Hurricane Katrina

[csargen]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

Like Greg said, taking a look at the statistics, the tsunami was worse (if I'm correct, but I don't see how this could be wrong), but then again people's lives aren't worth any more or less depending on what happened to you and how many. Both these are still tragedies.

Maybe true, but I have personally been affected by one of these disasters and it has affected much more than just the few states hit by that storm.. the entire country has been affected in various ways... Tulane University where I attended has students from all over the world, they have all been displaced from school and work and their homes around campus had all of their things in them... luckily this is not a bad as death, but this will change ours lives forever.

[volkotina]

First, let me say that I am not attempting to argue with anyone here. My tone is that of calm but concerned. But I just felt like I had to respond to a few things. Again, I am not looking to get into an argument, just wanting to point out some things I feel have not been considered.

I agree with freddie. This is a horrible thing that happened, of course, but people are going waaay out of their minds. I've heard people comparing it with the tsunami, and that's just disgusting. This can absolutely not compare to the tsunami I think. The tsunami was a disaster and this is too, but somehow this seems more important and a bigger tragedy. Also, didn't everyone see it coming? I mean, weren't there any warnings beforehand?

you know what...if i sound like a beyotch in this thread for my opinion then so be it...but i agree that these people dont' deserve a damn red cent [most of them].

You live in a place you KNOW will sink and this will happen to. Yet every time your place floods u just rebuild waiting for the next wave of disaster to hit? fucking MOVE u asshole. Its like refusing to abandon a sinking ship. Even the rats know to leave

On the point of living in an area that one knows is dangerous. Well, pretty much everywhere in the US as well as other parts of the world, natural disasters can happen. If it's not hurricanes/typhoons, it's earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, tsunamis, mudslides, volcanoes, droughts, forest fires, and the list goes on and on. Yes, New Orleans is below sea level. Yes, there should have been more done to protect the levees and make them stronger than to be able to survive a Level 3 hurricane. But in the face of tragedy, what is the point of assigning blame to those who have been devastated? I could argue (but I never would) that the victims of the tsunami should have not been living there. They live on islands out in the middle of the ocean...they have no or faulty warning systems for an event that is known to cause mass destruction and loss of lives. But do I feel that for one minute that any of it is their fault or they somehow hold part of the responsibility? Of course not.

As far as comparing tragedies...honestly, when in the midst of such great death and destruction, it truly is beyond me that people nitpick what is greater.

You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

Honestly, I realize that the US has stirred up a lot of negative feelings for itself, but to say this... To argue that all that the US has given is pollution and death is grossly wrong. Look throughout history with more of an opened mind and you will surely find more than one occasion that the US has done something to contribute to the betterment of the world. Also, there is no way this is a first for the US.

Yes, I know these are human beings and these are not the people who are the policy makers in America, but these are people are not helping themselves. They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now. But no, what they seem to be doing is going to the nearest Walmarts to find guns so they can go around terrorising the people who are actually trying to HELP THEM!

Anyway that's not the reason i refuse to help these people. I can't get over the mentality of the new orleans crowd in that they ambush hospitals with guns to steal medical supplies from the critically ill. They don't allow relief helicopters to land and deliver food and supplies, so they have to drop them from a height. Then they're heard complaining on the news that they get stuff thrown at them from planes like people in third world countries. Well ur kind of ACTING like those people what do you expect.

Firstly, many people who were still in New Orleans are poor and I do not mean kind of poor but heart achingly poor. Walk out? How could these people who are old, disabled, very young, pregnant mothers, or infants possibly walk out? And if those people could not get out, would you expect their families that love and care for them to just leave them? And to add to the problem of walking out, to where? Most of these people have their entire families living with them in New Orleans. Where do they go once they walk out of this city? Where is shelter for them? Are they just going to stay on the side of the road while a hurricane passes through? What most people don’t realize is that these people had no options. It was sink or swim.

Secondly, it is not the crowds of people who are creating such a havoc with rescue efforts. It’s smaller bands of vile people who are stealing guns, shooting at rescue workers, hurting those around them and taking disgusting advantage of a horrible situation. Most of the people there are just trying to survive another day. There have been many, many stories of people helping those around them even while they themselves are suffering. A woman on the I-10 bridge gave all of the water and food she had received from the convoys to the elderly, young, and ill. She is in the same situation as the rest, but ignored her own hunger and thirst to provide for those at even greater risk. There are plenty more of these stories and on the whole reflect the compassion of those who are stranded there.

I've never seen a city discintegrate so rapidly. Its like armageddon has hit them and the world is now chaos. When 9/11 hit, new york pretty much rallied TOGETHER to help each other. There was solidarity, the positive mob mentality. So u tell me…

I have seen several people make this analogy. The major difference here is that as horrible as September 11th was, once it ended…it ended. People were able to get in and help. There was no flood that was covering the city. The flood that has covered 89% of the city of New Orleans is the big issue here. It has trapped people. Left them without food and put them in perilous situations. It is an ongoing tragedy. Besides, there have been people rallying together as best they can in the face of such horrors. It may not be as obvious as it was after September 11th, but as I pointed out in a story above, plenty of people have banded together to care for one another.

Just want to clarify that I know a lot of fingers can be pointed at this or that. It is an easy thing to do. I, myself, feel that the US is entirely too reactionary when it comes to issues like this but way too proactive when it comes to other things. At the moment though, I feel that there will be plenty of time to argue what should have been done. Right now I just want to focus on what I can do presently.

One last thing, it is entirely your decision whether or not to give to a charity to help those affected. But just remember, if your issue is with the people of New Orleans, there are other cities in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama that have been devastated as well. Aid will also go to these places.

Oh, and if I am responding to statements made a bit ago….it has taken me quite a bit of time to write my reply. So apologies to anyone who may have said something I have.

ETA: It is easy to say what we all would have done. But I am sure there has been at least one time in each person's life that they have done something that wasn't the smartest. And when looking back, one thinks, "Boy, was I lucky!" Sometimes luck runs out.

[csargen]

Speaking of September 11, it is now common knowledge here that this hurricane is the worst disaster that the US has ever faced, maybe others have not been updated to this yet.

[thegurgi]

i dunno how we can speculate or even say which was the worst US disaster... Sept 11th was a tragedy because we had no clue it was going to happen... it's worse because of much it's cost in damage and lives but the events on Sept 11th have effected more people world wide than this.

[kishkash]

Originally Posted by csargen

Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...

are u kidding me?! u must be from america huh

[cirrus]

I don't know...

It's either about racism, poverty, pointing fingers, or finding someone to blame. It's ridiculous. New Orleans is mostly a very poor, black city that is built below sea level with nothing to protect it from flooding except some pretty shitty dikes. It seems like the last thing on everyone's mind is actually coming together and helping out. I think New Orleans will rebuild but as a poor city, I doubt it will get nearly as many funds as say New York, even though far more people have died in this hurricane. It's just a shame.

[freddie]

I agree with Volkotina about people being poor. I mean when you have a house you've probably saved all your life to own, a rusty old car... it's kinda hard to leave it behind knowing you'd never get enough money to start all over. At moments like this poeple tend to go down with their ship rather than jumping into the ocean full of insecurities.

Originally Posted by csargen
Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...

I know what you mean. You could also say America is like a gas-guzzling SUV, tearing down anything in sight, while other "drivers/nations" jealously look at them from their fuel-efficient and environment friendly Honda Civics.

*gets green with envy*

[Bitty2002]

You know, I almost want to cry. I may not be proud of some of the things my country has done...but the heartlessness that some of you have just displayed...and hypocrisy!

EDIT: to remove undeserved statement to Freddie.

These are people, humans. You heartless people. They aren’t just us citizens. They are the unfortunate. You say you don’t like what the us stands for. Well, you know what. These are the people the represent everything the US sucks at. Our poor, our hungry, our races that have fallen wayside. If you are so high and mighty, your ways so enlightened, prejudice and hate free, mistake free, THESE are the people you should want to embrace and protect.

To say that anyone one human deserves any harm to befall them because of your disagreement with their government…HOW DARE YOU!? HOW? How can you say this. You saying that shows you to be scourge of why this earth fucking sucks! You say that Bush is a retarded moron who is fucking up the world. I won’t argue. Well, guess what. It has taken how many days to get these people out. Maybe he’s fucking up here too. To say “we won’t help, they have money, they are a shitty country” as your excuse to scoff and turn your head on suffering HUMANS…when maybe they need you the most, because as you say, Bush sucks. Because we happen to be at the top of the totem pole, people who live here somehow deserve tragedy. Because I was born here, or my aunt, who happened to live in New Orleans, deserve to die, because you don’t like my countries policy? Are you fucking shitting me? I didn’t ask for my genetic material to mix and become one on this latitude and longitude. No one does.

So are you saying that any country where policy and culture is pathetic should be ignored? So what about countries that beat women and ignore it? Countries where corruption is obviously the policy? Etc. etc. I cold go on. Don’t tell me your country is so enlightened. Oh could I go through your histories and your present news and issues and expose all that you righteous bastards stand for. You know, I debated moving to another country, because mine seemed to be so hated. But thought, what’s the point? After talking to everyone internationally online, I’ve learned one thing. All countries fucking suck! The only difference is that the US is in the spotlight, on the top of the totem pole.

You say you all hate us, but you keep buying and relying on our shit, you hypocrites. The US is like pop music. Everyone bitches about it. Everyone says it sucks and it is stupid. And yet somehow, it manages to be one of the top industries, raking in billions. Those same grumblers are shelling out. You put us here just as you put Britney Spears on the charts. You made your bed now you lie in it.

And we all must remember how the US was founded. It was everything “enlightened” taken from all countries around the world. WE are YOU. These people are your people. So you hate the government that controls them…don’t hate the people who live under it. And to say the US has contributed nothing. I am sorry, but I beg to differ. We may be far from perfect, and we are, but we have given this world a philosophy of individual liberty. And to argue against that or to say that that wasn’t a good thing…is stupid.

So, this people were stupid, they should have left. Not everyone is so wise are you or has such forethought. Many people have been through this before, they thought they could again. Many people simply did not have the means. So we are the richest country? We still have extreme poverty, capitalism is a bitch. We reply so heavily on cars in the US that alternate means of transport are rare. ANY transportation costs money. You say, walk out. How far? Where do these people go then? Money for a hotel? Money for food? You know, if all you have and own in in four small walls, some people can’t let it out of their sights. Their entire livelihood depends on those few items. To walk away…to somewhere. Some people didn’t want to take the gamble. Some people, like everything, simply don’t think it could happen to them. And some people didn’t have fucking TV’s! They had 24 hours! And that isn’t even the point. Even if someone is stupid, brought it on themselves, do they deserve to suffer and die? Huh? Ask you perfect, enlightened humanitarian selves that!

And I am no patriot. I am speaking for man. And the heartlessness some of you have displayed in the face of suffering man. Fuck you, you disgraces. YOU make me lose faith in humanity. Ironic, no?

[forre]

Bitty2002 has a vew points here, so try to cool down. Try not to show your worse sides. Give us the best of you, ok?

I guess if US needs help, it will ask for it and there're resources to provide this help. Normally countries are good at helping if disaster happens.

[freddie]

Errr... I don't think I ever said they DESERVE anyhting like this, or that it isn't unfortunate that this happened to them. I'm even defending these people infront of those who say they should have moved from there. Anyway...

.. all I'm saying is that III won't give money for the relief effort, like I did for the Tsunamis or the Niger Famine, but not because I don't FEEL for the people who got hit, but because I think the US goverment has more than enough funds to handle the situation. I said NOTHING about the ideology or whatever. It's not even RELATED to this. It's just the fact that the country in question that was hit has enough money to help the relief effort all on their own. I'd say the same of France or Germany was hit. Those are all developed nations with well established infrastructure and releif-plans to handle the situations. All the viewpoints I might have towards the Bush administration are completely seperate issues from the fact these people need help and another fact that their goverment should have helped them by now.

Edit:
I looked back at my posts and I really don't see anywhere where I might have said anything that might triggered your response Bitty, since I was the one pointed out. I never said or implied anything which you expose in your post. I never said anything about the people deserving this tragedy either. No one deserves this.
Edit2:
Wait... you changed your post around a bit. Makes more sense now, yeah. Well... I explained my issue with funds. I just feel they have plenty to go around. Because they REALLY do. I'm sure what's happening right now isn't due to the lack of funds. They have my sympathies... no different than the tsunami victims... I just judged that those people who were living in near 3rd world countries wouldn't make it without international help, while I think New Orleans will.

[csargen]

I sympathize with your aunt Bitty...

I don't know what you mean by world wide Greg... There was NY and terrorists from other countries? How does that make it more world wide? NY has people from around the world, just as New Orleans does.

My college Tulane University in N.O. is ranked in the top 50 colleges in the WORLD...There are many international students who are now or were stranded in random US cities until the storm passed. They had homes around campus during school, those homes are now destroyed. New Orleans is known for being a VERY international place.

When the tsunami hit in the east, students at Tulane lost family in the area, my school responded by sending teams of people to help out in this disaster. We were very informed of that disasters extent simply from people at the school who CAME to study in New Orleans from those devestated areas...

These SAME students are now displaced throughout the US and are the ones in need now.They chose to live in New Orleans out of all the cities in the world for a reason. But now the rest of the world is not there?? It's ridiculous.. people's reactions are rooted in darkness.

You can be certain that no one anywhere, rich or poor, is safe from disaster and that the people here in the states DO take note of the world's reaction. America is loaded with money, and N.O. will be rebuilt quicker than anyone can imagine. Maybe this time, without so much of the darkness and crime that infected it before.

P.S. Lets not be Lyudi Invalidy.. I have a few friends from Russia who are now in Houston deciding whether they should go back home or try to find another college in the US.. Another friend of mine who has family in area that was hit by the tsunami in those dark times is now taking a fall semester at a college in NY...

[QueenBee]

Offtop:

droughts

Sorry for being non-English, but what's a drought?

[nath]

Originally Posted by marina

The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them

I absolutely agree with that .

Originally Posted by kishkash

the positive mob mentality.

About Mob Mentality, I wonder why this expression is never attribuated to all those African Leaders who are systematically disturning the huge money/subventions that USA and Europe give to rescue the african peoples......they prefer to see their own people dying because they keep the money in their pockets and scream " America doesn't give a sh*t about us (My God!...how am I speaking since I'm on tatysite ! )......they 'e right : it's a more mediatic, more fascionable.. !!!!!

Somebody asked me some times ago : "Why Africa is always so poor ?"......... ...just try to find a connection in looking into the systematical connection : their leaders/Corruption....

Sorry to be old fashion here....but I have more respect for the leaders of the States ...even if they have faults than for a lot of African leaders: because ...even if they kill...they have the decency to try to kill other peoples when African leaders.....sorry ....but have NO respect , NO decency for their own people....and have the speciallity to kill their own populations in priority!

[QueenBee]

Originally Posted by nath

even if they kill...they have the decency to try to kill other peoples when African leaders.....sorry ....but have NO respect , NO decency for their own people....and have the speciallity to kill their own populations in priority!

But, does it really matter *who* you kill? In my opinion, when it comes to killing it shouldn't be "our people" - "their people", because just because these people aren't part of your country, doesn't mean it's better to kill them than to kill your "own" people. The world is a big blob of dirt, rock and lava that has through time been split up in different pieces, but the humans, are humans.

[Bitty2002]

Originally Posted by freddie

Errr... I don't think I ever said they DESERVE anyhting like this, or that it isn't unfortunate that this happened to them. I'm even defending these people infront of those who say they should have moved from there. Anyway...

I am not saying you said all of those things above. I was responding to the general feel. But I do know how you feel about the US, and do know there was some underlying feelings there. I just didn't want to read ANYTHING remotely like what some of these people have said to come from your mouth. It hurt. At that moment, you were one of them. I was mad and disappointed Freddie, sorry. EDIT: all be honest, I misread you a bit. I was emotional, still am.

My main point is that people just don't realize that they are displaying everything they hate about the US in how they are acting. They think they can turn their noses up to US policy, because they are better than. I think it is laughable, that these people, THESE people above think THEY are better than. After reading what they have written I would think they were American.

People need to face the music, look at themselves in the mirror and realize they are just as pathetic and have NO RIGHT to stand so tall and high, until they deserve it.


Queenbee - A drought is when it hasn't rained in a very long time and earth begins to scorch and food can no longer grow. It can destory entire farming communities. And entire countries that rely on those communities for food.

[nath]

Originally Posted by QueenBee

But, does it really matter *who* you kill? In my opinion, when it comes to killing it shouldn't be "our people" - "their people", because just because these people aren't part of your country, doesn't mean it's better to kill them than to kill your "own" people. The world is a big blob of dirt, rock and lava that has through time been split up in different pieces, but the humans, are humans.

If you knew me a little more you'd know I use very often "black humour".....but indeed...there is a little difference....if you read on the newspapers "A woman has killed a children", you'd react by saying "Oh ! It's horrible!"....but if you 'd read "A woman has killed her own children"...you would find no words to express your emotion...

To resume...what I realy think is that a lot of people, instead of reading some news by this side and that side....should take the time to take a Good History Book (of course we can debate about what is a Good History Book.... ) to get a Global Vision about history throught the centuries and the different civilizations....cause I'm really worried to see how people become more and more ignorant about history in general.

[QueenBee]

Kanye West's speech [about the hurricane]:

"I hate the way they portray us in the media. We see a black family that says they're looting. We see a white family that says they're looking for food & you know it's been five days because most of the people are black & even for me to complain about I would be a hyprocrite because I try to turn away from the TV because it's too hard to watch. I've even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I'm calling my business manager right now to see what's the biggest amount that I can give. And just to imagine if I was down there, those are my people down there, so anybody out there that wants to do anything with the setup the way America is setup to help the poor, the black people, the less well off as slow as possible. I mean the Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize that a lot of the people that can help are at war right now fighting another way and they've given them permission to go down & shoot us."

At the end, he adds: "George Bush doesn't care about black people."
The look on Mike Myers' face is priceless.

---

KANYE WEST PISSES ME OFF.

Video:
http://s21.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...K1IY0ZNVBGV96A
http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...12HYPCJJSZW58F
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=03J3DUVJ
http://rapidshare.de/files/4664387/k...o_rant.qt.html

I got this from a community on LiveJournal, I haven't seen the video myself though (downloading).

And of course, it's already funny:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=8331709210

Nath, sorry to have not understood your post. I do understand what you mean about the difference of killing randomly and killing your own (I think the problem is here that leaders often don't seem to care about their own people... but that's a different story).

Queenbee - A drought is when it hasn't rained in a very long time and earth begins to scorch and food can no longer grow. It can destory entire farming communities. And entire countries that rely on those communities for food.

Ooooooh I get it now! I was trying to guess what it was, but I wasn't even close..
Thanks for the explanation

[csargen]

Kanye West: Not my friend...

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Bitty2002

I am not saying you said all of those things above. I was responding to the general feel. But I do know how you feel about the US, and do know there was some underlying feelings there. I just didn't want to read ANYTHING remotely like what some of these people have said to come from your mouth. It hurt. At that moment, you were one of them. I was mad and disappointed Freddie, sorry. EDIT: all be honest, I misread you a bit. I was emotional, still am.

Yeah but you see... those underlying feelings might they exist or not have absolutely NOTHING in common with this thing that happened. At least with me. It's a natural disaster, which is by default removed from any kind of politic agenda. When it comes to hurt and suffering people are people. No Americans, Europeans, Orientals or whatever. And I think most of the people contributing to this thread feel the same, you know? All they really criticized was the inability of people to retreat on time (I gave my explanation why they didn't anyway). No one said they deserve this cause they're american.

EDIT:

Kanye West... well... that was a bit rash. It probably has some more to do with the social status of these people, rather than race. There are many poor people living in these regions. If it is an issue, I don't think it's strickly a racial one.

[Bitty2002]

As for the racial issue... I honestly think this is a class issue more than a race issue. Where racism comes in is that due to racism, more black people are in poverty. But in this case you see so many black people because one, a lot of black people live in New Orleans, and two, the upper class white folk had enough money to spare to take the gamble and get out. (by gamble I mean, spend what little money you have on the chance that you could be hit hard). Those that were poor, were left.


Queenbee - not to speak for Nath, I'm sure she can herself. But to add my perspective. Now, like you said, killing is killing, no difference. I agree. However, in this case, many people are saying hateful things because deep down they hate the US and its policies. This is a governmental issue. Governments are set up to create protections for its people. It allows society to function. We see right now what happens when structure disappears, small numbers of people begin mayhem for many. It is a government's duty to protect, stabilize society. It is shameful when a government actually attacks its own people because it is going against its very nature and purpose. Her analogy- a mother's duty is to protect her children, for her to kill her own children is not only killing, but also a failure to one's duty. It is a double offense.