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Old 13-08-2008, 19:20   #141
Argos Argos is offline
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
.. it wasn't some crazy conspiracy documentary made by people who made ridiculous films about Roswell & 9-11. It was done by our own on-the-field-reporters, who're still employed by our national tv.
Honestly, they are still in their job, after this BS? Ok, not many altenatives in a small country. I so see them hiding under Eddie's bed when he called the Russian president at half past 1 o'clock!
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
I'm sorry but that's just full-out wrong. The international community was very clear in criticizing apparent irregularities in the voting process during 03 elections, including the US. By that time it was apparent Sheverdnandze's accumulation of power had become too great to risk anything, and the Rose revolution would never, ever have gone through weren't it for the full blessing of the international community (US included). Not to mentiont the guy who succeeded Ed was an ACTUAL western symphatizer and more favourable to the US than Ed could ever be.
a) I'm not talking about events immediately before, during and after the November elections, but the months before. As a military partner Shevardnadze was a very reliable one. In 2002 Georgia got about 55 Mio $ from the Foreign Military Financing Program, more than 10 times more than the year before (9/11 you know)
b) It wasn't accumulation of power, it was just plain unbearable corruption. Georgia at that time was one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
True Shakashvili had it's fair share of difficulties and not extremely smart moves...
Saaki is mentally disturbed, and this was written in a lot of W-E-S-T-E-R-N articles two years ago in the net, no reason for understatements.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
... but US&EU politicians tend to acknowledge him as a breath of fresh air in that region's politics. Someone with no Soviet past whatsoever, someone who's been educated in the west...
It was always the co-operation of Saaki, Zhvania and Burdzhanadze together which made this little wonder possible, which made Georgia's government reliable and capable of acting, not the president alone. But Zhvania died under very mysterious circumstances in Feb 2005, and Burdzhanadze threw the towel in April this year. The moderate forces in the government have gone, and now little Misha can't be stopped. Condi must be really furious, if we believe (NYT) that she has warned him from attacking at least two times this month.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
...and someone who actually understands the power of compromise and communication.
...and that's not exactly his virtue, or - it's exactly not his virtue (I'm really bad in English nowadays )!

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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
I think it's safe to say any sort of active role in this conflict is highly unlikely.
I can agree, but I would have sworn too that a man of the integrity of Colin Powell would never lie to the UN Security Council and present a bunch of fake proofs about Iraqi nuke weapons. Since then I don't exclude anything...
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
No one would be foolish enough to fight the windmills like that; especially considering the fact western powers would never allow themselves to get actively involved in the conflict.
You see, Misha did! But wait! No! It was one of his doctors, a psychologist and FSB double (or triple, whatever) agent, who hypnotized him: "Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...!" Yeah, that's it. There's no other possibility.
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Old 13-08-2008, 21:14   #142
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People of the world. You deceive! World mass media conduct propagation of a false information. Russia DID NOT ATTACK Georgia! 07.08.2008 at 22:00 Georgia has attacked South Ossetia. At 3:30 08.08.2008 tanks of the Georgian armies have entered into city Tskhinvali. Artillery bombardment all the day long proceeded, fights with use of tanks and heavy combat material, both against ossetic armies, and against peace inhabitants were conducted. 1400 civil people already were lost. The Russian peacemakers have arrived to South Ossetia in the evening 08.08.2008 for settlement of the conflict and prompting of the world in republic and protection of the Russian citizens living on territory of South Ossetia. Georgia has attacked South Ossetia on eve of Olympiad, it is top of cruelty and cynicism. Proofs and video-materials look on : http://www.1tvrus.com/ , http://www.1tv.ru/owa/win/ort6_main.main , http://www.rian.ru/ , http://www.vesti.ru/news , http://news.ntv.ru/ , http://www.ren-tv.com/ , http://www.newsru.com/ .We shall tell
all tell is not present to WAR!!!
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Old 14-08-2008, 08:10   #143
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I'll just answer to parts that aren't plain bickering. :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos View Post
a) I'm not talking about events immediately before, during and after the November elections, but the months before. As a military partner Shevardnadze was a very reliable one. In 2002 Georgia got about 55 Mio $ from the Foreign Military Financing Program, more than 10 times more than the year before (9/11 you know)
b) It wasn't accumulation of power, it was just plain unbearable corruption. Georgia at that time was one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
You were the one making references to Wikipedia articles, so read up the selective parts that don't agree with your assertions as well. Like the part where it's stated Americans eventually got tired of pouring money into a black hole.
You can't have "unbearable corruption" without your own people maintaining control over the whole whole political & social spectrum of the country. Just like Zimbabwe. Tripartite organization of the government is intended for that purpose exactly - different branches of the government controling each other. State-wide corruption can only be achieved once you've taken control of all three of these branches..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
Saaki is mentally disturbed, and this was written in a lot of W-E-S-T-E-R-N articles two years ago in the net, no reason for understatements.
Please show me links stating he's mentally disturbed. Even if you find three I can counter it with overwhelmingly favourable common-opinion articles about his reign so far. He might be ineffective in some areas, some of his reforms failed to meet their targets, but that could be said for any polititian in history. But he is definitely the lesser of two evil, and a wonderful counter-balance to Russia's oil-fueled apetites to become a superpower again.

Quote:
It was always the co-operation of Saaki, Zhvania and Burdzhanadze together which made this little wonder possible, which made Georgia's government reliable and capable of acting, not the president alone. But Zhvania died under very mysterious circumstances in Feb 2005, and Burdzhanadze threw the towel in April this year. The moderate forces in the government have gone, and now little Misha can't be stopped. Condi must be really furious, if we believe (NYT) that she has warned him from attacking at least two times this month.
I seriously don't know what you've been reading. On her visit Condolenzza Rice only expressed her concern regarding the separatist issues in the country, saying it has to be resolved with Russia, while still extending her - and administration's - full support of the government. USA being concerned over seperatist movements inside one of it's allies is really not that hard to understand though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
I can agree, but I would have sworn too that a man of the integrity of Colin Powell would never lie to the UN Security Council and present a bunch of fake proofs about Iraqi nuke weapons. Since then I don't exclude anything...
When he said it he actually believed it, but that's a seperate issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
You see, Misha did! But wait! No! It was one of his doctors, a psychologist and FSB double (or triple, whatever) agent, who hypnotized him: "Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...Destroy Tskhinvali...!" Yeah, that's it. There's no other possibility.
So... what ARE his motives then? Russian motives are clear to see, Ossetians just as well, but I don't see that Georgia would stand to gain by risking direct conflict with a military powerhouse like Russia.
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Old 14-08-2008, 10:58   #144
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
... Like the part where it's stated Americans eventually got tired of pouring money into a black hole.
I didn't know that your comprehension of the English language is sooo weak!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Eventually, even his American supporters grew tired of pouring money into an apparent black hole.
...means, others were getting much earlier tired, and that's exactly what you could read in comments from French and German sources at that time.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
You can't have "unbearable corruption" without your own people maintaining control over the whole whole political & social spectrum of the country.
Again the problem is not dictatorship per se, the US have and always had good relationships with a row of dictatorships, the cause of the abandonment of Eddie was, that the corruption blocked any development in the country, but the USA were the last ally who turned away from him. To tell me that this is wrong, is plainly ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
Please show me links...
Look for yourself. Do you really think that I would comb through the paper archives of a dozen newspapers all around the world, just to prove for you, what everybody else who ever followed the current history of Georgia has read already more than once?

What you can find about him in no time is for example, that he lowered down the age of full legal responsibility for crimes to 12 years and forced school children to visit jailhouses, where people with death penalty sentences were kept, just to show them where they will land if they became criminals. Drug tests for all people in administration jobs and the like. His numerous outbursts of fury for quite minor reasons and his regular panic attacks can't be so hard to find too, and that he is an egomaniac isn't a secret too, you have just to read!
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
I seriously don't know what you've been reading.
If you read what I wrote, you would know where I read it, from New York Times! An article about ambivalent messages from the Bush administration, telling different things in personal talks and in public speeches, which gave Saaki the impression that he would have unparted and far-reaching support whatever he does.

It is interesting to note that Burdzhanadze was called for a visit to the USA almost immediately after her decision to resign. A person who has no more influence in Georgia's politics was invited for talks by the president, the Secretary of State and by delegations of both Senate and House of Representatives. When she came home she announced to build up a think tank for the further development of the country (sponsored by the United States). This proves that the US don't want to lose this important moderate politician under any circumstances, even if she is just working extra parliamentary.

The US are completely aware that they can't continue their politics in Georgia with Saakashvili alone, too much obstinacy and unpredictibility, and all other politicians with 'weight' in this country have become lost the last few years mostly under strange circumstances. There are no alternatives inside the government party and no ones in the heavily splittered opposition, so there's no way around Saakashvili. The public support of the allies for him should not mislead, he is by far not the darling for the west.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
When he said it he actually believed it, but that's a seperate issue.
Overcredulous then?
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
So... what ARE his motives then?
There are no real motives, if we see it as a Caucasus problem alone. Noone could win anything from the war, and that was clear from the first moment.

Russia would lose the control over the renegades to the UNO forces, the latter would suffer the consequences of the war and their self-determination under the Russian protection was at least temporarily satisfying, this would be gone, if other parties interfere (not so much the population, but the leaders = war lords), the Georgians would lose completely the control over these regions and the NATO membership would be postponed for many years. The EU has invested much money in vain, the repair will cost more and more and their military involvement will be inevitable. The USA can't be interested in more control organs in the country, where they had almost a monopole, the problems aren't solved, the carefully built up bridges between Russia and USA (which are for the USA even more important than for Russia) are now at risk.

No, there seems to be no reproducible motives 'inside' the Caucasus problem and other ones are just wild speculations. The most probable explanation is, that the crisis was a self-runner of the conflict parties around the cities of Gori and Tskhinvali. What were just occasional shootings at the end of July became critical on Aug. 1st, when even the peacemaker troops began to shoot against each other. Then Saakashvili lost his nerves...

Last edited by Argos; 14-08-2008 at 11:13.
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Old 14-08-2008, 11:15   #145
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I'm not even bothering to read most of this thread anymore - thoroughly at least. The last page and a half have been nothing but fictional stories and poorly drawn conclusions responded to with blatant fact and competence. There is no need to discuss if everyone is going to use a different version of what should be the same history book.
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Old 14-08-2008, 11:39   #146
freddie freddie is offline
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It's funny how you're trying do discredit my sources, yet apparently celebrate articles that your viewpoint as the ultimate triumph of journalistic integrity.

During the Yeltsin days there was a lot more tension between the US and Georgia (Clinton expressed some far more bitter remarks than what you claim Condolenzza Rice, -who came to Georgia to reaffirm it's partnership with the country - than there were as the transition of power occured in the Kremlin, which indicates to me Ed had much stronger unofficial ties with Yeltsin than he did with Putin. But that's my take on the matter...

... unlike your take about Burdzhanadze's visit to the States which is pure conjecture. Yeah she was invited but only as a notable political figure in the region, not because they were trying to disassociate with or even shun Saakashvili.

And I'm not even going into that whole matter of "strange disappearances" of politicians, eventhough I know exactly what you're implying, but that's hardly worth a discussion.

Regarding the motives... c'mon. A few posts back you tried to invent American motives yet you don't see any Russian ones at all? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Think real hard... think why Russia could possibly have anything to gain by unsettling a pro-western government that risks having NATO alliance right at their doorstep. They've been pretty clear on this issue a while back when the question of Ukraine joining NATO arose. I think it came as no surprise when Russian representatives almost suffered a group-epileptic seizure at the prospect.
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Old 14-08-2008, 13:14   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie View Post
It's funny how you're trying do discredit my sources, yet apparently celebrate articles that your viewpoint as the ultimate triumph of journalistic integrity.
Only ridiculous conspiracy stories. In fact I give every source it's due weight, but give me the right to mistrust sources which are full of slobber against one party and miss any form of objectivity. Concerning celebrating blabla...funny, first you ask in which drain I have found the information, and when I name the source you speak of 'celebrating the triumph of jounalistic integrity'. I get the impression that it's not even the topic you are interested in.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
During the Yeltsin days there was a lot more tension between the US and Georgia
There were always tensions between USA and Georgia, sometimes more, sometimes less, but I don't have a tensionmeter to measure the amplitude exactly, if you have one, fine!
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
...indicates to me Ed had much stronger unofficial ties with Yeltsin than he did with Putin.
Of course, they were the same generation of politicians, worked together, had the same collegues and friends, at least for a considerable amount of time. That doesn't mean that they didn't go seperate ways, once Georgia was independent. Russia was disappointed that he looked for independency from Russia, the USA was disappointed that he didn't go far enough. My point of view, when both big players are disappointed then he was, at least with his ideas, not far from the right way (which doesn't prove that the results were in the right direction, which obviously completely failed).
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
... unlike your take about Burdzhanadze's visit to the States which is pure conjecture. Yeah she was invited but only as a notable political figure in the region, not because they were trying to disassociate with or even shun Saakashvili.
Do you intentionally twist my words or am I so unintelligable?
Quote:
...they can't continue their politics in Georgia with Saakashvili alone,...
...there's no way around Saakashvili...
...the US don't want to lose this important moderate politician (Burdzhanadze)...
Nothing more - nothing less!
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
Regarding the motives... c'mon. A few posts back you tried to invent American motives...
It was you, who demanded me finding a possible motive. I told you that there is no plausible one and that any motives not connected with the Caucasus problem are far fetched. Even so, I gave an example. That doesn't mean I give it some seriousness. Concerning Russia's possible gain: it's the same as with the USA.There IS nothing to gain on a violent basis. Noone in the Kremlin nor in the White House has the illusion that he can be a winner in a clash in the Caucasus.

Infact the best Russian position was the status quo before the outbreak of the war. Keeping constant tension in the region, sometimes more, sometimes less, but cause nothing, that could change the whole situation. This weakens Georgia, makes the energy projects of EU-USA complicated and laborious and deters NATO to pick up Georgia in their alliance. To get rid of a western friendly government is out of question for Russia, they don't have supporters in Georgia, and the western countries and interest groups are already way to much involved in the whole process of modernising Georgia. The train has departed long time ago. Even dreaming about it would mean that the Russians have totally lost their reason.
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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
They've been pretty clear on this issue a while back when the question of Ukraine joining NATO arose.
Ukraine is distinctly different. Here they have still much support from population and political structures. Russians see at least a chance for turning back the wheel of time, but as a matter of fact (well, you can prove the opposite, if you like), the west has much more to offer than the half totalitarian neighbour, who has never seen the other CIS nations at their own eye level. It may take longer, but it's unavoidable. Ukraine will be part of the western community, and there is no way Russia can stop this.
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Old 14-08-2008, 14:11   #148
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Originally Posted by Argos View Post
Only ridiculous conspiracy stories. In fact I give every source it's due weight, but give me the right to mistrust sources which are full of slobber against one party and miss any form of objectivity. Concerning celebrating blabla...funny, first you ask in which drain I have found the information, and when I name the source you speak of 'celebrating the triumph of jounalistic integrity'. I get the impression that it's not even the topic you are interested in.
It is. And the only article you've quoted was the NYT one, to which I could post you numerous others, not to mention official press releases from both countries (though these might be somewhat biased, but together they offer a rounded view).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
Do you intentionally twist my words or am I so unintelligable?

Nothing more - nothing less!
You're isolating your statements, what you really said was "The US are completely aware that they can't continue their politics in Georgia with Saakashvili alone, too much obstinacy and unpredictibility", which IS pure speculation, since official Washington always held Saakashvili in high regards and considered him a key factor in the stability of the region, rather than a destabilizing factor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
It was you, who demanded me finding a possible motive. I told you that there is no plausible one and that any motives not connected with the Caucasus problem are far fetched. Even so, I gave an example. That doesn't mean I give it some seriousness. Concerning Russia's possible gain: it's the same as with the USA.There IS nothing to gain on a violent basis. Noone in the Kremlin nor in the White House has the illusion that he can be a winner in a clash in the Caucasus.

Infact the best Russian position was the status quo before the outbreak of the war. Keeping constant tension in the region, sometimes more, sometimes less, but cause nothing, that could change the whole situation. This weakens Georgia, makes the energy projects of EU-USA complicated and laborious and deters NATO to pick up Georgia in their alliance. To get rid of a western friendly government is out of question for Russia, they don't have supporters in Georgia, and the western countries and interest groups are already way to much involved in the whole process of modernising Georgia. The train has departed long time ago. Even dreaming about it would mean that the Russians have totally lost their reason.
Well... everything you've said here is your opinion. And I've offered you mine above as well. I don't think status quo would weaken Georgia in the slightest nor would it deter NATO from wanting it as a very useful ally. Even as Kosovo was in the process of gaining independence Russia was very adamant about Ossetia & Abhazia following suit, almost to a point where the rhetoric bordered on "You want Kosovo, then accept Ossetia & Abhazia as intependent countries as well." It's plain as day to me that Russia will do everything in it's power for these two regions gain a de iure independence from Georgia. Why? See teh NATO argument above. Once you have a chance to hack of a significant chunk of a teritory that will sooner or later join a competitive army alliance it's only natural to grab the opportunity with both hands as it slowly presents itself. Also it's very interesting how Russia only started gathering speed in developing stronger ties with both separatist fractions after Ed stepped down. Not that they weren't pressing for it before, but only after the elections when Georgia went on a straight-out pro-western path, did it become "a project" for the Russians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
Ukraine is distinctly different. Here they have still much support from population and political structures. Russians see at least a chance for turning back the wheel of time, but as a matter of fact (well, you can prove the opposite, if you like), the west has much more to offer than the half totalitarian neighbour, who has never seen the other CIS nations at their own eye level. It may take longer, but it's unavoidable. Ukraine will be part of the western community, and there is no way Russia can stop this.
No doubt Ukraine is different and I also agree it's inevitably headed towards Euro-Atlantic alliances, but my point was Russians tend to get very edgy when you mention future NATO members that border Russia and quite understanably so, since a wannabe superpower can't afford to have other army alliances building bases 2 kilometres away from it's borders.It already lost Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia, The Czech Republic, Poland, East Germany and the Baltic countries (all of which were once a pivotal factor in ensuring it's influence of intimidation on western Europe) to the other side and now it's absolutely vital for them to regain/maintain control over as much populace as possible. However I think sooner or later Russia will have to realize it's not the almighty super-power it once was; nor can it forcefully influence politics of it's former republics and satellite states. Medvedov with his firm stance on the Rule of Law was my great hope until recently. Although I'm still willing to give him a chance in case he's willing to free himself of the shackles Putin placed him in.
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Old 15-08-2008, 13:05   #149
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Another related development:

Ukraine imposses a decree restricting the Russian Black Sea fleet, after Victor Yushchenko returned from a mass-raly in Georgia supporting Saakashvili. It just further underlines the clear and present danger a loose coalition of pro-western ex Soviet republics can pose to Russian ambitions of regaining the status of a reemerging superpower.

Also on that note Poland and US sign the missile shield agreement. A similar deal has already been put in place with Czech Republic. I personaly don't agree with these deals involving the US building missile shields on EU territory, but it's also a sign of the times and another hint why Russia would be so adamant trying to keep as much ex-Soviet territory pro-Russian as possible.
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Old 15-08-2008, 21:03   #150
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American Citizens Caught in Georgia During the Attack Speak The Truth. Watch the Reaction of FOX:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia
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Old 15-08-2008, 21:15   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Тривими View Post
American Citizens Caught in Georgia During the Attack Speak The Truth. Watch the Reaction of FOX:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ 12 Year Old Girl Tells the Truth about Georgia
Looks like these Ossetian slavics (Russians?) were extremely eager to put out a certain message weren't they? Now lets hear some interviews with people that have -vili at the end on their surnames rather than -ova or -ski. I bet you'd hear a diametrically different story *hinthint*

ETA: A very interesting, (though slightly biased) article on the popular emergence of global totalitarism / panslavism and why aggressive American post 9/11 politics has been a big contributor to it's rise.
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Last edited by freddie; 15-08-2008 at 21:33.
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Old 15-08-2008, 21:42   #152
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Looks like these Ossetian slavics (Russians?) were extremely eager to put out a certain message weren't they? Now lets hear some interviews with people that have -vili at the end on their surnames rather than -ova or -ski. I bet you'd hear a diametrically different story *hinthint*

ETA: A very interesting, (though slightly biased) article on the popular emergence of global totalitarism / panslavism and why aggressive American post 9/11 politics has been a big contributor to it's rise.
...and a look at the users personal youtube page...slightly what?
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Old 15-08-2008, 22:11   #153
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...and a look at the users personal youtube page...slightly what?
Yet he wasn't the one who made the video. The guy simply posted this video on youtube cause he likes what it said, just like Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname posted the link which he apparently liked. But that doesn't say anything about the content itself...

It's obviously an American documentary, highlighting an interview with Eric Margolis - and he certainly seems well ballanced; also criticizing not only Putin's Russia but also the USA.
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Old 15-08-2008, 22:25   #154
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Yet he wasn't the one who made the video. The guy simply posted this video on youtube cause he likes what it said, just like Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname posted the link which he apparently liked. But that doesn't say anything about the content itself...

It's obviously an American documentary, highlighting an interview with Eric Margolis - and he certainly seems well ballanced; also criticizing not only Putin's Russia but also the USA.
I know, I'm regularly looking at real news, which by the way is one of the good sources. I just wanted to show, how much heated all the discussion is and how fussy you have to be with the information and the providers of information at the moment.

About your quote about slavic names above: Kokoeva is a typical name in the Caucasus, just russified name, and Tedeeva is russified too. I know one linguist (who wrote about comparison of Ossetian and Georgian language) born in Tbilisi with the same name (in Georgian Tedety), again just russified, and Korewiski shouts for an explanation offside the slavic idiom.
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Old 15-08-2008, 22:41   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos View Post
I know, I'm regularly looking at real news, which by the way is one of the good sources. I just wanted to show, how much heated all the discussion is and how fussy you have to be with the information and the providers of information at the moment.
Don't have to be fussy, just look at many different sources and that's it. I sw loads of vids with blood-covered Georgians claiming how Russian troops beat them senselessly despite it being clear they were civilians and on the other hand I've also seen Ossetian sources claiming how Georgian army started shelling their homes with no prior provocation. People will say what their predetermined ideology tells them, that's the key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos
About your quote about slavic names above: Kokoeva is a typical name in the Caucasus, just russified name, and Tedeeva is russified too. I know one linguist (who wrote about comparison of Ossetian and Georgian language) born in Tbilisi with the same name (in Georgian Tedety), again just russified, and Korewiski shouts for an explanation offside the slavic idiom.
I don't know enough about surnames to discuss this seriously, but if these surnames were infact Russified that even further proves her pro-Russian bias; i.e. Russification was done for some reason (pointing that this little girl is not really a Georgian but rather either a relative of Ossetians who willingly took Russian citizenship). I was just pointing at her obvious pro-Russian bias, not her actual ethnic origins (whatever they may be).

And that exactly was my point. The bias! Anyone can spew a whole shit-load of articles and documentaries that'll support their (sometimes even radical) ideologies. Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname did it. So did Mr. People-of-the-world! An inside micro-view of the Russian-propaganda-machine hard at work. On a macro level it looks pretty much the same except more pronounced. And then you have equally biased people on the other side drawing stupid hitler moustaches under Putin's nose, claiming Russia's building a secret missile defense system in Cuba. They're all silly. That's why I always say it's great to build one's opinions based on a whole multitude of factors and sources.
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Old 15-08-2008, 22:55   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie View Post
I don't know enough about surnames to discuss this seriously, but if these surnames were infact Russified that even further proves her pro-Russian bias; i.e. Russification was done for some reason (pointing that this little girl is not really a Georgian but rather either a relative of Ossetians who willingly took Russian citizenship). I was just pointing at her obvious pro-Russian bias, not her actual ethnic origins (whatever they may be).
You have the same russification in Central Asia, Kazakhstan and the North Caucasus. Most russification goes back to the Stalin era. And of course, if she is an Ossetian, and we know 90 % have a Russian passport, then she might not be Georgia friendly, but to allege that she is dishonest, based on her ethnicity, is strange..."All Ossetians are liars!"
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Old 15-08-2008, 23:26   #157
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After several days of silence, during which he was criticized for not taking a stand, President Klaus made his views clear in an interview for Czech Radio:
“Once again people are closing their eyes to the reality – and creating myths. I did not make a strong statement because I refuse to accept this widespread, simplified interpretation which paints the Georgians as the victims and the Russians as the villains. That is a gross oversimplification of the situation and I would have to write a lengthy article to explain why I do not share this view”
Mr. Klaus said further that in 1968 Czechoslovakia did not attack Subcarpathian Ruthenia and in his view the pro-reform Czechoslovak leader Alexander Dubček did not resemble President Saakashvili in word or deed.
The Czech head of state who strongly advised caution over the matter of acknowledging Kosovo’s independence said that the situation in Georgia had been crucially influenced by the separation of Kosovo from Serbia in February of this year, and that with the separation of Kosovo, Russia had obtained a strong justification for its action. He said he did not share the view of Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states that Georgia should be given entry to NATO to prevent further attacks from Russia. Mr. Klaus indicated that this would only further aggravate an already complicated situation.
http://www.radio.cz/en/article/107261
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Old 16-08-2008, 01:32   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos View Post
You have the same russification in Central Asia, Kazakhstan and the North Caucasus. Most russification goes back to the Stalin era. And of course, if she is an Ossetian, and we know 90 % have a Russian passport, then she might not be Georgia friendly, but to allege that she is dishonest, based on her ethnicity, is strange..."All Ossetians are liars!"
No that's taking it too far. I'd put it more like: all Ossetians are biased. Which they ARE, no matter how you turn it. It's only natural. And when you see religious, pointed proclamations like this, it's not hard to find it a bit fishy. I'm sure you'd find equally biased reports on the other side, but that's my point.

This is from the same site as Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname's article. Basically confirms what I've said about Russian feelings towards NATO expansion and it's connection to the present crisis. Veronika Kuchynova Smigolova and I think alike. However I do agree with president Klaus on the subject of Kosovo independence complicating things in Georgia. It does give Ossetia & Abhazia an internationally justified discussion right on this topic, but no way in hell does it give Russia justification to do ANYTHING let alone invade another country and bomb it's capital.
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Last edited by freddie; 16-08-2008 at 01:46.
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Old 16-08-2008, 15:30   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie View Post
I'd put it more like: all Ossetians are biased....I'm sure you'd find equally biased reports on the other side, but that's my point.
I think we all are biased in one or another way. But I think we should take information of any kind as they are, but disregard such reports without informational content with solely rants in one direction.

Regarding this clip with 12 year old Kokoeva: It was interesting to see how the TV station tries to manipulate the viewers by affecting them emotionally with the fate of a child, but immediately (and very unprofessionally) shut them up when they talk about things which were not in the interest of the channel. Even if the girl was a Trojan Horse - you have to swallow the 'toad' to give at least the pretence of a neutral and unbiased news coverage, but here you have to be quite simple-minded if you don't see the channel's intentions and it's lack of interest in expression of free speech.

...which proves once again: Daily News TV - 'journalism' (everywhere) is the lowest possible form of journalism, and even slobbery paparazzi, who try to take some snapshots from a celebrities' pubic hair are honorable men compared to that scum, which is responsible for the TV news.

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Originally Posted by freddie View Post
...Kosovo independence complicating things in Georgia. It does give Ossetia & Abhazia an internationally justified discussion right on this topic...
Not really, it's just a problem with western credibility - "Paleface talks with forked tongue, howgh!" Independency of one country can't automatically give every other minority on earth, who feels unprivileged, the right to become independent. In fact any minority problem has to be faced and discussed individually, no use to merge situations of different countries in different parts of the world with different problems and put one and the same solution over all of them.

In case of Georgia - the renegade 'republics' didn't even try a way together with Georgia. This is where I would blame the international community most, and the EU in particular (because they don't have direct military/strategical interests like the superpowers), that they didn't try to force the conflict parties to at least negotiate earnestly and find solutions for the main problems. And to give a party, which is heavily involved in the whole conflict, the control over the situation is simply stupid and irresponsible.

Last edited by Argos; 16-08-2008 at 18:31.
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Old 16-08-2008, 18:05   #160
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Mr.Cyrillic-Nickname liked this BBC video http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=49wOzZdWWYM Saakashvili eats own tie

Saakashvili run away in panic
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9565/979234nn8.jpg
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3933/sakamo3.jpg
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