Palestine

[haku]

Originally Posted by sunwalk

It would be nice that you explain that to us for we understand better your vision of the best.

I don't think there is a best solution left, only a less worst one.

The best solution would have been the first map, it would have been to create a single state combining Palestine (the grayish area) and Jordan (the green area) with Jerusalem as capital, a single large state for both Jews and Arabs with equal rights and a single government.

An alternative would have been to create a federal state also combining Palestine and Jordan, with Palestine being a state with a majority of Jews and a government in Tel Aviv, Jordan being another state with a majority of Arabs and a government in Amman, and Jerusalem the federal capital. Both Jews and Arabs would have been citizen of the federal state though, free to settle and work in Palestine or Jordan as they wish.

But this is not what happened, instead it was decided to divide Palestine in two parts, which was totally stupid because impossible, this has caused the world and the region over half a century of unnecessary instability and thousands of people have died for nothing because of a stupid idea.

I don't have a "good" solution for the current situation, it's too far gone now, Palestinians have lost, it's over for them. Most palestinians live outside Palestine now (mostly in Jordan), and they will never come back. Dividing Palestine (or Jerusalem) never was, and never will be a viable option.

Here's what i think is going to happen in the future:

Israel will annex East Jerusalem and the West Bank, a few Palestinian Bantustans will be created inside the West Bank, those Bantustans will be surrounded by walls and officially "autonomous". Life conditions will become so bad in those Bantustans that Palestinians will continue to leave Palestine for exile.
When enough Palestinians will have left, Israel will annex the Bantustans. In the end, Palestine and Israel will be the same thing, except there won't be any Palestinians living in it, the state of Israel will cover 100% of the original Palestine.
Jordan will become the de facto New Palestine since almost all Palestinians will be living there.

Ultimately, we will be back to the original map.
The grayish area (formerly Palestine) having become Israel (100% Jewish) with Jerusalem as capital, and the green area (formerly Jordan) having become New Palestine (100% Arab).
A total ethnic separation.

[nath]

Thanks Haku...
But don't you have with the present territories (without Jordanie) a proposition of equal repartition? I mean with the bases of the present situation, please ?

[Kate]

Originally Posted by forre

Hey, ppl, no names calling here, okay?

What are you refering to? And just a note: It's "name-calling", without the "s" at the end of "name".

[haku]

Originally Posted by sunwalk

Thanks Haku...
But don't you have with the present territories (without Jordanie) a proposition of equal repartition? I mean with the bases of the present situation, please ?

Equal partition? There can no longer be an equal partition. Israel is 80% of the original Palestine, Gaza Strip and the West Bank are the remaining 20%... It's not equal at all. Israel will *never* let a part of Jerusalem to Palestinians, never, and at best Palestinians will get half of the West Bank. So that's what? About 10% of Palestine for the Palestinians? That's ridiculous.

Here's a map of where Palestinians are living now. Most of them live in exile, how are all those people suppose to live in 10% of their original land? They will never come back.

Like i said, Palestinians have lost, it's over for them, they've been screwed by history, they've lost their land and will never get it back.

Originally Posted by katbeidar

What are you refering to?

Me being called a racist out of nowhere.

[coolasfcuk]

Ok, please understand that I am giving you a link in a very un-biased manner, meaning I am not doing it to support any one side, I am simply doing it just so that we not only have arguments from the furthers, lets say left, but also from the furtherst right as well

haku, once again, I am putting it because you are super polarized (nothing personal again) ... its just that such polarized arguments arent good, so:

When I typed 'palestine israel history' in google for the hell of it, this is one of the first sites that came up:

http://www.masada2000.org/ - surelly the thing is super biased, might maybe even be considered offensive/disrespectful to someone here-or-there on that website - but it is an article polarized to the other side.

Now, if i am someone that know NOTHING about the subject, and im one of those 'type it in google and read' type of erudites - what do I believe

[forre]

haku, That's the biggest problem - I mean the historic aspect. Israelians claim that they lived there for centuries before and Jesus promised them the land, etc. It became Palestinian property much later. Both parties have the truth on their side. Now USA bought themselves and practically built the entire country to have the trusted access point in the Middle East, which is supplied with all modern military technology including nuclear heads. There's no solution in this conflict because the forces against Palestinians are too great. There'll be a war on all possible levels until some one will surrender and I don't see the States doing it.

If I am to predict the future, I'd say that Arabic countries don't have a chance as the world will gradually be devided into two big camps - Arabic countries vs literally, the rest of the world. Asia will go with the States as USA has already "bought" themselves in there. So we have a so called quartette (USA, Russia, EU and FN) who will work for peace in the Middle East. Peace in their understanding where everyone will try to get a better piece of the cake. It's all about the money and power. Don't look for any justice there, as justice is a question of morality and morality is not a constant definition, where money and power are more real.

Adds:
The war in Iraq is just the next step in the process of "spreading the democracy" in the world. More wars to come after. People will be protesting, journalists will write their chronicles and the governments of the powerful countries will continie doing their business.

[coolasfcuk]

forre,

and my last words are: ignorance, ignorance is the key to power and success

[haku]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

http://www.masada2000.org/

Great site and interesting read... "Arabs are a cancer that needs to be removed"... I can see where it's a counterpoint to my point. So you think i'm as left wing as those people are right wing... wow, ok.

That must be the way i come across since sunwalk also compared me to French communists in the "US Foreign Policy" thread...

So, what does that make me? A true French communist, i guess.

Lol, being considered "true French" and "left wing" is rather amusing for me since i'm really not a typical French and really not at all "left wing". Maybe sometime i'll post a few facts about me in the "Introduce Yourself" thread to show how typically French and left wing i am (not).

[nath]

Originally Posted by haku

That must be the way i come across since sunwalk also compared me to French communists in the "US Foreign Policy" thread...
So, what does that make me? A true French communist, i guess.
Lol, being considered "true French" and "left wing" is rather amusing for me since i'm really not a typical French and really not at all "left wing". Maybe sometime i'll post a few facts about

Haku , your sentence was enough "hard" , don't you think so ?

Originally Posted by haku

I'm not surprised that a US foreign minister said that everything was Arafat's fault and Israel was totally innocent. The US has always had a totally biased appoached to this conflict, Israel is good, Palestinians are evil, Israel want peace, Palestinians want war

That Bush was absolutely not competente and had no idea about the Middle-East problems and mentalities, I could absolutely admitt it ..but to generalize your sentence to ALL American governements of ALL the times, and even to generalize your sentence to all Americans in general, seems a little hard to me, I mean without concession or modulation (my point of view)...

And you know, the image of "true French" could have evolved a little....it's not necessary , always the French with his beret and his bread undeer arm...
But it isn't our problem here...

Originally Posted by haku

Equal partition? There can no longer be an equal partition. Israel is 80% of the original Palestine, Gaza Strip and the West Bank are the remaining 20%... It's not equal at all. Israel will *never* let a part of Jerusalem to Palestinians, never, and at best Palestinians will get half of the West Bank. So that's what? About 10% of Palestine for the Palestinians? That's ridiculous

So may be it's my fault, and i formulated badly my question; so I do it again in another way:
in an utopic world , You , Haku , you have to decide of the new repartition of the territories between Palestine and Israël (including Jerusalem): 1/so, you dispose from the present territories (without Jordanie) and 2/ you don't have to take care about "who is where"....Okay?...you have ONE territory and you have the choice to place the Palestininas and Israelians WHERE you want....
What would you do ?
Would you keep your previous proposition (WITHOUT Jordanie) in "mixing" arab and jewish peoples or woud you have another proposition?
If you keep "mixing" Arab and Jewish people , what would be the name of this country please ?
Just , i try to understand what would be your "ideal" repartition ...I'm serious.

Originally Posted by haku

Here's a map of where Palestinians are living now. Most of them live in exile, how are all those people suppose to live in 10% of their original land? They will never come back.

Are you sure this comment is very solid? Where was Jewish people before it arrives to Israël to become Israelians?

EDIT:Offtop:
Okay , my goal isn't to fight , and surely not to fight with you Pat. I was just exchanging ideas with you, I thought it could be interesting....
You seem hurt by what I've said so I apologize to have hurt you and I say "Bye Bye" to all those political threads... ..
If people just prefer to think there are just The bad and the Good in the world, it's their right...(I absolutely don't say that for you Pat...I think you are intelligent that 's why I was very surprised by your position in just one "direction").
I return to listen the Russian songs...

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by forre

haku, That's the biggest problem - I mean the historic aspect. Israelians claim that they lived there for centuries before and Jesus promised them the land, etc.

I think it was God's gift to Abraham.

Originally Posted by forre

If I am to predict the future, I'd say that Arabic countries don't have a chance as the world will gradually be devided into two big camps - Arabic countries vs literally, the rest of the world.

Perhaps. But Arafat had one weapon. He refused to surrender. No matter how much pressure was on him he refused to surrender. If next Palestinian leadership can do same it's different question.

[forre]

Originally Posted by luxxi

I think it was God's gift to Abraham

Yes, yes .. that doesn't change the situation though.

[ypsidan04]

(From the Sydney Morning Herald):

Dawn at the gates of heaven. "This is a tough one, Archangel," said St Peter, scrolling down the morning applications. "Do we let Yasser Arafat in?"

Gabriel shrugged. "Don't ask me. I do trumpets and hosannas. You do admissions. Coffee?"

It was going to be another one of those days. St Peter grimaced. These controversial requests for eternal paradise were enough to try the patience of a saint. Had been for millennia, especially with these so-called world leaders, when you had to decide whether the applicant was the revered father of his nation or a homicidal brute. The row over Napoleon Bonaparte had gone on for decades. Ho Chi Minh was still in purgatory, decision pending.

"Myself, I'm inclined to let Arafat in," said St Peter. "But I expect there'll be hell to pay. Abraham and Moses will go ballistic over in the Jewish section. They'll try to stop it at board level."

The Archangel sipped his coffee. Latte, no sugar. "You could do a deal with them," he said. "Offer to fast-track Ariel Sharon when he carks it. That can't be far off. What are you doing about the virgins?"

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"Virgins?"

"Arafat will want 72 virgins as a reward for martyrdom." Gabriel sniggered, less than angelically. "Have we got 72 virgins?"

"Lord knows. And if we do I don't suppose they'll exactly be queuing to hop into the tent with him. Omar Sharif he ain't. I'll have to refer that upwards."

Peter scowled again. Decisions, decisions. And more coming, by the look of it: a seraph fluttered into the office and dumped a computer printout on the desk. "VIP prayers," said the seraph. "St Paul's off sick today - he says can you sort them out for him. There's one from George Bush asking for a quick victory in Iraq."

The Archangel Gabriel slapped a thigh and chortled, spilling his coffee. Peter the fisherman threw back his head and laughed, a great rumbling convulsion that rattled the pearly gates on their foundations and, quite by accident, set off a small earthquake in Hokkaido.

"Tell George," he said, tears streaming down reddened cheeks, "tell George he got his election win last week. One miracle is enough."

Buoyed by his re-election and the successful capture of the Iraqi insurgent stronghold of Falafel, President George W. Shrub today foreshadowed a new war on Iran.

The President returned to Washington from a weekend break spent strangling chipmunks in Sciatica, North Carolina, and revealed to a White House news conference that plans to widen the war to Iran were well advanced.

"Those folks have got weapons of mass destruction, including an ongoing nuclear capability capacity acquisition program," he said. "As always, our intelligence is very clear on that.

"But freedom is on the march. We're gonna bring democracy to Iran just like we done for the good people of Iraq."

White House officials said the President had been initially reluctant to attack the hardline leadership in Tehran, in the mistaken belief that Iran was located somewhere north of Greece, which would have meant an unacceptable conflict on two fronts.

But the National Security Adviser, Dr Combination Fried Rice, and Defence Secretary Donald Rumskull had explained that Iran was actually next door to Iraq, the sources said. The war there could be expanded relatively cheaply, especially if it could be contracted out to the Israelis or perhaps Halliburton.

Meanwhile, the commander of the assault on Falafel, General Lucius K. Cheeseburger, has denied reports of heavy civilian casualties.

"We have had some collateral damage issues," he said. "But only with carefully targeted laser-guided ordnance. Folks don't mind so much being killed by precision weapons."

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by sunwalk

Offtop:
Okay , my goal isn't to fight , and surely not to fight with you Pat. I was just exchanging ideas with you, I thought it could be interesting....
You seem hurt by what I've said so I apologize to have hurt you and I say "Bye Bye" to all those political threads... ..
If people just prefer to think there are just The bad and the Good in the world, it's their right...(I absolutely don't say that for you Pat...I think you are intelligent that 's why I was very surprised by your position in just one "direction").
I return to listen the Russian songs...

That's exactly what I want to say (exept the listening to Russian songs )

for you, Pat. See you in the other threads

[simon]

On this theme, I read a couple of interesting articles over the weekend.

One by Harry Siegman in the New York Review of Books, explaining Sharon's plan to unilaterally withdraw from part of the Occupied Territories and create a Palestinian 'state' that is just a group of giant prisons for the Palestinians:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17591

The other is an article by David Aaronovich in the Observer, stating why the only option that both sides might be able to live with (the Israelis will never accept a binational one-state solution) is something like the two-state solution nearly agreed at Taba and set out in the Geneva Accord. He says that the man who might be able to make peace with the Israelis is Marwan Barghouti, the intifada leader currently in an Israeli jail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists...351029,00.html

Aaronovich says: 'Two-state solutions may be distressingly retro, but without one every year's colour will still be blood-red worn against organ-pink.'

[Khartoun2004]

I cannot express enough how glad I am that mother fcuker is finally dead. Now maybe the peace talks can actually move forward. He was totally the leader of Hamas if not literally, then at least in spirit.

[haku]

Originally Posted by sunwalk

You seem hurt by what I've said so I apologize to have hurt you

Awww, sunwalk, i hadn't seen you had added this off topic comment. There is really no need for you to apologize, you didn't hurt me, really. There's no problem.

This is a political debate, so of course people have different ideas, i have no problem with that. Anyway, we weren't really arguing here because i admit that Israel is going to win the conflict.

Originally Posted by sunwalk

in an utopic world

In a utopian world, Palestine would be a single laic state where Jews and Arabs can live together as equal citizens, but that won't happen, those people don't want to live in a laic state, they both want a theocratic state with only one ethnic group.

So the one state solution is impossible.

Dividing Palestine between Jews and Arabs is no longer possible either, because there isn't simply enough land left for Arabs. 10% maximum of the original Palestine could be given to Arabs to create a state, that's not enough, that's not viable, and as we all know, Israel will never give back annexed territories to Arabs.

So the two states solution is also impossible.

Of course, there will be a Palestinian "state" at some point, Israel needs it, but like i've said before it will be nothing more than "bantustans", those territories will be officially "independent", but in reality they won't.

Israel needs a Palestinian state because Israel has a big problem: the Arab-Israeli citizens (the "cancer" mentioned by the web site posted by coolasfcuk). The Arab-Israelis have much more children than the Jewish-Israelis, in a few generations there will be more Arab-Israelis than Jewish-Israelis, this is a situation that Israel can't and won't tolerate. This is why Israel needs a Palestinian state, once the Palestinian state exists, Israel will one day decree that since there is now an Arab state, there is no reason for Arab-Israelis to keep the Israeli citizenship and their right to vote in Israel. Israel will simply declare that Arab-Israelis are now citizens of the Palestinian state and will get rid of an annoying problem.

The Palestinian state/bantustan is of course only a transitional solution for Israel, in the long run it will disappear, once enough Palestinians will have fled the catastrophic living conditions that will inevitably exist in those territories.

Like i've said earlier, Palestinians have lost the conflict, they can choose between imprisonment, death, or exile, but they don't have any other options. That's why violence is going to continue, because a lot are going to choose death instead of imprisonment or exile.

[nath]

GAZA PULLOUT
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/me...out/index.html
Sharon has said He will make it and he did it. I'm enough surprised that it happens so quickly...even, of course if it's just a begining.
I never was a fan of Ariel Sharon but I have to admit that he had taken the risk to lose all chances to be elected again, and has acted in a very dangerous way about his image in relation with his own people....so i have to say...that it's the first time I see a CONCRETE EVOLUTION in the palestino-israelo conflict..so Respect Mr Sharon...and Respect to the PRESENT Palestinian Authority who has tried to controle the blaster men for this present accord won't be cancelled.

I'm sorry to come back to my first intuition , but it really feels as now than Mr Arafat isn't anymore at the head of the Palestinian Authority , the attemps and bombings seem more controlled to not cancell systematicaly the Peace Negociations as before....

Just hope the Palestinians will take a good care about the restitution of Gaza Band and will try to rebuilt a decent and correct life (I think than , even if they asked to destroy all the buildings, the Worl money Helps wiill be enough important to rebuilt correctly.....if this time they arrive to the good destination and aren't dropped in the private count of Mr.Arafat..)..
Just hope they won't let use Gaza as a Bombers Ghetto...

Really Hope it will work.

[freddie]

All this would happen a long time ago if Yitzhak Rabin wasn't assassinated. He was the only one who could get through to Arafat. All it took was some good will on both sides and he understood that. Then HIS OWN people killed him. Sounds awfully like the story of Jesus doesn't it?

That being said, Sharon really has balls to do this despite his whole goverment opposing his decision. Don't think he'll lose the elections because of this though - the majority of the voters is still on his side. 70% or so. The other 30% are extremists with no grasp on reality.

[haku]

So it's a sweeping victory for the Hamas in the Palestinian elections… Iran is ruled by Shia conservatives, the Shia Islamic party just won the elections in Iraq, and now the Hamas wins the elections in Palestine, anyone else see a pattern and a regional alliance emerging?

It's a sad irony because so many people who suported the war in Iraq were saying that once democracy and free elections would be held in the region, people would choose moderate parties that want peace… Yeah, right. In reality it's of course the opposite that has happened, people have put extremist parties in power.

Oh and Israeli soldiers must have been pissed by the results, they shot a 9 year old girl dead, that's gonna help.

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Amber

Oh and Israeli soldiers must have been pissed by the results, they shot a 9 year old girl dead, that's gonna help.

That's sick.

Anyway, can't say I'm surprised by all of this, but I'm sure they're gonna regret it. They're gonna regret it when lots of countries refuse to deal with them or help them out in anyway due to their connection with suicide bombing. How can someone take people like that seriously? Living in the UK I find it quite amazing how a bunch of people like this can be elected. But hey, I'm nieve.