Russia - General discussion

[Argos]

Originally Posted by Talyubittu

it is no longer an internal conflict; especially when the people living there are largely Russian citizens in percentage.

The people living in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, but not Russians. After the breakdown of the Sovietunion the people who lived outside the Russian Federation, but didn't get citizenship of the new country almost automatically got Russian passports. Matter of fact, the Ossetians didn't make any efforts to get the Georgian citizenship, so they got the Russian one quite unburocratically.

What should be noted is, that Russia has a mandate of the international community to keep the conflict parties apart and to protect the civil population. Therefore the invasion of Russian troops into S. Ossetia was completely according to international law. The war beyond the Ossetian borders is not.

Bush and Saakashvili played a silly game. While the Georgian president thought he could create clear situations inside the borders of Georgia with a surprise attack , the US were interested in how fast and accurate the new administration would react in such a situation and how good is Medvedev. Nobody thought that he would go farther than Putin ever was ready to go.

Whatever the outcome, nobody can really win. All involved parties will be in a more complicated situation with a lot more problems than before.

[Talyubittu]

Originally Posted by Argos

The people living in S. Ossetia are Russian citizens, but not Russians. After the breakdown of the Sovietunion the people who lived outside the Russian Federation, but didn't get citizenship of the new country almost automatically got Russian passports. Matter of fact, the Ossetians didn't make any efforts to get the Georgian citizenship, so they got the Russian one quite unburocratically.

What should be noted is, that Russia has a mandate of the international community to keep the conflict parties apart and to protect the civil population. Therefore the invasion of Russian troops into S. Ossetia was completely according to international law. The war beyond the Ossetian borders is not.

Bush and Saakashvili played a silly game. While the Georgian president thought he could create clear situations inside the borders of Georgia with a surprise attack , the US were interested in how fast and accurate the new administration would react in such a situation and how good is Medvedev. Nobody thought that he would go farther than Putin ever was ready to go.

Whatever the outcome, nobody can really win. All involved parties will be in a more complicated situation with a lot more problems than before.

[u2kforever]

Originally Posted by u2kforever

More human beings destorying theirself, it never ends. Can someone give me a the short version why this stupid war has started?

Also, any word on what the group tatu says about the war?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^anyone?

[Argos]

Originally Posted by u2kforever

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^anyone?

Hm, if it were so easy...

There were lots of tensiosn the last few weeks between Ossets and the Georgian army. A few days ago the Georgian president affirmed to the Russian side that he doesn't even think of attacking his own people, but hours later Georgian troops set the capital of South Ossetia under fire, which cost supposedly the lives of almost 1500 people (claim the Russians) and more than 30.000 Ossets fled northwards to Russia (again said the Russians, which is in no way plausible - a number between 5.000 and 10.000 would be more correct). This was the cause that Russian troops according to their international mandate invaded South Ossetia and fought the Georgian troops, and because they were so much in their element, didn't stop at the Ossetian boarders, but attacked Georgian military bases, infrastructure and even civil targets all around the Georgian country, which goes far beyond the mandate of the international community.

And this all is just a tiny bit of the whole story which would fill a whole encyclopedy to give at least an approximately correct picture of the situation in the country and it's surrounding.

[Life In Technicolor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhhyZjNApBg

Hi, this video is directed to an American public and the rest of civilized Western world. I am a Russian citizen, I live in United States for a long time, for over 10 years. I happened to be in Russia now and I caught all this "action" that's taking place in South Ossetia, a region in Georgia. I never posted on youtube, but I couldn't hold myself from doing it now. I had to do this.
My message to American public is meant as a wake up call. American and other Western media especially CNN is feeding you complete horse shit! Russia did not invade and did not attack Georgia. It was a response to a horrible war crime committed by Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili, this irresponsible man who just can't stand Russia, hates us, and will kiss America's and Europe's ass just to get a chance to join NATO and European Union. America has always supported Georgian "democracy" and I suspect actually that it was America who instigated Georgia to commit this crime.... on the first day of Olympics! How ironic is that? But please don't take this allegation too close heartedly, my point is not about whether or not U.S. government had any role in this, my point is to give you truth about what really happened Thursday night

So again, Russia did not invade or attack Georgia, as your media outlets are saying.

A brief geography and history lesson. South Ossetia is a very small region about 40 miles by 40 miles in the northern Georgia. It's population is around 70000 people. It borders with Russia. Today, many of the residents of South Ossetia are Russian citizens holding Russian passports, it's our people. South Ossetia had claimed independence from Georgia in 1992. Obviously it was never recognized by any international organizations. In 2006, they held an election where 99% of the voters supported independence from Georgia, and the turn out rate was 95%, it was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from the West. It still was not recognized by the world. As an analogy I would like to bring Kosovo situation, Serbian region in the south that was illegally snatched from Serbia and made into an independent country. Please look it up on Wikipedia and see how similar this situation is. How ironic is that America never supported Southern Ossetia same way it supported Kosovo. Obviously, it was made to show Russia how unfriendly the rest of the world is towards us.

Thursday night, Georgian military started an attack against South Ossetia. It was yesterday. They shelled the main city of Tshinkvali. They killed over a 1000 people. The excuse was to "restore the constitutional order in the region". BULLSHIT! This attack was an attempt to commit "ethnic cleansing", it was an act of genocide. They shelled civilian houses, schools, hospitals, without any warning. They also captured several villages near Tshinkvali. Reports say that they attempt to kill anyone of the Ossetian nationality. It was a pure act of Genocide. Wake up!

Russia couldn't watch this atrocity happening to its own citizens. We had no choice but to bring in our military into the region and protect our people. Whatever happens next the world needs to know, that the cause of this conflict is Georgia and its president. Before you accept what your media tells you, before you get fired up by McCains irresponsible allegations and comments, try remember all the lies that American media had always fed you, try to read news from other media outlets, not russian, but other parts of the world, other than U.S. or U.K.'s media.

America needs to wake up and stop doing what it's doing. Stop seeing an enemy in Russia. Stop using countries like Georgia, Ukraine, Poland, Latvia, Estonia who are basically acting like prostitutes of U.S. government in their public acts of hatred towards Russia.

And finally need to say, Mr. SSHAshvili that's how we like to call him. S.SH.A stands for U.S.A in Russian. Mr. SSHAshvili will pay for what happened yesterday
http://roman7927.livejournal.com/

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Argos

What should be noted is, that Russia has a mandate of the international community to keep the conflict parties apart and to protect the civil population. Therefore the invasion of Russian troops into S. Ossetia was completely according to international law. The war beyond the Ossetian borders is not.

That mandate doesn't give them any more right to invade a foreign country, let alone it's capital city, no more than UNMIK has the authority to bomb Belgrade.

Originally Posted by Тривими

My message to American public is meant as a wake up call. American and other Western media especially CNN is feeding you complete horse shit! Russia did not invade and did not attack Georgia. It was a response to a horrible war crime committed by Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili, this irresponsible man who just can't stand Russia, hates us, and will kiss America's and Europe's ass just to get a chance to join NATO and European Union...

Yeah those words just scream objective-unbiased-thinking don't they?

[Argos]

Originally Posted by freddie

That mandate doesn't give them any more right to invade a foreign country, let alone it's capital city, no more than UNMIK has the authority to bomb Belgrade.

The mandate is clearly for inside the borders of South Ossetia, even Bush confirmed it. No reason to pick on my words.

In the whole discussion I tried to make clear why things happen and not whether this or that party has a right for their acting, because that's completely uninteresting for me. International law gave the Russians a right which never should be given to an involved party, and on top of that, them ALONE. Is this right? Ridiculous. But that doesn't matter at all. Fact is, quite a lot of interest groups play a game in a region, which was always some sort of powder-keg. And if children play there with fire the outcome is predictable. Who is the bad guy, who is the good one? - complete BS.

[freddie]

It's plain as day to me. The person that infiltrates national borders (and we are NOT talking about Ossetia here, since they're bombing Tbilisi) will always by default be the bad guy. Of course the Americans, EU & NATO will naturally side with Georgia, since it's their ally, but directly connecting the US or even Bush with this mess is a very forced conclusion to make.

[Argos]

Originally Posted by freddie

Of course the Americans, EU & NATO will naturally side with Georgia

Bush yes, the others not so really. They are quite fed up with this maniac.

Originally Posted by freddie

...but directly connecting the US or even Bush with this mess is a very forced conclusion to make.

Saakashvili said a little bit too many words that Bush can disappear through the backdoor.

[u2kforever]

Originally Posted by Argos

Hm, if it were so easy...

There were lots of tensiosn the last few weeks between Ossets and the Georgian army. A few days ago the Georgian president affirmed to the Russian side that he doesn't even think of attacking his own people, but hours later Georgian troops set the capital of South Ossetia under fire, which cost supposedly the lives of almost 1500 people (claim the Russians) and more than 30.000 Ossets fled northwards to Russia (again said the Russians, which is in no way plausible - a number between 5.000 and 10.000 would be more correct). This was the cause that Russian troops according to their international mandate invaded South Ossetia and fought the Georgian troops, and because they were so much in their element, didn't stop at the Ossetian boarders, but attacked Georgian military bases, infrastructure and even civil targets all around the Georgian country, which goes far beyond the mandate of the international community.

And this all is just a tiny bit of the whole story which would fill a whole encyclopedy to give at least an approximately correct picture of the situation in the country and it's surrounding.

So people are fighting and dying for nothing, hmmmmm just like every war. People need to grow up and start loving one another , seriously......Human beings can't even learn and understand peace.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Argos

Bush yes, the others not so really. They are quite fed up with this maniac.

Yeah the EU really seems to be completely fed up with the man. With that annoying pro-western stance of his. Transforming a country from a Shevernadze-led pseudo-vassal (unofficially) Russian republic like Belarus, to a western style parliamentary democracy, with sweeping changes throughout the country in an attempt to move away from it's dependancy on Russia. I can totally understand how the west (aside from Bush of course, who loves all things evil) would absolutely despise this tyrant.

Originally Posted by Argos

Saakashvili said a little bit too many words that Bush can disappear through the backdoor.

Like what?

Originally Posted by u2kforever

So people are fighting and dying for nothing, hmmmmm just like every war. People need to grow up and start loving one another , seriously......Human beings can't even learn and understand peace.

Offtop:
Peace and understanding are utopic. It's in our nature to be territorial and combative. That's a phenomenon observed throughout the animal kingdom. When there are no enemies we have to invent them. Why do you think we have laws? The rule of law was put in place to restrain the beast that lies dormant inside all of us. Normality is only maintained through fear and intimidation... okay that sounds sort of grim, but it's not like I'm saying nothing good can come of humanity. Just trying to show that agressive inter-species conflicts are just as much a part of us as breathing.

[u2kforever]

Freddie relax lol, when i say humans, i am not talking about all. I am one person who does what he is suppose to do in life, i love everyone, i follow rules( GOD;s rules ) etc. If i can do it, so can the next person.

The good thing, not all humans are foolish, the bad news there are some who are foolish and those who are, cause destruction upon the earth. But hey people need to put down their guns and weapons, give each other a hug, love one another, play with kittens and eat some good food.

Thats the way life is suppose to be. All i know, throughout all these wars, i have separate myself away from it, i do not support wars, never will.

[Argos]

Originally Posted by freddie

Transforming a country from a Shevernadze-led pseudo-vassal (unofficially) Russian republic like Belarus

In your blind hatred against Russia you forgot completely THAT YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Georgia. For your information, although I know that it is completely fruitless, a quote from Wikipedia about Shevardnadze:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia:Eduard Shevardnadze

The war in the Russian republic of Chechnya on Georgia's northern border caused considerable friction with Russia, which accused Shevardnadze of harbouring Chechen guerrillas and supported Georgian separatists in apparent retaliation. Further friction was caused by Shevardnadze's close relationship with the United States, which saw him as a counterbalance to Russian influence in the strategic Transcaucasus region. Under Shevardnadze's strongly pro-Western administration, Georgia became a major recipient of U.S. foreign and military aid, signed a strategic partnership with NATO and declared an ambition to join both NATO and the European Union. Perhaps his greatest diplomatic coup was the securing of a $3 billion project to build a pipeline carrying oil from Azerbaijan to Turkey via Georgia.

Originally Posted by freddie

Like what?

It's not about quality, but quantity of his words, as I already hinted. There is no day where he doesn't tell the people what he has talked with Bush. His name is known in the whole region as USAshvili. Although everybody knows that he is a notorious liar it will be difficult for the Bush administration to deny their involvement, considering Mikhails many supposed quotes of Bush, his numerous American presidential consultants and the more than 1000 US military experts in the country.

Originally Posted by freddie

Peace and understanding are utopic. It's in our nature to be territorial and combative. That's a phenomenon observed throughout the animal kingdom. When there are no enemies we have to invent them. Why do you think we have laws? The rule of law was put in place to restrain the beast that lies dormant inside all of us. Normality is only maintained through fear and intimidation...

INSANITY UNMASKED!!!!

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Argos

In your blind hatred against Russia you forgot completely THAT YOU KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Georgia. For your information, although I know that it is completely fruitless, a quote from Wikipedia about Shevardnadze:

Shevernadze - a former ministry of foreign affair of the Soviet Union - was well known for his double agent role during the days of his rule. That - and his former close ties with Moscow were the ONLY reason he managed to keep Russians away. Unfortunately at a price of him becoming a semi-dictator. Never ever was he a puppet of the west though. Ed openly strived for closer ties with Moscow up to an extent until it wasn't strategicaly smart thing to do anymore; but he never went straight-out against it's mighty neighbour, keeping serious amounts of lobbying power in the Kremlin. Unlike Mr.Sakashvilli.

Originally Posted by Argos

It's not about quality, but quantity of his words, as I already hinted. There is no day where he doesn't tell the people what he has talked with Bush. His name is known in the whole region as USAshvili. Although everybody knows that he is a notorious liar it will be difficult for the Bush administration to deny their involvement, considering Mikhails many supposed quotes of Bush, his numerous American presidential consultants and the more than 1000 US military experts in the country.

That is pure conjecture. "Everyone knows he's a notorious liar" is something that'd be best uttered in a pub. There is absolutely no proff US has anything to do with this war. And I'd be a seriously dumb move if they did have anything to do with it. Nothing substantial to gain, yet so much to lose.



On a different note: I was watching CNN today. It was interesting to observe how the lying anti-russian western press still managed to show the interview between Putin and Medvedov as they had their military consultations; something that would never ever happen if the tables were turned and it was the Russians who had to show the other side of the story. I guess that's the slavic way. At least from 2000 onwards.

[thegurgi]

Originally Posted by freddie

Of course the Americans [sic] will naturally side with Georgia, since it's their ally, but directly connecting the US [sic] with this mess is a very forced conclusion to make.

When news came that Russia had bombed the Georgian capital i actually heard someone say on the metro "did you hear the russian's are bombing Atlanta?!... it's the cold war restarted!"

I know you guys are having a serious discussion, but reading freddie say "Americans - Georgia" ... i couldn't help but say what i heard this morning. This country's people could care less about this conflict and i'm sure before the fighting began 80 percent of the American people had no clue a country named "Georgia" existed.

I have mixed feelings about the current struggle in this region. I don't want to say much of anything because, like most americans, i'm not that current with Georgian/Russian relations... but the argument between freddie and argos has been really interesting and i thank you both for your candor.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by thegurgi

When news came that Russia had bombed the Georgian capital i actually heard someone say on the metro "did you hear the russian's are bombing Atlanta?!... it's the cold war restarted!"

Originally Posted by thegurgi

I know you guys are having a serious discussion, but reading freddie say "Americans - Georgia" ... i couldn't help but say what i heard this morning. This country's people could care less about this conflict and i'm sure before the fighting began 80 percent of the American people had no clue a country named "Georgia" existed.

It's unfortunate that the country's angicized name corelates to a US state. Not really sure where that comes from; we call it "Gruzija", while native georgians call their country "Sakartvelos".

[Argos]

Originally Posted by freddie

Shevernadze - a former ministry of foreign affair of the Soviet Union - was well known for his double agent role during the days of his rule. That - and his former close ties with Moscow were the ONLY reason he managed to keep Russians away. Unfortunately at a price of him becoming a semi-dictator. Never ever was he a puppet of the west though. Ed openly strived for closer ties with Moscow up to an extent until it wasn't strategicaly smart thing to do anymore; but he never went straight-out against it's mighty neighbour, keeping serious amounts of lobbying power in the Kremlin. Unlike Mr.Sakashvilli.

Your link is from a time immediately after the Russians have defeated his opponent and former president Gamsakhurdia (and probably killed). Your evaluation that Shevardnadze played a double game is on very weak grounds. He was a diplomatic nature, not a 'toro' like Saakashvili, but he made it clear from the beginning that his way was toward the west with a disentanglement of the grip of Russia. He just did it calmly and factually, step by step. The west turned against him because the corruption became more and more intolerable and all the money spent by the EU and USA somehow landed in the hands of his family and friends, not in the ambitious projects. You are the first person I ever heard that Shevardnadze was a vassal of Russia.

Originally Posted by freddie

That is pure conjecture. "Everyone knows he's a notorious liar" is something that'd be best uttered in a pub.

I would rather say that your comparing Russia's authorities with Hitler and calling Medvedev Putin's buttboy is perfectly fit for pub conversation!

Originally Posted by freddie

There is absolutely no proff US has anything to do with this war.

There is no need for a proof. People will believe it anyway, regardless whether Bush had something to do with the case or not, especially in the affected region.

Originally Posted by freddie

Nothing substantial to gain, yet so much to lose..

Exactly! Just another unpaid bill. As with every violent move in this region, it makes everything more complicated and success of negotiations more implausible.

Originally Posted by freddie

It's unfortunate that the country's angicized name corelates to a US state. Not really sure where that comes from; we call it "Gruzija", while native georgians call their country "Sakartvelos".

Why has the Georgian flag the George's cross?


Ok, answer!

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Argos

Your link is from a time immediately after the Russians have defeated his opponent and former president Gamsakhurdia (and probably killed). Your evaluation that Shevardnadze played a double game is on very weak grounds. He was a diplomatic nature, not a 'toro' like Saakashvili, but he made it clear from the beginning that his way was toward the west with a disentanglement of the grip of Russia. He just did it calmly and factually, step by step. The west turned against him because the corruption became more and more intolerable and all the money spent by the EU and USA somehow landed in the hands of his family and friends, not in the ambitious projects. You are the first person I ever heard that Shevardnadze was a vassal of Russia.]

For goodness sakes! He was the friggin' Ministry of foreign affairs in the Soviet Union! He knew exactly what he was doing and while he made superficial symbolic ties with the west the underpinnings were still based on the connections of old. I even watched a documentary on his double agent role in which he was claimed to be a personal friend of Boris Yeltsin and they'd have frequent undercover phone conversations regarding reciprocal moves. I'd reckon the same treatment applied to Putin later as well.

Originally Posted by Argos

I would rather say that your comparing Russia's authorities with Hitler and calling Medvedev Putin's buttboy is perfectly fit for pub conversation!

I was just exposing the banality of the situation, while you actually say stuff with enormous conviction; as if they were long proven without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt facts.

Originally Posted by Argos

There is no need for a proof. People will believe it anyway, regardless whether Bush had something to do with the case or not, especially in the affected region.

Precisely!

Originally Posted by Argos

Exactly! Just another unpaid bill. As with every violent move in this region, it makes everything more complicated and success of negotiations more implausible.

Yes... so again... why would USA have any motivation whatsoever to get involved in this crap?

Originally Posted by Argos

Why has the Georgian flag the George's cross?

Ok, answer!

That's interesting! Always pondered it had to be something to do with one George or another.

[Argos]

Originally Posted by freddie

He was the friggin' Ministry of foreign affairs in the Soviet Union!

And what...?

Originally Posted by freddie

He knew exactly what he was doing...

Oh, you could recognize such things?

Originally Posted by freddie

I even watched a documentary on his double agent role..

Imagine, I saw a documentary where they proved that the KGB killed John F. Kennedy and I saw a documentation which made no doubt that the moon landing of Apollo 11 was total fake, completely produced in the studio. Oh yes, I believe everything what TV puts in front of my nose.

Originally Posted by freddie

... in which he was claimed to be a personal friend of Boris Yeltsin...

Boris Yeltsin had many friends, Mikhail Gorbachev for example. Didn't impede him to give Misha the boot.

Originally Posted by freddie

...and they'd have frequent undercover phone conversations regarding reciprocal moves.

Oh yes, I too have regular cell-phone conversations with the voices I constantly am hearing in my ears...

Well, let's summarize - Shevardnadze loosens his country from Russia, rearms Georgia with an every year growing support from the USA, begins to build a pipeline with western money, which is totally against the interests of Russia and at night tells the Russian president all the secrets he heard from his western partners. --->
Ok, I have to go easy on my diaphragm, it already hurts.

Interesting that the USA, with all their CIA agents in Georgia (and Russia), supported Shevardnadze practically until the end, and the EU diplomats had hard work over months to convince them to abondon this guy and cooperate with the opposition. Oh yes, I forgot, Amis are stupid... ...And there goes reason down the river...

Originally Posted by freddie

...while you actually say stuff with enormous conviction; as if they were long proven without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt facts.

My choice is - believe the numerous diplomats who have repeatedly expressed their irritation (like Condi Rice, Steinmaier, Kouchner...) or believe that they all are liars and only USAshvili tells the truth.

Originally Posted by freddie

... so again... why would USA have any motivation whatsoever to get involved in this crap?

Geostrategically it's an absurdity, for stability and integrity of Georgia it makes no sense too. Testing Medvedev is by far not reason enough (considering the negative consequences), but there may be one reason - the American presidental election. The Republicans seem to be distinctly behind, the frictions in Georgia are definitely a support for Mackie's campaign, that's a clear home match against Obama.

Not that I have the firm opinion that Bush really has something to do with this, I'm more inclined that it's Saaki's own game, but we shouldn't exclude any possibility from consideration...

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Argos

And what...?

Think about it some more.

Originally Posted by Argos

Oh, you could recognize such things?

Well it's my (not so isolated) belief and pretty much common knowledge.

Originally Posted by Argos

Imagine, I saw a documentary where they proved that the KGB killed John F. Kennedy and I saw a documentation which made no doubt that the moon landing of Apollo 11 was total fake, completely produced in the studio. Oh yes, I believe everything what TV puts in front of my nose.

Yes, only stuff that comes from Russia, right?
The thing is... it wasn't some crazy conspiracy documentary made by people who made ridiculous films about Roswell & 9-11. It was done by our own on-the-field-reporters, who're still employed by our national tv. But whichever... this is a bit futile, I think. I can't enforce my sources on you as absolute truth and neither can you do the same to me. But this is my belief of what happened in Georgia till Shakashvilli took office.

Originally Posted by Argos

Boris Yeltsin had many friends, Mikhail Gorbachev for example. Didn't impede him to give Misha the boot.:

Indeed. Because he was useless to him after.

Originally Posted by Argos

Well, let's summarize - Shevardnadze loosens his country from Russia, rearms Georgia with an every year growing support from the USA, begins to build a pipeline with western money, which is totally against the interests of Russia and at night tells the Russian president all the secrets he heard from his western partners. --->
Ok, I have to go easy on my diaphragm, it already hurts..:

I'm glad you're seeing my side of things finally!

Originally Posted by Argos

Interesting that the USA, with all their CIA agents in Georgia (and Russia), supported Shevardnadze practically until the end, and the EU diplomats had hard work over months to convince them to abondon this guy and cooperate with the opposition. Oh yes, I forgot, Amis are stupid... ...And there goes reason down the river...

I'm sorry but that's just full-out wrong. The international community was very clear in criticizing apparent irregularities in the voting process during 03 elections, including the US. By that time it was apparent Sheverdnandze's accumulation of power had become too great to risk anything, and the Rose revolution would never, ever have gone through weren't it for the full blessing of the international community (US included). Not to mentiont the guy who succeeded Ed was an ACTUAL western symphatizer and more favourable to the US than Ed could ever be.

Originally Posted by Argos

My choice is - believe the numerous diplomats who have repeatedly expressed their irritation (like Condi Rice, Steinmaier, Kouchner...) or believe that they all are liars and only USAshvili tells the truth.

You're apparently selective reading. True Shakashvili had it's fair share of difficulties and not extremely smart moves as far as the seperatists are concerned, but US&EU politicians tend to acknowledge him as a breath of fresh air in that region's politics. Someone with no Soviet past whatsoever, someone who's been educated in the west and someone who actually understands the power of compromise and communication. I think

Originally Posted by Argos

Geostrategically it's an absurdity, for stability and integrity of Georgia it makes no sense too. Testing Medvedev is by far not reason enough (considering the negative consequences), but there may be one reason - the American presidental election. The Republicans seem to be distinctly behind, the frictions in Georgia are definitely a support for Mackie's campaign, that's a clear home match against Obama.

Georgia is no Iran. It's not nearly important enough to make much impact on US elections. And with an unpopular war on Iraq, public opinion not favouring an invasion on Iran and Americans having enough other things on their plate (the subprime crisis to start with), I think it's safe to say any sort of active role in this conflict is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by aRGOS

Not that I have the firm opinion that Bush really has something to do with this, I'm more inclined that it's Saaki's own game, but we shouldn't exclude any possibility from consideration...

What game would that be though? I mean seriously... it's a country that's absolutely tiny going against the military remains of what was once a superpower? No one would be foolish enough to fight the windmills like that; especially considering the fact western powers would never allow themselves to get actively involved in the conflict.


ETA: A makeshift ceasefire is currently in place, but both sides already report violations.