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Old 05-02-2006, 13:53   #41
Argos Argos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber
Muslims need to learn the meaning of the word 'moderation', the Middle Ages are over ... there are so many different beliefs in the world, and they need to realize that freedom of expression always comes first and can't be limited in any way by any religion ... how come Muslims find it perfectly acceptable to see a Western hostage being decapitated with a knife live on their television, but find it absolutely unacceptable that Western media publishes some caricatures?...
Totally agreed on that, but we have to remember that since the Middle Ages we had Humanism, Reformation, Enlightenment, the French Revolution, Socialism, Female Rights and the establishment of democracy in almost all European countries, for the latter one a few countries needed more than one try. I am no expert in islamic culture, but I don't think that they have experiences with comparable impact on society. Our society has many pillars, religion being only one of them, in wide parts of the islamic world from northern Africa to the Middle East there seems to be only dictatorship and religion as fundaments of society, religion being the only source of at least some form of stability, security, welfare and justice. That should explain sufficiently, why muslims react so oversensitive to attacks on religion. To understand them we have to learn to think a little bit more in their way and not only in our's.
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Old 05-02-2006, 14:16   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teeny
that's not the lesson to be learned no. The lesson to be learned is tolerance, and that goes all the way around. If all share the gift of knowing how to laugh certain things off, then we wouldn't be in this mess
I dont agree with that.Making laugh about everything isnt good at all and as you see some people cant take it.
Dont get me wrong I'm not saying that muslims reaction was right.that reaction is such a big shame.
But Im sure everyone more or less knew how extremist muslims would react about that caricature.I just dont know what was the logic behind drawing that caricature.
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Old 05-02-2006, 14:23   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmad
What do you mean by that? :

I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?
That almost sounded like a threat... "...don't mess with the uber-sensitive muslims if you know what's good for you, cause they'll definitely fuck you up..."

Seriously, when did Islam get this holy right to be more sensitive than other religions about such trivial things? And why should European tradition of provocative caricature that's been going on for more than 300 years and with it the freedom of speach bow down to a bunch of religious fanatics? There's much more at stake here than just the right to publish a bunch of silly caricatures in a newspaper most Arabs haven't even heard of. It's about the right of expression. The right to an opinion without being persecuted or threatened for it. This reaction is probably the way Catolic Church would respond in the 15th century. The middle east has to wake the fuck up. The Islam would itself, has to wake the fuck up. These are not the middle ages. This is the 21st century. Adapt! We're all sharing the same planet.
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Old 05-02-2006, 14:29   #44
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logic has little to do with the whole situation. My thought in the matter is that the drawings have little to do with the situation. Or at least that the whole thing about asking for an apoligy is one big illussion. There is no way saying "sorry" is going to clear up what have now started. Someone are adding fuel to the fire and refuse to stop doing so. Why bring the drawings to extreme groups in the first place? They were printed in Denmark - let them stay there and react in Denmark instead. There would have been posted an apoligy months ago if some felt they needed one. Instead it was brought to other countries and no further explanation was provided it seems (interview with one of the messengers yesterday in danish tv). He said the drawings speaks on their own. And no they certainly do not.
Rumours started about burning of the Coran in demonstations - and no they did not burn flags or anything. In fact people got arrested BEFORE real troubles started. Like things should go. And riots start because of the rumours..
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Old 05-02-2006, 14:48   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
However, it isn't as unfortunate as that the fact that these people are the only people representing Islam.
It would be sad if anyone actually believes that the terrorists (idiots) are representing Islam when in fact, they are tarnishing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
It took five years after 9/11 for Clerics to establish a Fatwa against terrorists, and those Clerics were in the West.
That is probably one thing that I may never understand. They should have denounced terrorists the very day (9/11) they killed thousands of innocent civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
Even so, Muslims still critisize Christians through gross misinterpretations; e.g. They see the phrase "Holy Trinity" and think Christians worship three Gods, thus making Christianity invalid.
I don't know how the Muslims perceive the phrase "Holy Trinity". But I do know that they believe Jesus (PBUH) is a Prophet. Therefore, they disagree with the Christians who believe otherwise.

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Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
Not to mention that in their eyes, both the Bible and the Torah are outdated.
It would be ignorant on their part to hold such view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddie
I agree about Islam extremists giving the whole religion a bad name. The ironic part is that they're probably not ever TRUE believers. Allah and all Islam stands for is just a neat tool of politics and manipulation for them. I doubt Osama Bin Laden is really religious. I doubt the Taliban scholars were really religious. I doubt Abu Massad Al-Zakawi is religious. But that's just my personal opinon.
I agree with everything you have mentioned including your personal opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber
On the other hand, just because of a *drawing*, we're seeing thousands of Muslims running around in the streets, burning flags, attacking Western embassies, looking out for Westerners to lynch, and dozens of Muslim leaders have sentenced Danish people to death… Overreacting much?
The way these muslims are protesting is just plain horrible!
someone should remind them of the words: peaceful demonstration.
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Old 05-02-2006, 14:57   #46
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on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? Is it because the flags are similar?
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:02   #47
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I presume they're ruining anything they associate with the so called evil west...but I'm probably wrong.
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:04   #48
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Rachel, I think you are right.
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:22   #49
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I think they need to realise doing this is not the smart thing to do, the more they do this, the more sympathy they are going to lose. They need to realise they are not more important than anyone else in the world.

I could respect them if they were having peaceful demonstrations, but what they are doing is STUPID! They are turning into their own worst enemies.

I'm starting to think for every building they burn of everyone elses, we should burn one of theirs! See how they feel!!! But of course that isn't smart...and more destruction certainly isn't gonna help things
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:31   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel
I could respect them if they were having peaceful demonstrations, but what they are doing is STUPID! They are turning into their own worst enemies.
Apparently, the term "Peaceful demonstrations" doesn't exists in their dictionary. I don't think stupid is even the word to describe what they are doing. Bunch of ignorants!
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:41   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teeny
on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? Is it because the flags are similar?
Probably a Scandinavian thing?
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:41   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zelda05
I don't think stupid is even the word to describe what they are doing. Bunch of ignorants!
ignorant people do STUPID THINGS but wise people do BIG MISTAKES.
Which one is more dangerous?
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Old 05-02-2006, 15:50   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmad
ignorant people do STUPID THINGS but wise people do BIG MISTAKES.
Which one is more dangerous?
And sometimes it's wise power-hungry people who know how to work the crowd and manipulate public opinion by evoking people's religious feelings. Which is what happened here, imo.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:02   #54
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The majority of the people in the very religious arab countries have been massmanipulated since forever. An opinion isn't a valid opinion unless it's "I love god".

Thankfully that is wearing off now and more and more people are highly educated and don't mind expressing their own opinion.
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:04   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
And sometimes it's wise power-hungry people who know how to work the crowd and manipulate public opinion by evoking people's religious feelings
Yes,that's right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
Which is what happened here, imo.
And that's why I said"what's the logic behind this" who is playing with who?and why?
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:04   #56
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teeny, apparently Norway and Finland (?) are being attacked too, maybe because they're part of Scandinavia or something. Are they neutral when it comes to USA? I mean, are they with them or against them? I know that we (Sweden) are neutral and that could be a reason to why no-one gives a crap about us. It's just a matter of time, though.
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:05   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenBee
Thankfully that is wearing off now and more and more people are highly educated and don't mind expressing their own opinion.
I don't see anything changing right now.
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:06   #58
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Rachel, not in general, but many people from these countries have been interview by Swedish TV (and aired here, obviously) and they go against their countries. Strangely enough there were many women who said this, which really surprised me as they are usually not ... you know, worth that much. Now they're getting educations and trying to change their countries (HAHAHAHA good luck).
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:07   #59
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Quote:
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(HAHAHAHA good luck).
Indeed...they're gonna need it!
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Old 05-02-2006, 16:18   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xmad
I have a question?If you know muslims and their reactions so why do you make a caricature of Muhammad ? Are you seriously looking for trouble?
So let me get this straight, Muslims are allowed to get away with degrading Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism because they know that believers of these religions won't get that upset?


Quote:
Originally Posted by teeny
on a slightly different note: does anyone know why Norwegian flags and buildings are being burnt aswell? Is it because the flags are similar?
Norway was the second country that had papers reprint the cartoons, as well they shared their embassy with Denamark. Chile also had their embassy in the same building, now that has got to suck.

Lesson learned; don't share shit with Denmark.
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