Old 04-09-2005, 14:59   #56
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Cream
You can't expect me not to react when there's a post directed at me!
Well, you have reacted now, better not continue like that
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Old 04-09-2005, 15:26   #57
marina marina is offline
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Why I try to avoid the political threads like a plague is that they usually get twisted to the heck!
Now ..see we are already talking that the US shouldn't expect to get something in return if they helped before ( even with a little bit of Greek poetry .
America never asked for help to start with !
The reason people are dying in not because there are not enough people or money for that matter. They are dying because damage to the infrastructure won't let people get there to help . The US is a big country with lot of money -- they can fix it in the end , even without international help . But .....that attitude * I don't care , it's all their fault , Bush is moron ,Iraq , global warming, we are better looking than them..etc
In threads like that it's better to say some words of sympathy and ask if our americam forumates and their loved ones are safe and well.
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Old 04-09-2005, 15:34   #58
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Oh-la-la, babies got out of line here.

Okay, guys, we'll close the thread for a few hours. Any objections?
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Old 04-09-2005, 16:29   #59
freddie freddie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
No Freddie, some people said or implied "we" as in the people who live in the US, got what we deserved, all we have contributed is pollution, yes? And, this is a common sentiment, not just on here. But I have found on here that many people think they are so righteous. I simply don't know where they get off.

As for you, well, I was disappointed. Maybe you had no intentions behind your words that were towards policy or malicious, and I believe that is probably true, you are a good person. However, you were one of the first to post and helped to set the tone (whether accidental or not) for this thread, and then proceeded not to argue with the hateful things people posted after you. Not your job to jump on people, you are not forum moral police, lol, but it still bothered me that it didn't bother you enough to stand up and say something.
Who said that? I never got an impression replies were about people getting elated, cause this happened. Hence I didn't reply to any of it. Most people only argued that people should get out, sicne they were warned beforehand. And this had nothing to do with nationality or politics. At least I didn't percieve it that way. And I DID reply to that, stating possible reasons why they maybe couldn't get out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
And, just to argue your thinking, Mitja. On one hand you say that this country is messed up (not your words, I know) and on the other you say that we can take care of ourselves. How does that match? You think we are fucked, but capable? You say we don't know our butt from our face, but we can mobilize and help these people? It's been how many days, and people are being locked in the stadium? People are dying of heat and starvation in this country you think can take care of itself? Maybe you think too much of us while hating (yes a strong word, sorry my vocab is limited at the moment) us? It is funny... don't you think?
I never said any of that. I don't even think I commented on ANYTHING american at least. I simply stated that you have enough resources in Washington to pull through this ALONE. This has got nothing to do with people's mentalities, foreign policies (I gather this is whta other people were criticizing?) or anything else - it's just a cold hard fact you have enough money to pull through it. And that's what you need in a time of crisis like this. Me saying I won't donate money wasn't at all a critique of America. It was a compliment, rather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
Oh-la-la, babies got out of line here.

Okay, guys, we'll close the thread for a few hours. Any objections?
Eh. I'd suggest you leave it opened for a while. Better an angry thread than permanent resentments, I'd say.
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Last edited by freddie; 04-09-2005 at 16:55.
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Old 04-09-2005, 22:21   #60
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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This shouldn’t be about politics, because we are talking about human lives and suffering in the face of a natural disaster…but by your statement, you brought politics into this and I will reply in kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_Cream
What have I said that's been any difference to anyone else?!
Quote:
You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.
If you can't see where the above quote isn't hateful...then you have issues. You get back what you give? That we SHOULD experience this? You are basically saying that the tragedy that occurred should have occurred. Maybe you really believe this, maybe you really do think people should die because you disagree with US policy. I don't and can't.



Quote:
Does the G8 ring any bells?!! Your leader does not give a FUCKING SHIT about what damage pollution is doing to the world!! He only cares that immoral business men are getting a few extra bucks!!!
I'm sorry, Ice Cream, but the whole world is run by the almighty dollar, euro, yen, etc. I don't know where you have been living to think that man acts out of the greatness of his heart and love of nature. Man is selfish and self-serving. And I love how you say that our leader doesn't give a shit as your basis for condemning the entire country. You do realize that most people think that the elections were tampered? That Bush is not the most popular person in this country. The hate for him here is tangible.

Quote:
Which country was in charge of going to Iraq?! The only reason we were that was because our prime minister is so far up George Bush's slimy ass so we didn't have a choice.
I would say that is fairly corrupt then. So the only reason you are there is because of your leader? I could say the same, why can't you see that? Because our leader has his head shoved so far up his own slimy ass.


Quote:
because the majority of them are dumb enough to believe the propaganda and hysteria George Bush shits out of his mouth.
At this point, I don't agree with that. In the beginning, people were more inclined to support the president, because our country is build on high ideals of liberty. People wanted to believe and have faith in their leader. But don't say that the majority of people support Bush. And you know, people make mistakes. As you said, they are misled by propaganda. Now it is too late, we are over there, and now need to clean up our mess. So, I'm sorry, Ice_Cream. I am sorry my countries leaders decided to go into a war that was uninvited without giving us the details. I am sorry that many Americans had faith in our president upholding our high ideals. I'm sorry we let you down. But those people suffering in New Orleans have NOTHING to do with your hatred towards Bush and the people who supported Bush. You realize 80%+ people down there are black and most blacks are democrats, thus NOT Bush supporters. That most of these people are in poverty, which means they are not the big white man who, as you say, only "cares that immoral business and getting a few extra bucks." These people represent nothing that you hate, if anything, they represent everything your supposedly humane self should pity and protect.


Quote:
Yeah, but at least some countries try!
For you to even attempt to say that the US doesn't try is ridiculous. So our leader doesn’t care enough for your taste. He is one man in a high position of power. He does not represent the feeling of America. Environment has always been a high ideal of American citizens, something we have worked very hard to balance with our capitalistic nature. Yeah it sucks that we are capitalistic money hungry bastards. But don't tell me your country isn't or that we are more deserving of tragedy because of it.

"Washington -- On the eve of the Group of Eight (G8) Summit, where Africa is slated to be a major focus, President Bush has reaffirmed the commitment of the United States to partner with African countries to respond to their economic, political and health challenges. He also announced three new initiatives to be presented at the summit in Gleneagles, Scotland, that are designed to help eradicate poverty in Africa through broader education, enhanced justice for women and a more robust fight against the continent’s leading killer, malaria."

You know around my town there is a recycling bin on every corner? One for paper, one for plastic, one for glass, one for cardboard, etc. etc. You know we enforce emissions testing? My school’s focus is environmental law.
Just to list a few: National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (NEPA); Chemical Safety Information, Site Security and Fuels Regulatory Relief Act; The Clean Air Act (CAA); The Clean Water Act; Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and
Liability Act; The Emergency Planning & Community Right-To-Know Act; The Endangered Species Act; Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act; Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act; The Oil Pollution Act of 1990; The Pollution Prevention Act; The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act; The Safe Drinking Water Act; The Toxic Substances Control Act; 1965 Shoreline Erosion Protection Act; 1972 Coastal Zone Management Act; 1972 Marine Protection, Research, and Sanctuaries Act.

I could go on and on, the list is a mile long and those are only federal level statutes. We aren’t even talking about state level laws (which are in the millions) and international programs we are a part of. You only list G8, please support your side more. You see, I only have the burden of showing we “at least try”, you have the burden of proving we don’t try, which is impossible, because it is clear from above, we do.

So from the one event at Live 8, you can glean that all Americans are stupid bastards who only care about themselves… Are you blind, do you simply only see what you want to see? We are often times the first to respond with aid to foreign countries. Our country comes together and raises money and support and gathers people to go over to other countries ALL THE FUCKING TIME. We have USAID, American Red Cross, god, the list goes on and on. I can’t believe you can sit yourself up so high and think that maybe this country should feel what it feels like to suffer when you live in England…the Imperial king of the world. So you aren’t top dog now, where do you think the US got its ideology from?

Quote:
I propose for Americans to become more humane, coz until the majority of them do I'm certainly not putting my hand in my pocket for some ignorant Americans that thought nothing could beat them so they sat on their fat asses and didn't move. Nothing but stupidity!!!
I think what is so ironic is that you’ve just exposed yourself as being the most inhumane one here. I find the pot is calling the kettle black. Show me some humanity before condemning those poor people down in NO to pay for the injustices the world has suffered under Bush. I propose you become more humane.

And we aren’t asking for your money. Never have been. I don’t expect you to even show your emotional support. However, you crossed the line of decency and humanity when you said that maybe this should have happened. That the ONLY thing (which is an grievously overstated remark) we give to the world is death and pollution, there by implying that because we bring those negatives we somehow deserve our suffering. I argue back saying that EVERYONE brings death and pollution, thus, should no one ever be helped. Would that be a better, more humane world? I think not.

Quote:
If you think I seriously said that there's no point even replying to you because you are twisting my fucking words!
But you still felt the need to reply. And I don't think any twisting happened. I think the implication of your words was pretty clear. If that wasn't your intention to be callous and heartless and inhumane, then maybe you need to think before you speak. That is all I was saying.

Quote:
I don't give a shit what you think!!
I know, and that is what is so sad. (Edited because it undermines my philosophy, *sigh*) You’ve exposed yourself as being everything that you hate.

Last edited by Bitty2002; 05-09-2005 at 00:37.
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