Palestine

[freddie]

Wow. This is like a final nail in the coffin of the so called truce opportunity after Arafat died. It's all over now. A terrorist organization wining the elections... that's just wrong. A terrorist organization who's initial goal is annihilation of the jewish state, no less. Yeah... huge chance of the peace process continuing.

I think this victory is not as much hamas's achievement as it is fatah's incompetence and utter dellusion of the palestine people that they'll get their own country by banging their heads against a brick wall.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Maybe I'm an optimist but I totally see this as a good thing.
Now that Hamas has earned an officially recognized platform they no longer need to resort to violence to draw attention and resist the occupying forces of Israel. Rather than having the world listen to a car being blown up, Hamas can just announce their grievances and the world (Israel, at least) will be forced to listen. Sure they may be crazy fundamentalists to us but to Palestinians they are also providers of many social services like medicine and sanitation.

Not only that, but Hamas will have to take a more centrist position now that they are elected, or at least be relatively less extremist than what they are like now. They may not want to but they'll have to if they want to be elected again. They're going to be accountable for shit, they can't just hide behind the elusive banner of "Hamas." If they fail they'll be voted out.

These kind of organizations aren't just created out of a vacuum. Terrorism and religious extremism are the only channels of opposition in that part of the world only after a repressive regimes shuts down every other channel. Once you offer other means for parties to exist then can you expect peace.

And it isn't just in the Middle East, even Canada (of all places) had its little bout of violent extremism with Quebec Separatists only because of the Federal Government's repression of the French in the province. Once a party was born out of all of the chaos then peace ensued.

How can you confront a terrorist group when you barely know who is involved?
With this election, not only are people identified and brought into the spotlight but confrontation can take place in conference room rather than a battlefield... or blowing up an apartment complex to rid the leader while "accidently" killing everybody else who just so happened to live there as well.

But then again, I am an optimist.

[nath]

Originally Posted by nath

Just hope the Palestinians will take a good care about the restitution of Gaza Band and will try to rebuilt a decent and correct life (I think than , even if they asked to destroy all the buildings, the World money Helps Will be enough important to rebuilt correctly.....if this time they arrive to the good destination and aren't dropped in the private count of Mr.Arafat..)..
Just hope they won't let use Gaza as a Bombers Ghetto...

Really Hope it will work.

Originally Posted by Amber

It's a sad irony because so many people who supported the war in Iraq were saying that once democracy and free elections would be held in the region, people would choose moderate parties that want peace… Yeah, right. In reality it's of course the opposite that has happened, people have put extremist parties in power

Read in a better way my posts Amber...
I've written "I hope".....does it mean "I'm sure"?........ I hoped it for them, I wished it for them......but I never thought it will become truth....

Just because I'm not a dreamer, just because I don't think I have a such wrong perception of Arabic mentality as you should wish ...

Have you noticed how did they manifest their joy when territories were given back ? They took all their guns and shotted in the sky , everywhere during hours....
Of course it belongs to the tradition but it isn't an "optimistic" way to see the future.

I think IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY for them.....they didn't catch it....so now it's their problem!

Like in Iraq. They have made a choice. They have to assume the responsibility of their choice now.
What is important for me is the FACT THEY COULD VOTE FREELY, in a DEMOCRATIC WAY.
It's very important. They could do it under Saddam.
Now people vote as they feel and not as WE WISH.

I'm sorry to tell you that but you see the situation with a very occidental eye and state of mind.
They have an absolute different way of thinking.

All the values are different. Honor is more important than Democracy or even Life.

About Israël, I've deeply wished the best for them. If they have stayed in a peace process they would have got colossal subventions from Europe and even States.
They could have rebuilt a decent country.

They have made another choice. But they have made this choice in voting in a correct vote with no cheating (apparently).

What I deeply thought is just it will happen what has always happened before: I remind you how Israël has extended its territories: each time an accord was found and each time Israël gave back territories , Israël was attacked again!!! and replied and got more territories....it happened 3 times by the past...so why not a fourth time!

Just because they don't know to STOP.......instead to taking what is given and try to improve it and try to get more further by negotiations including respect of peace ...they want ALL, EVERYTHING....and prefer play to the terrorists and guerilleros....okay ...that's their choice......and they will cry again after that 's so unfair....and it will begin again.....vicious circle....

So I really think that Palestinians won't accept a such accord and will never try to stop to attentats/ terrorism acts and they will never stop cause they just want EVERYTHING , including the destruction of the Israël State.

So I guess the result will be a new offensive of Israël and the lost , for Palestinians, of Everything!

It's impossible to get a peaceful situation without concession. Like in real life, like in a couple. It's the same. If you want everything and just the things that you desire for you , you lose everything.

By the way, I've grown up in Morocco, I shared 6 years of my life with an Arabic Muslim person, I've a lot of Arabic Muslim friends, so I don't think I'm so blind or dumb or idiot in my perception of Arabic Muslim mentality.

If you just look at the situation just with European or even judeo-Christian eyes, I'm not sure you could get everything....so try to look at with Arabic mentality and you'll see that the chances of peace are very small and very far.

PS: Rachel , you think it's amazing compared to UK .....
Don't you think neither it's amazing that Imams could freely call to the Holly War and to murder in English mosques without having problems?
England is a huge refuge to this callers to murder and a great place to collect, in the mosques, huge money which is sent to buy Weapons to liberate Palestine.

I agree with PowerPuff Grrl,...this result is just an Officialisation of the Hamas which was ALWAYS there ,under Arafat....even if this last one officially denied it for diplomatic reasons.

[marina]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

They may not want to but they'll have to if they want to be elected again. They're going to be accountable for shit, they can't just hide behind the elusive banner of "Hamas." If they fail they'll be voted out.

Are you serious ? All terrorist acts will now be carried out by "splinter groups" or *nothing to do with hamas fractions* while the HAMAS leaders speak with forked tongue to gullible fools and they'll get 110% next elections....why ? because someone turns up twice , to be on the safe side, not to get yourself and family into the death trouble ! Fear.

[freddie]

They might become less extreme as they rise to power, since there's a matter of being in the spotlight not only with the people of Palestine but also the international community, which probably won't respond very kindly to talk about wiping-out Israelis. After all - fatah started out as a full-out terrotist group sponsoring guerrila attacks and whatnot, yet they still managed to mellow out in time. However my concern is how Israel of all people will be able to see them as partners in peace negotiations. The same party that threatens them with annihilation. It'd certainly be a huge bitter pill to swallow for them - and I wonder if they're capable of it (EVEN if Hamas tones down it's extremist views). Israeli minister of finance Ehud Olmert was frightningly determined yesterday in saying there will be no negotiations with Hamas, ever. What next? Complete diplomatic isolation? I hope not... but who knows.

[haku]

Originally Posted by nath

Read in a better way my posts Amber.

Ooook. I was actually talking of the politicians who tried to justify the invasion of the region by saying that after a good bombing and free elections, every country turns into a new Switzerland. I was not targetting anyone who posted in this thread as i did not reread it and did not remember by heart what was said a year ago, but whatever.

Originally Posted by nath

Just because they don't know to STOP.......instead to taking what is given and try to improve it and try to get more further by negotiations including respect of peace ...they want ALL, EVERYTHING....and prefer play to the terrorists and guerilleros....okay ...that's their choice......and they will cry again after that 's so unfair....and it will begin again.....vicious circle....

Yeah, but the land *was* Arab and was taken from them by force. People are blaming Arabs for not giving up *their* land, it's not a negociation when the terms are "Give us your land and leave", that's called conquest.

Originally Posted by nath

so try to look at with Arabic mentality and you'll see that the chances of peace are very small and very far.

I never said otherwise, i remember saying somewhere that Israel will continue to expand and colonize adjacent territories.

[ypsidan04]

Alright, I just got this email:

Last night the Palestinian movie "Paradise Now" won the Golden Globe award.
The movie shows the route that two young Palestinians take to become suicide
murderers, up until the minute they board a bus in Tel Aviv filled with
children. The movie looks professional. It was made with great attention to detail, but
it is extremely dangerous not only to the Middle East, but to the whole
world. My son Asaf, almost 17 years old, was a high school student in the eleventh
grade who loved computer science. One day after school he boarded a bus home,
as usual. Along the way, a suicide murderer from Hebron, 21 years old, a
computer science student at the Hebron Polytechnic, exploded on the bus. 17 people were killed, 9 of them school children aged 18 or less. My son Asaf was killed on spot. I watched the movie "Paradise Now" trying to understand what it is trying to say, what message it carries?

That the murderer is human?
He is not. (I would differ, but anyway)
That he has doubts?
He has none.
After all, he is willing to kill himself along with his victims
That the Israelis are to blame for this brutal killing?
Are the Israelis to blame for the Twin Towers in New York,
the night club in Indonesia
the hotel in Egypt
the shop in Turkey
the restaurant in Morocco or in Tunis
the hotel in Jordan
the underground in London
the train in Spain?
and the list goes on and on.

What makes this movie award-worthy?
Would the people that awarded this movie the Golden Globe do the same if the
movie was about young people from Saudi Arabia who learn how to fly airplanes
in the USA and then use Islamic rituals to prepare themselves for their holy
mission, crashing their airplanes into the Twin Towers in New York City?
Would this movie get an award then?

This movie tries to say that suicide murder is legitimate when you feel you
have exhausted all other means. But a suicide murderer who boards a bus kills
15 or 20 innocent people, so how about a suicide murderer who walks into a
city with a biological bomb and kills 10,000 people or 100,000 people?
Is that still legitimate?
Where does one draw the line?

I believe that the world should draw the line at one person. The killing of
even one person is not legitimate. My son was almost 17 years old, he loved
surfing, he loved loud music. Now he is gone because a suicide murderer
decided it's legitimate to blow himself up on a crowded bus.

Granting an award to this kind of movie gives the filmmakers a seal of
approval to hide behind. Now they can say that the world sees suicide bombing
as legitimate. By ignoring the film's message and the implications of this
message, those that chose to award this film a prize have become part of the
evil chain of terror and accomplices to the next suicide murders â?“ whether
they kill 17 people or 17,000 people.

Name: Yossi Zur

I did watch that award show, and I wasn't so much annoyed as to them winning, I was annoyed as to the award going to "Palestine". The award may as well have gone to Rumplestiltskinstan. Neither are on the map. If the producers were from Jordan, say Jordan. If they were from the West Bank or Gaza, then say West Bank or Gaza (even though neither of those are states either, but since they used Palestine, this would be no worse). The best International film should go to a country that actually exists. Or it should just go to a group of people with no country name attached. Despite what the Golden Globes says, there is no middle ground. It's not like I am against the formation of a Palestinian state from the current West Bank and Gaza, that would probably be a good thing. But until that time comes, if it comes, don't act like it exists when it doesn't.

Also, why would they give an award to a movie that has to do with terrorism in this day and age, in fact one that shows terrorism in at least a neutral light, no matter how well it was done?

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Considering the fact that Palestinians aren't allowed to have an army, I think it is quite understandable why they would go for terrorist tactics. Not acceptable to kill innocent people of course, but understandable. Their current image is also a creation of the West, when you start attacking a group of people with ruthless efficiency, they tend to get more dangerous.

And you, or the person who wrote the letter, shouldn't really lump Palestinian terrorist with Islamic extremists; two completely different things. The Palestinian fight is political, Palestinian Christians are involved too. When you have your home consistently bulldozed over and live in refugee conditions in your own land for over 35 years, you tend to get kinda pissed. That's a hell of a lot different than getting offended by the slightest difference from your own culture and instinctively yelling "Allah wu Akbar" and then blowing shit up. I think its important to show that distinction because although a lot of people don't agree with the suicide bombings, people can at least sympathize, or in my case empathize, with the fact that the Palestinian people live in constant humiliation under Israeli occupation. I think that reasoning can expalin why people like to refer to Palestine as a country. That and they are kind of turned off by that Israeli hubris you're displaying right now.

[haku]

Yesterday, the Israeli press has revealed that the colonization of the West Bank has been continuing steadily. "reveal" is a big word since everybody already knew it.

This map of the West Bank (it's from the UN so it's not biased) shows the extent of the colonization, the light and dark purplish colors indicating the areas colonized by Israel (and the map is from january so the colonized areas are larger now).

The colonization follows a logical and strategic pattern.
The Jordan valley is almost entirely colonized, creating a territorial continuity between the northern and southern parts of Israel, and isolating the Arabs within the West Bank from Jordan.
A corridor extends from East Jerusalem to the Jordan valley, cutting the Arab territories in two.
And another west-east corridor is being formed in the northern West Bank which will end up cutting the Arab territories in three.

So let's be realistic here, given the extent of the Israeli colonization in the West Bank, it's now become impossible to create a Palestinian state. You can't create a state with three small enclaves (4 if you count the tiny Gaza strip) not connected to each other, with no possible international exchange, with no access to water and energy… It's just not viable.

I can see how those three enclaves surrounded by walls will be declared 'autonomous' while the rest will be annexed to Israel in the near future, it's a clever plan, Israel will obtain territorial continuity along the Jordan while not gaining any more Arab citizens.
But that can only be a medium term solution, you can't keep people in three holes surrounded by walls forever, the living conditions in those enclaves will keep degrading.

I can now only see two options in the long run:
1. Israel annexes the entire West Bank and grants citizenship to everybody living there, including Arabs.
2. Israel annexes the entire West Bank and relocates Arabs outside of Israel.

[haku]

Just a couple of days after i made that post about Israel annexing the West Bank and be done with it, the Israeli government added a far-right party to its coalition, what a coincidence. The leader of this far-right party is now vice-prime-minister, his party supports among other things the relocation of Arabs outside of Israel, so the Israeli policy is obviously going to take a radical turn.

[haku]

US vetoes UN resolution on Gaza

Democrats or republicans, makes no difference.

[haku]

And the casualty figures reveal how very one-sided Gaza's conflict is.

In the past nine days alone around 80 Palestinians have been killed. And altogether, close to 400 have died - many of them civilians - since the Israeli army intensified operations in late June.

Over the same period, on the Israeli side, there have been three deaths. They were all soldiers, and one of them was killed accidentally in friendly fire.

BBC: Gazans debate response to killings

[haku]

Israel vows revenge for rockets

Hmmm, it's the first Israeli civilian dead in over a year, somehow i would have thought that the 19 Palestinian civilians killed last week by Israel (not to mention the 400 Palestinians killed in the last 3 months) would be a good enouh preemptive revenge… Exactly how many Palestinians have to die so 1 Israeli dead will be considered properly avenged?