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Old 02-09-2005, 22:03   #1
madeldoe madeldoe is offline
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Hurricane Katrina

Engineers knew levees were limited

By Pete Carey

KNIGHT RIDDER

The levee system that protected New Orleans from hurricane-caused surges along Lake Pontchartrain was never designed to survive a storm the size of Hurricane Katrina, the Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday.

The levees were built to withstand only a Category 3 storm, something projections suggested would strike New Orleans only once every two or three centuries, the commander of the corps, Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, told reporters in a conference call.

Katrina was a Category 4 storm.

"Unfortunately, that occurred in this case," Strock said.

Strock said that the levee system's design was settled on a quarter of a century ago, before the current numerical system of classifying storms was in widespread use.

He said that studies had begun recently on strengthening the system to protect against Category 4 and 5 hurricanes but hadn't progressed very far.

Strock added that despite a May report by the corps' Louisiana district that a lack of federal funding had slowed construction of hurricane protection, nothing the corps could have done recently would have prevented Katrina from flooding New Orleans.

"The levee projects that failed were at full project design and were not really going to be improved," Strock said.

Strock's comments drew immediate criticism from flood-protection advocates, who said that the corps' May report was a call for action and a complaint about insufficient funding, and that no action took place.

"The corps knew, everybody knew, that the levees had limited capability,"
said Joseph Suhayda, a retired director of the Louisiana State University's Water Resources and Research Institute.

"Because of exercises and simulations, we knew that the consequences of overtopping (water coming over the levees) would be disastrous. People were playing with matches in the fireworks factory and it went off."

Suhayda, an expert in coastal oceanography, said, "the fact the levee failed is not according to design. If it was overtopped, it's because it was lower in that spot than other spots. The fact that it was only designed for a Category 3 meant it was going to get overtopped. I knew that. They knew that. There were limits."

Some critics Thursday questioned the usefulness of levees, saying that all of them fail eventually.

"There are lots of ways for levees to fail. Overtopping is just one of them," said Michael Lindell, of Texas A&M University's Hazard Reduction and Recovery Center. "There's a lot of smokescreen about 'low probabilities.' Low probabilities just means 'Takes a long time.'"

Strock said that stopping the flow of water over the levees has proved to be "a very challenging effort."

Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a study costing up to $12 million to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study isn't scheduled to get under way until 2006.

It was not clear why the study has taken so long to begin, though Congress has only provided in the range of $100,000 or $200,000 a year so far.

Al Naomi, senior project manager in the corps' New Orleans District, said it would cost as much as $2.5 billion to build such a system, which would likely include a massive system of gates to block the Gulf of Mexico from Lake Pontchartrain and additional levees.

If the project were fully funded and started immediately, Naomi said it could be completed in three to five years.

A project to build up the levees to withstand a Category 3 hurricane was launched in 1965 following Hurricane Betsy and was supposed to be completed in 10 years, but it remains incomplete because of a lack of funding.

In recent years, funding has dropped precipitously, which some officials attributed in part to the escalating costs of the Iraq war.

Funding for a drainage project in New Orleans went from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in the current fiscal year, while funding for such hurricane-protection projects as levees around Lake Pontchartrain declined from $10 million in 2001 to $5.7 million this year, according to figures provided by the office of Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La.

Funding for these projects has generally trended downward since at least the last years of the Clinton administration.

In Louisiana, Army Corps officials said they hoped that one break, in what's known as the 17th Street Canal, might be closed by the end of Thursday, but that a second break in the London Avenue canal is proving more intractable.

Short sections of the walls that protected the city from the waters of Lake Pontchartrain caved in under storm surges, including an area that recently had been strengthened.

Source: ContraCostaTimes.com



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Old 03-09-2005, 10:12   #2
madeldoe madeldoe is offline
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just saw george bush try to adress the situation..he said more "UH's" than actual words
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Old 03-09-2005, 14:22   #3
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This is the only disaster I won't donate money for. I gave money to UNICEF and Red Cross after the Tsunamis and famine in Niger, but not this time. It's not that I don't feel for people who've been left without anything. It's just that the US are rich as fuck. I can't understand how the wealthiest nation in the world does such a poor job at helping it's own. It's a disgrace really. :/
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Old 03-09-2005, 14:34   #4
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I agree with freddie. This is a horrible thing that happened, of course, but people are going waaay out of their minds. I've heard people comparing it with the tsunami, and that's just disgusting. This can absolutely not compare to the tsunami I think. The tsunami was a disaster and this is too, but somehow this seems more important and a bigger tragedy. Also, didn't everyone see it coming? I mean, weren't there any warnings beforehand?

I heard Bush speak also, and he just basically said what everyone wanted to hear.

USA is rich, I bet there will be no problem fixing this.
I hope everyone will be okay
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:18   #5
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you know what...if i sound like a beyotch in this thread for my opinion then so be it...but i agree that these people dont' deserve a damn red cent [most of them].

You live in a place you KNOW will sink and this will happen to. Yet every time your place floods u just rebuild waiting for the next wave of disaster to hit? fucking MOVE u asshole. Its like refusing to abandon a sinking ship. Even the rats know to leave

Anyway that's not the reason i refuse to help these people. I can't get over the mentality of the new orleans crowd in that they ambush hospitals with guns to steal medical supplies from the critically ill. They don't allow relief helicopters to land and deliver food and supplies, so they have to drop them from a height. Then they're heard complaining on the news that they get stuff thrown at them from planes like people in third world countries. Well ur kind of ACTING like those people what do you expect.

I've never seen a city discintegrate so rapidly. Its like armageddon has hit them and the world is now chaos. When 9/11 hit, new york pretty much rallied TOGETHER to help each other. There was solidarity, the positive mob mentality. So u tell me...
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:23   #6
marina marina is offline
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The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them. Anything untrue there? The things I've often heard are that people don't hate America or Americans, they hate their leaders. Well, their leaders aren't located in New Orleans , but the attitudes about helping there either mean people in the rest of the world don't know geography or they're full of crap about not hating them.
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:23   #7
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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yeah it's really sad to see what's happened to that city... and i could make some pretty racist statements about why (but i won't), but you have to notice which people were "left behind" ... so to speak.
The smart ones did leave and this is the result... looting and snipers? it's shameful

of course, you should hear some of the vanity of the northern states, all they care about is that most likely there won't be a Mardi Gras
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marina
The US gives, rarely receives, and the most of the world hates them
Completely true. I guess its a matter of guilt setting in for the US. They do CAUSE most of the damage, so of course they should hold the responsibility of cleaning up the shit they created.
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:37   #9
dare2dream28 dare2dream28 is offline
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marina is absolutely right...We Americans give all the freaken time, but do we recieve? Of course not. And we're still hated. Hell, it's sad & pathetic that we help other country's people more than our own. All of the National Guard that SHOULD be here in America to help out fellow AMERICANS like their job designates them for, are in freaken IRAQ helping out the Iraqi people. Go figure.

As an American, I can't believe what's happening in N.O. First off, I know that it's crazy right now, but damn, they could at least attempt to come together like people did in New York and help each other. They have really turned into animals down there...it really is survival of the fittest right now.

I honestly think it's pointless to rebuild that city...the damage is just too much and why bother? It's just going to get flooded again in a matter of time. Plus, all the pollution there from water, chemical plants, human/animal waste/decomposing bodies, & all the other industrial pollution is going to just make it unbearable anyway.

It's a shame. I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:41   #10
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dare2dream28 that's terrible about ur uncle i hope he is ok. And i agree with ur comments about the state of N.O it'd just become a toxic lake.

Ur statement i find funny about iraq. U don't think that coz america caused all the grief there they shouldn't stick around there sorting things out instead of just abandoning their responsibilities to help people that they can't help ANYWAY coz of snipers and looting?
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:49   #11
Rachel Rachel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2dream28
marina is absolutely right...We Americans give all the freaken time, but do we recieve? Of course not.
You get back what you give to the world. And seeing as all America has ever given is pollution and death to other countries, maybe they should experience it first hand for once.

Yes, I know these are human beings and these are not the people who are the policy makers in America, but these are people are not helping themselves. They live in a state they KNOW is below sea level and even though there was warning of a hurricane coming they just sat on their butts and didn't move. Yeah, they're poor, I know. But have they never heard of walking? There was a lot of advance warning for the hurricane, if they had actually started moving as soon as the warnings started to come maybe they would be in a safe place right now. But no, what they seem to be doing is going to the nearest Walmarts to find guns so they can go around terrorising the people who are actually trying to HELP THEM!


Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2dream28
First off, I know that it's crazy right now, but damn, they could at least attempt to come together like people did in New York and help each other. They have really turned into animals down there...it really is survival of the fittest right now.
Don't you think when people behave the way they are currently doing they deserve it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2dream28
I honestly think it's pointless to rebuild that city...the damage is just too much and why bother? It's just going to get flooded again in a matter of time. Plus, all the pollution there from water, chemical plants, human/animal waste/decomposing bodies, & all the other industrial pollution is going to just make it unbearable anyway.
Yeah, I agree with that - it'll just be a matter of time before the whole place is flooded again. The government needs to re-locate everyone. Expensive, I know, but American is supposed to be rich!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2dream28
It's a shame. I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.
Hey I hope he's ok!
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:57   #12
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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The sad thing about it is that N.O. had a good culture down there... it was a reknown city with a unique style and feel and all the traces of that city is gone, even with it it's own people... it's just amazing...

I think the whole thing about they should have gotten out because they know the city is under sea level... i wonder if the people in the netherlands and venice would leave in the complete risk that something would happen, i'm sure there would be people who'd stay. of course, they don't live with the risks of hurricanes)... none-the-less, i don't think it's a good rationale that they had advanced warning, in historical aspect people are stubborn especially about their homes. Besides, most of the people in this hurricane had already people been through a big hurricane before, no one was expecting this...
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Old 03-09-2005, 18:58   #13
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The fact that they didn't do shit when they got a warning about the hurricane is pretty stupid. I know I'd be running the fuck out of there as soon as possible. Still, natural catastrophes are always horrible, but we can only blame ourselves when we know of the risks.

Greg, I get your point also. Many have survived hurricanes before and some are even used to it, I guess it's better to be safe than sorry in these situations though. Never underestimate the power of mother nature...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dare2dream28
I just feel bad because my uncle lived there & we haven't heard from him since before Katrina hit so we have no idea where he is or if he's even alive.
I hope your uncle is okay (and still alive...)
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Old 03-09-2005, 19:39   #14
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Oy, I hope your uncle is okay, D2D.

All the comments in this thread remind me of one (yes, only one) comment taped by a journalist back in Mexico's great earthquake, in 1985. The city was close to destroyed, people were left without homes for over a year while rebuilding started, and many thought it was going to be useless to rebuild and start over (since like NO is on a hurricane route, Mexico is right smack on a tectonic plate ) because there'd be more quakes.

And this american person only ever commented to the journalist, "They had it coming." Made my blood boil the first time I heard it, but I swear I'm trying hard not to hold the same attitude towards this very disaster.

Queenie, I survived one hurricane back when I was a kid and I wish it on nobody. However, to have warnings several times before it began, and to sit on your ass waiting for shit to hit the fan is truly an irresponsible, lazy, not to mention DUMB attitude.
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:16   #15
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Yeah, it strikes me too that they simply didn't evacuate the city. But as I don't watch television, I've seen and heard very little about this tragedy, in fact it didn't touch me at all. Sorry
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:20   #16
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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i think the strange thing is that they DID evacuate the city... downtown N.O was evacuated..., they honestly weren't expecting the storm to go up the coast like it did...

I'm just realising something, we have a forum member from the area that was hit it's a good thing he moved...
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:21   #17
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Why do people live where there can be earthquakes? Why do people live where there can be bad weather? Why do people live on earth? Couldnt a comet hit it, how dangerous! Why do we live? To say people shouldn't live where they want to is just ridiculous... disaster will follow man whereever he goes.

As for the darkness present in New Orleans... yes it WAS a dark place, I have lived there for a year... I hear that the name Katrina means to Purify, dunno if that's true or not, but...

Also, America is like the man with the only moving car in a world of stalled cars... People will be jealous of course cause they are not moving. It doesn't make that man with the car bad, just lucky...

And also this disaster is on the level of the tsunami, you are not here to watch the local news constantly.. I live two hours from N.O. so do not speak of what you do not know.
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:24   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csargen
I hear that the name Katrina means to Purify.
They just start to name huricanes from A to Z by human names at the beginning of each ear on Earth. This one was number 11 major hurricaine and it got a code name on K.
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:25   #19
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csargen
And also this disaster is on the level of the tsunami, you are not here to watch the local news constantly.. I live two hours from N.O. so do not speak of what you do not know.
i dunno about that... this effected 4 states... in a concentrated area, the tsunami hit nearly 6 countries, countries with no way of dealing with it... the states have resourses to deal with this disaster, the tsunami hit areas didn't... they aren't comparable...
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Old 03-09-2005, 20:33   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csargeni
you are not here to watch the local news constantly..
Sadly, these days it doesn't really matter what you see on the local news, because they show you what they want you to see. In Iraq they showed people being murdered, decapitated and just awful torture, but I never heard anyone feeling sorry for their poor souls after seeing that, because no-one here actually saw it.

Like Greg said, taking a look at the statistics, the tsunami was worse (if I'm correct, but I don't see how this could be wrong), but then again people's lives aren't worth any more or less depending on what happened to you and how many. Both these are still tragedies.

The difference is that people actually knew about the hurricane beforehand...
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