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Old 01-08-2006, 23:27   #21
freddie freddie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
600 Lebanese *civilians* killed (not to mention half a million homeless) in retaliation for 2 *soldiers* captured, that's an incredible over reaction. If Western countries reacted like that each time Westerners are taken hostage in the Middle-East, we would have already nuked the whole region.
There's a huge difference though between foreign civilians or soldiers are being held hostage and Israeli soldiers being kidnaped on their own teritory. That is a breech of geo-political sovergnity - one of the harshest things that could be done in international law. It's literaly a decleration of war and Hezbollah knew that damn well. I'm absolutely convinced every extremist military organization thrives on war and chaos, since that's when their suport is at it's strongest. And Hezbollah is in no way different. This latest war is a blessing in disguise for them, since they'll be able to recruit a bunch of new people who're 10 or 12 today and are in the process of starting to hate Israel as we speak. I think Israel did a foolish thing to retaliate in this manner, but I also think it's unjustified to demonize them. They're doing what many countries would do if their sovergnity was threatened in such a way. It's just a question of whether it's a smart move or not in this case to follow "an eye for an eye" tactic at this point in time. Make no mistake about it though - Hezbollah is the source of TRUE evil here. They know exactly what they're doing and this propaganda stick with "israelis killing innocent lebanese" which people are so hastily adapting without prejudice is suiting them nicely. Lets not forget those that most Lebanese civilians die cause Hezbollah militants hide inside densely poopulated areas and thus literaly using civilians as a human shield. Classy indeed.
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Old 02-08-2006, 00:45   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
There's a huge difference though between foreign civilians or soldiers are being held hostage and Israeli soldiers being kidnaped on their own territory. That is a breech of geo-political sovergnity - one of the harshest things that could be done in international law.
First of all, Israel regularly assassinates Arab leaders outside its borders, and Israel has conducted many air strikes on neighboring countries (for no other reasons than that infamous 'preemptive action' concept which basically allows Israel to kill anyone and destroy anything it wants because it *might* someday be a threat).
So what's the rule here? Israel can strike at will on Arabs outside its borders, but Arabs can't strike back on Israeli soil? Please.

Second, from an Arab point of view, Israel is occupying Arab lands, therefore the Israeli army is an occupying force and a legitimate target. Resistance fighters capturing occupying soldiers is within what's acceptable during a war, retaliating on civilians to 'punish' that attack on soldiers is *not*, during WWII the German army was also regularly retaliating on French civilians each time the French resistance attacked German soldiers, it was a war crime then, it is a war crime now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
this propaganda stick with "israelis killing innocent lebanese"
It's no propaganda, Israel is killing hundreds of civilians.
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:21   #23
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Wasn't it Hizbollah that "kidnapped these two soldiers"? Well, if I'm not getting it wrong, Hizbollah is a terror organization like f.ex Hamas, but without being in government in Lebanon? Well... Israel isn't fighting the _organization_ but all of Lebanon because people could potentially hide Hizbollah-people..... They're killing bunch of innocent and even destroyed a FN-base that has been in the area for decades! And then their FN-ambassador have this super-arrogant speech about the whole issue. And when people here at home criticize them for their warfare their ambassador in norway says it's anti-semitism and blasphemy while being extreme hypocritical Gawd, how I wish that USA wasn't being their protective big brother. Or how I'd wish that FN never made the country in the first place. It has brought nothing but sorrow and misery between the western and the islamic parts of the world.
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:29   #24
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Why do we keep saying "Arab?" Which Arabs are we talking about here?

Are you assuming that they are all united, and that borders within the Middle East are arbitrary or something? Because I can assure you that Arabs are not, have never been and will never be united for anything. The Pan-Arab movement dreamt by Nasser is long dead.
It died when Jordan stuck its neck out Palestinians by housing them and fighting on behalf of them only to have Palestinians (the Fedayeen) attempt to overthrow the Kingdom. It also died in Beirut when Palestinians (PLO) tried to claim it as their own by further splintering the religious groups during the civil war.
Iraq's invasion of Kuwait is another fine example of Arab unity. And with the war now in Iraq, the sheer fact that Shiites are dying more than anyone else including the occupying force can give just you an illustration of how much they hate each other.

And you can see it now with this war. It is the Shiites that are fighting Israelis in Lebanon, not the Sunnis, Druze, or Christians, just the Shiites. Notice how the Sunnis are reacting throughout the Middle East, dead silence. They sure as shit don't want Shiite revival, especially facing the potential of Iran exanding all across the Middle East. Tells you something about the "Arab" unity when at least half of Arabs would rather Israel exist than let Shiites become more prominent in the region than they already are.

Hezbollah is nothing but a bunch of shit disturbers. They are willing to throw an entire country into another war where most don't even support it, and what's worse, know exactly how fragile the country is in that the gov't can't prevent it and will most probably it'll be even harder for the country to bounce back from this compared to before. What do they care anyway, they are more allied to Syria and Iran than to Lebanon.
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:05   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
First of all, Israel regularly assassinates Arab leaders outside its borders, and Israel has conducted many air strikes on neighboring countries (for no other reasons than that infamous 'preemptive action' concept which basically allows Israel to kill anyone and destroy anything it wants because it *might* someday be a threat).
So what's the rule here? Israel can strike at will on Arabs outside its borders, but Arabs can't strike back on Israeli soil? Please.
Those "Arab leaders" are usually leaders of terrorist groups which Israel hunts down for national security reasons. Things they take action against ARE a threat when they do it. Hezbollah has absolutely no "national security reasons" to kidnap those soldiers. All they wanted to do (and succeded in doing) is gain notoriety from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
Second, from an Arab point of view, Israel is occupying Arab lands, therefore the Israeli army is an occupying force and a legitimate target. Resistance fighters capturing occupying soldiers is within what's acceptable during a war, retaliating on civilians to 'punish' that attack on soldiers is *not*, during WWII the German army was also regularly retaliating on French civilians each time the French resistance attacked German soldiers, it was a war crime then, it is a war crime now.
Arab point of view doesn't matter when it comes to borders recognized by the UN and the international community. They can claim someone took their land all they want, but at the end of the day they're still breeching sovereignty of another country - which is a valid reason for attack - and Hezbollah militants knew that damn well. They stired things up and then retreat back to civilian facilities, so there'll be massive collateral damage in case Israel strikes. THAT is what's killing those innocent civilians.

I still think Israelis are silly for letting themselves get provoked by it to react in such a manner. It'll only fuel the fire for future conflicts as extremists get stronger and stronger during this conflict (and any conflict for that matter). But I don't think for a minute not them or the US had destroying Lebanon on their agenda any time soon. If anything Lebanon was a success story in the Middle East. A blue-print of how a moderate Arab country should operate - despite all the divisions between Arabs and other religious groups in the country. Unfortunately they're being taken hostage by Hezbollah militias (which is partly their fault for letting it in the first place).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
Why do we keep saying "Arab?" Which Arabs are we talking about here?
Religious extremists want nothing more than a quasi united front against a common zionist enemy. For as long as they have something to fight from the outside they won't actually deal with matters of their own ethnic and cultural divisions - that comes later when there's no one around to get in conflicts with. Every militia group in the middle east uses the same rhetoric - it's the attack on the whole muslim world... ALL muslims - not just Arabs - should fight a religious war against the forces from the outside trying to destroy Islam blahblahblah... I know it's all bullshit but for the time being they'll feed this all-muslim propaganda for as long as it's convenient.
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:32   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
Arab point of view doesn't matter when it comes to borders recognized by the UN and the international community.
Too bad that the Israel border at this date were never in original plan of UN. Israel has been greedy from day one, and have been able to be greedy with USA on their side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
Those "Arab leaders" are usually leaders of terrorist groups which Israel hunts down for national security reasons.
...and slaughters innocent people and blows up a 28 year old UN-base on the way and then jokes about it afterwards.
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Old 02-08-2006, 13:28   #27
freddie freddie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradeel
Too bad that the Israel border at this date were never in original plan of UN. Israel has been greedy from day one, and have been able to be greedy with USA on their side.
That's a very one-sided, black&white view on a very complicated affair. No one got "greedy". There were numerous wars all spawned by inability (from both sides) to make any diplomatic advancements. In 1947 an UN proposal was on the table - Israel accepted it, Arabs didn't. As simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dradeel
...and slaughters innocent people and blows up a 28 year old UN-base on the way and then jokes about it afterwards.
No one jokes about it. Mistakes happen. Sometimes tragic mistakes. Super-powers like USSR and USA made their fair share as well - they both took down a commercial jet full of passengers, while mistaking it for a spy aircraft. In this case it's even more clear - there's a war going on and collateral damage was always a part of war. I still think most civilian casualties are Hezbollah's fault since they're using civilians as human shields.
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Old 02-08-2006, 14:50   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
Those "Arab leaders" are usually leaders of terrorist groups which Israel hunts down for national security reasons. Things they take action against ARE a threat when they do it.
See? You're justifying the breaking of international law when it's Israel that does it, it's the typical American stance: Israel can do no wrong, Israel is always right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
Arab point of view doesn't matter when it comes to borders recognized by the UN and the international community.
I think we all realize that the Arab point of view doesn't matter indeed, it's the all tragedy of the region, Arabs represent 99% of the population, but their point of view has never mattered. And give me a break about the UN and international law, we all know that the US and Israel only respect the UN and international law when they suit their needs and don't give a shit about them when they don't (the murder of those UN observers a few days ago show how much Israel respect the UN, and it was no mistake, Israel regularly murders UN representatives as a 'warning', the first of their victims was UN mediator Folke Bernadotte who was murdered by Israelis in 1948).
The only law that matters in the Middle-East is the American law, either you agree with the US and you are good, or you disagree and you are evil, as simple as that. This brilliant logic leads to obvious double standards: if Israel uses terrorism to achieve its goals, it's right and justified, if Arabs do the same, it's wrong and evil; if Israel annexes Arab territories, it's right and fair, if Arabs try to regain those territories, it's wrong and illegal; if Arabs captures a few Israeli soldiers, it's wrong and criminal, if Israel retaliates by killing hundreds of civilians, it's right and justified; if anyone sends weapons to Lebanon so they can defend themselves, it's illegal and evil, if the US sends tons of high-tech weapons to Israel so they can coninue the attack, it's right and justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
But I don't think for a minute not them or the US had destroying Lebanon on their agenda any time soon.
The destruction of Lebabon was planned, no date was set, but it was planned, you don't send back an entire country to stone age just because of a border incident if you were not already planning to do it. And yes, Lenanon was a success story, all the more reasons for Israel to destroy it, Israel does not want healthy Arab countries on its borders, it wants agonizing Arabs struggling to stay alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
In 1947 an UN proposal was on the table - Israel accepted it, Arabs didn't. As simple as that.
Of course Israel accepted, they were offered half a territory that belonged to somebody else, who would say no to that? And of course Palestinians refused, half of their land was being stolen from them, who would accept such a 'deal'?



As a side note, beyond the murder of UN mediator Folke Bernadotte by the Israelis, people who think Israel is run by angels may want to check those pages on Irgun and Lehi, the terrorist arm of Israel in the early days. Those Israeli terrorists murdered hundreds of people and were of course never punished for their actions, quite the contrary, most of them like Yitzhak Shamir became prominent politicians or formed the Mossad (the organization that now conducts Israel's terrorist actions), another example that 'terrorism' is often a question of perspective, if you win you are a hero, if you lose you are a criminal. The hypocrisy being of course that israel which was built on terrorism now condems Arabs for doing exactly the same.
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Old 02-08-2006, 15:42   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
Don't blame the Israelis for that. If you have to blame someone, blame the English and their Balfour Declaration of 1934
I absolutely agree with that, Laura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
And yes, Lenanon was a success story, all the more reasons for Israel to destroy it, Israel does not want healthy Arab countries on its borders, it wants agonizing Arabs struggling to stay alive.
I think that Israël is going a lot too much in destroying Lebanon.
I would say poor Lebanon....who is paying for the Syrians...

So, all depends of your points of view:
-Or you think that Israël has no reason and no right to exist and in a such case...Israël has all wrong.
-Or you think that may be it was a mistake at the origin: the artificial creation of Israël but now Israël is here, it has right to exist....but in a such case, I personnaly think that Syria and iran should have been the direct targets of Israël.
Cause Lebanon was a peaceful country before to be taken as hostage by Syria.
Of course Syrian army has left Lebanon some months ago but Syrians are everywhere in the administration...everywhere...Lebanon still belongs to Syria.

Just some thoughs:
I disagree with what Israël is doing right now to Lebanon.

Palestinians, instead of trying to install themselves in the part of territories which were given to them and to try to get more territories thanks to the international negociations, have prefered to vote for the resistance by weapons...so...there is no hope.

It's clear now that Israël doesn't want a Palestinian state.
But who would like to have a neighbor who just wants to kill you?

Now if you think it's good to destroy and erase Israël , do it in giving credits to all the attentats against it....may be the destruction of Israël will happen in the future...

Patrick, even if I totally condamn all those dead people in Lebanon too...you who are so good with numbers....could you tell me how many people the "guerilla" has killed of civilians in Irak until now please?
Why do you accept that, Pat ? I mean I've never seen one post from you condamning all those murders each day in Irak....each day you have 65 deaths, or 15 days....or....in the civil population. It's more than 800 persons now.

By the way Lebanon was an artificially built country too if my memory is good, isn't it?
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Old 02-08-2006, 17:02   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
Patrick, even if I totally condamn all those dead people in Lebanon too...you who are so good with numbers....could you tell me how many people the "guerilla" has killed of civilians in Irak until now please?
Why do you accept that, Pat ? I mean I've never seen one post from you condamning all those murders each day in Irak....each day you have 65 deaths, or 15 days....or....in the civil population. It's more than 800 persons now.
I've expressed my opposition to the US invasion of Iraq many times, i thougth it would lead to civil war and there it is. But my point of view has lost and i have nothing more to add, i'm letting the pro-Americans rejoice over their victory.

Now i'm expressing my opposition to the destruction of Lebanon, and once that destruction is over, i'll shut up and let the pro-Israelis rejoice over their victory.

And when Syria and Iran are attacked by the US, i'll express one again my opposition.

I don't believe in that new 'world order' that the US wants to impose on all of us by force, and i'll prostest at each step of that madness. As for protesting against the chaos that follows each of those steps, it's pointless since it is the direct result of the initial attacks and way too late to do anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
By the way Lebanon was an artificially built country too if my memory is good, isn't it?
I wouldn't say that, Phenicia has existed since Antiquity and the land between the sea and the Lebanon mountains has always been inhabited by a distinct population.
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Old 02-08-2006, 17:54   #31
nath nath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
i'm letting the pro-Americans rejoice over their victory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
let the pro-Israelis rejoice over their victory.
Sorry Pat but those sentences are just pure rethoric for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
As for protesting against the chaos that follows each of those steps, it's pointless since it is the direct result of the initial attacks and way too late to do anything.
I don't think so.
When you see people murdered each day, I don't think "it's pointless" to react.

Can we really speak here about a "civil war" by the way? Or some of those attentats aren't the acts of some people who have never lived in Irak before?
So can't we call that a "new order world" too with an islamist domination instead of an american domination?
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Old 02-08-2006, 19:05   #32
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It's so obvious that Iran supports Hezbollah so next target is going to be Iran for being destroyed.
But what's the civilians fault?
Killing civilians is going to make anything better?
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Old 02-08-2006, 22:04   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
No one jokes about it.
Israel's UN-ambassador ment that UN should never take part in any peacekeeping missions in Lebanon and made fun about UN interim forces saying "In UN interim means 28 years" - and that's right after they bombed the place to dust, killing 4 UN workers! - And he continued with claiming that the UN forces placed in the area were only there for being a buffer between Israel and Lebanon, not to help and maintain peace in Lebanon, and last that Hizbollah militants have been using the UN base for help and protection against Israel ... as if the UN base was cooperating with Hizbollah against Israel.

That's heavy accusations... I call that making fun of, and in a fairly presumptuous way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmad
It's so obvious that Iran supports Hezbollah so next target is going to be Iran for being destroyed.
Iran supports Hizbollah with money, and both Iran and Syria supports Hizbollah morally. However, I do believe that Syria supports them with guns and ammo as well. I don't think going to war against Iran will help a single thing. It would be hopeless. However, Syria ... there you have the biggest thorn in your foot. A country filled with terrorists, ready to supply any terrorist organization with tons of weapons and money. Why Israel is bombing Lebanon and not Syria is beyond my grasp. They would've cut Hizbollah off at once and could be fighting terrorists as they should be doing...
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Old 03-08-2006, 18:31   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
Sorry Pat but those sentences are just pure rethoric for me.
And i'm sorry you think that's meaningless.

What is happening in Iraq now is exactly what i thought would happen before the war started. So many people who knew the region very well had warned the Americans that this war would be a disaster and only bring chaos and destruction, but they went for it anyway and now chaos is there. But i have no interest in saying 'i told you so, look at the mess you've made' since it only leads to even more angry reactions from the pro-war supporters than before the war happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
When you see people murdered each day, I don't think "it's pointless" to react.
Well, i don't see many people reacting about anything political on this forum (unless it's gay rights), at least i'm reacting about *something*, but i don't see why i'm the only one who is always criticized for not reacting about this or that while plenty of people never react about anything.
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Old 03-08-2006, 18:38   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
...unless it's gay rights
That is expected though. Of course the gay & bisexual members here have something to say about that kinda thing. Sadly it's the usual thing of only caring about an issue when it effects you, hence the reason why people seem to think nothing of hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians dying.
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Old 03-08-2006, 19:36   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
Sadly it's the usual thing of only caring about an issue when it effects you, hence the reason why people seem to think nothing of hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians dying.


I don't agree - lots of people around the world are angry and upset of the civilian losses but after a while you can't react as forcefully. We've allowed the American occupation in Iraq to continue without a practical objective and without a justifiable cause, other that the generic rhetoric for the "war on terror" - That was a lot worse. We're clearly losing the fight.
At least that is collateral damage and it's "regrettable". While terrorists target civilians specifically. So there is a bit of a difference there - or not?
The objective is more tangible in this case - Hezbollah.
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Old 03-08-2006, 20:25   #37
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Pat, don't be mad at me...you know it's a little game, here, between you and me when we speak about politics...because ours points of views are different...but I have absolutely nothing against you.

I've never created a politics thread and I don't think I'll do.
It's often you or Freddie who are at the origin of these threads and I think it's a good thing that they could exist thanks to you.

You say that I'm pro-Israël but I'll make you notice that I have condemned this invasion of Lebanon above.
You think I'm pro-America...I would say I feel myself more as an "Anti "Anti-America"."..which is a little bit different for me.

Here, I've just evocated the fact that If 1 American kills another person, you say it's a scandal.
If an Israeli kills another person, you say it's a scandal.
And you're right, cause each stolen life is a scandal.

But I've just pointed the fact that when several dozens of persons are assassinated by their "brothers", there is no comments against those murderers.

When one person is condemned to the Death Penalty in the States, there are lots of posts but nobody condemns all the Deaths and all the violated Human Rights in Iran.

So as I've already said it, I have just the feeling that the critics are very hard (and sometimes it's justified even to my eyes... ) in "one direction" but that we have very often "the silent" about the same and even worse barbarian acts if they have as origin "the other camp".

Offtop:
Here,about Irak, you've said again that it was the fault of America but you haven't condemned yet these atrocities. Americans were may be at the origin, but they aren't the ones who are bombing in the markets...

Last edited by nath; 04-08-2006 at 10:29.
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Old 03-08-2006, 21:02   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
What is happening in Iraq now is exactly what i thought would happen before the war started. So many people who knew the region very well had warned the Americans that this war would be a disaster and only bring chaos and destruction, but they went for it anyway and now chaos is there. But i have no interest in saying 'i told you so, look at the mess you've made' since it only leads to even more angry reactions from the pro-war supporters than before the war happened.
God, aren't we over-generalizing much?
If I recall correctly there wasn't anybody active today in this entire forum who supported the American invasion of Iraq. Just because some of us kind of support Israel in this particular matter doesn't mean we support every attack on Arabs and Muslims in general.
Furthermore, the current American administration does not represent the sentiment Americans as a whole have towards the war. They didn't support it in the beginning and they sure as shit don't support it now. The last election was won by half of the US's sheer hatred of gays not through the war. If anything hate US's tendency to let homophobia and utter short-sightedness outweigh common sense. I know I do.

As for this whole thing, when it comes to Palestine and Israel, by default I tend to side with Palestine because in the end the simple fact that people cannot go back to their land because some other people are there is fucked up beyond recognition. But my support is waning. Every since Israel pulled out of Gaza there hasn't been one day where Palestinians haven't launched rockets into Israel and pulling out of Lebanon six years ago being seen as weakness by Hezbollah. nath is right, the fear of being "driven to the sea" by your neighbours actually being realized is what drives Israelis to this kind of over-reaction. If every Arab laid his/her weapon down there would be peace in the Middle East, if every Israeli did that there'd be another genocide.

All these years of violence from Palestinians and what has been gained here?
You think Israel is going to leave and return to the welcoming, Jew-loving arms of Iran, Iraq, Poland, Russia, etc?
Give me a break.
Maybe, just maybe Palestinians could try negotiatng for land. Who knows, perhaps the promise of not killing Jews may sound attractive to Israelis.
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Old 03-08-2006, 21:09   #39
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradeel
Gawd, how I wish that USA wasn't being their protective big brother.
If the US wasn't helping them, who would? European countries? Please don't drag my country through the mud just because we happen to realize the necesseity of having a Jewish state.

Quote:
Or how I'd wish that UN never made the country in the first place. It has brought nothing but sorrow and misery between the western and the islamic parts of the world.
yes because the western world is really suffering for it The western world's suffering started long before 1948. And if the UN hadn't made Israel a country where would the world's displaced Jewish population go? Were they supposed to stay in British internment camps on Cyprus for the rest of eternity? NO ONE wanted them. Not the United States and certainly not the European countries. The Bitish use to send them back to fucking Hamburg when their camps on Cyprus were full and they use to sink cargo ships snicking Jews into Palestine. Where's the Humanity in that?
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Old 03-08-2006, 21:57   #40
dradeel dradeel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
The western world's suffering started long before 1948.
True... there were anti-western groups back in the 1700s and have been to this day, but why feed the fire with more wood? In this case; petrol soaked wood. And the western world has suffered because of it! 9/11, Madrid, London ...? The Islamic hate against the west have never been as big as it is now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
Please don't drag my country through the mud just because we happen to realize the necesseity of having a Jewish state.
The necessity of having a Jewish state? No religious people has the right for their own state. It's like we're treating Israel like the US is treating the native americans... they get their own land and then they can do as they like ... only difference is that the native americans actually lived in america before the white man, but Israel and the Jews has no historic record of having more right over that land than anyone else. The old testament isn't worth a penny as a source for history. And another thing: You can't put one religion above others and say that this people deserve this land more than others, and then push those who live there aside for the jews to settle down..?

Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy for the jews and their history. I don't wanna sound like some religion-hating soab, but I just don't think making Israel was a good idea. I believe there could've been better ways of handling the situation.

And sry, I don't want to drag your country through the mud. I have nothing against America or americans. I admire USA actually, but it's a fact that your government acts like they're world police and stick their nose in everybody's business, and defends Israel at any costs, careless of what the rest of the world thinks. If US had supported UN and pressured Israel to tear down the wall and move back the borders to the original UN plan, then perhaps we could have a more peaceful situation down there. I've said it before, and I say it again; I wish Sharon could've finished his work. You can say whatever you like about that guy, but I think he was actually trying to fix things at the end of his career. And even if he was an asshole at times the new guy now is much worse
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