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Old 11-11-2004, 05:14   #1
freddie freddie is offline
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Palestine

Yup. He has died. For real this time. After 2 false alarms.

A very contraversial figure of international politics. A terrorist or a peacemaker? You be the judge. I just remember him as a man with the scarf who's been around since FOREVER. My first memories were like around 1982 and I remember him from THEN even.

I don't think this will be good for the middle-easter peace process though. Arafat was at least a reliable Status Quo, who knows what might happen now. There's are even been talk about the possibility of Hamas taking over.

Last edited by freddie; 11-11-2004 at 05:49.
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:37   #2
Little Squirrel Little Squirrel is offline
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im glad hes dead!
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:41   #3
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I could never say that about anyone, Little Squirrel ! I think this could lead to further chaos in the Middle East ...
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Old 11-11-2004, 11:56   #4
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Wow... There's been some talk about him here lately, and it's really too bad that he's dead. Okay, so I know NOTHING about politics, nor him, but still.. Who knows what's gonna happen now
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Old 11-11-2004, 13:14   #5
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May he rest in peace.

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Old 11-11-2004, 17:26   #6
haku haku is offline
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He always fought for his people who have been oppressed for decades, without him there wouldn't even be a Palestinian resistance, the occupied territories would have been annexed by Israel a long time ago if he hadn't led Palestinians to fight Israel.

He fought against incredibly superior forces and escaped several assassination attempts, he will remain a hero for his people who will continue to fight in his name.

The future looks gloom for Palestinian though now that he's gone.
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Last edited by haku; 11-11-2004 at 18:58.
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Old 11-11-2004, 18:49   #7
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The man gave up many opportunities to have an independent Palestine and deliberately burned bridges with neighbouring Arab countries that were kind enough to help out in the cause. He is a corrupt ass-face that exploited the plight of his people for power and wealth.

He hasn't had much influence over Palestinians for quite some time now, his death will probably have a symbolic impact over Palestine, I don't think anything will happen inside of Palestine. The only problem will be who will succeed Arafat in terms of who will represent Palestine to the international community.
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Old 11-11-2004, 19:04   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
The man gave up many opportunities to have an independent Palestine
Israel don't want an independent Palestine, there was never an opportunity for Palestinians to get an independent state, and there never will be.
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Old 11-11-2004, 22:05   #9
freddie freddie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
Israel don't want an independent Palestine, there was never an opportunity for Palestinians to get an independent state, and there never will be.
There was an opportunity... the offer was on the table in 98/99. The handshake with Rabin, the negotiations, Clinton pushing the issue. It was on HIM to accept it, yet he wasn't satisfied with the deal and eventualy got nothing. There COULD have been an independant Palestine today.
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Old 11-11-2004, 22:20   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
There was an opportunity... the offer was on the table in 98/99. The handshake with Rabin, the negotiations, Clinton pushing the issue. It was on HIM to accept it, yet he wasn't satisfied with the deal and eventualy got nothing. There COULD have been an independant Palestine today.
Soem deal that would have been. With Israeli negotiator 4 years dead and all. Must have been quite a smell there. No wonder he refused.

There never was opportunity. After Oslo Israelis continued to build settlements. During their incursions they destroyed Palestinian security infrastructure then blamed Palestinians for failure of their security forces to stop terrorism.

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Old 11-11-2004, 22:39   #11
haku haku is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
There was an opportunity... the offer was on the table in 98/99. The handshake with Rabin, the negotiations, Clinton pushing the issue. It was on HIM to accept it, yet he wasn't satisfied with the deal and eventualy got nothing. There COULD have been an independant Palestine today.
No way, Israel never offered an independent state to Palestinians, at best it could be called "bantustans" like in South Africa during the appartheid since Israel was offering Palestinians 6 or 7 pockets inside the West Bank not connected between each other... Is that a state?

In the original UN plan for Palestine, 50% of the territory was supposed to go to Israel and 50% to the Palestinians. Right now Israel is made up of 80% (!) of the original territory and it occupies the other 20%. Even the more moderate israelis don't plan to let those remaining 20% to Palestinians, maybe half of it at best.

What people on Earth after being invaded would agree to a settlement where you get less than 10% of your original territory, those 10% being divided in a dozen pockets not connected between each other and inclosed in the invader's state?

Again, this is exactly like South Africa and its black bantustans.

However, this is what is going to happen, the withdrawal of the Israeli from the Gaza Strip creates the first bantustan, after that Israel is going to annex East Jerusalem and the West Bank, except for maybe a dozen small pockets that will be left to Palestinians. That's fair.
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Last edited by haku; 12-11-2004 at 00:12.
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Old 12-11-2004, 00:05   #12
Little Squirrel Little Squirrel is offline
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i am christian and have nothing against any religion but you are acting very racist haku
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Old 12-11-2004, 01:18   #13
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Where exactly has Haku been racist Little Squirrel?
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Old 12-11-2004, 05:43   #14
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Only God knows how this death will effect the politics around Palestine and Israel. I hope people won't have to pay with their lives, though...
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Old 12-11-2004, 05:47   #15
marina marina is offline
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I can not beleive some of these threads !
Is this the same Yaser Arafat that is responsible for recruiting teenagers to blow up commuter buses?
He is a pillar of wisdom?
come on.....
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Old 12-11-2004, 06:04   #16
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marina, I, for one, think he's a terroist -- nothing more.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:34   #17
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Hey, ppl, no names calling here, okay? Arafat is dead and that's the end of his story. If you want the thread to hang around open so my suggestion is to discuss the possible effect of his death on the future development of the situation in Palestine.
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Last edited by forre; 12-11-2004 at 15:07.
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Old 12-11-2004, 16:50   #18
simon simon is offline
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The problem is that what Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat at Camp David in 2000 was certainly not generous, despite what the Israelis and the Americans say. If Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton thought itwas 'generous' to offer Gaza and four Palestinian cantons on 60% of the West Bank with the roads between them under Israeli control, unlimited Israeli settlement in the rest of the West Bank, agreement to Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem, no right of return for Palestinians driven from their homes, no compensation and not even an apology for driving most of the Palestinians out in 1948, then I shudder to think about what Ariel Sharon will consider 'generous' in any future negotiations.

However, the Geneva Accord, agreed in 2003 between Israeli Labour politicians and the Palestinians, set out much better terms - a Palestinian state in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem; the Old City shared between the two sides, with international monitors; compensation to Palestinians for loss of property in 1948. It's still not fair - the Palestinians will still have lost 80% of their homeland - but it's a practical solution that broadly follows UN resolutions, except for the Palestinians accepting compensation rather than a right of return, and accepting sharing of the Old City, rather than getting it all back from Israel.

If Barak had offered that at Camp David, the Palestinians would almost certainly have gone for it. The problem is that there's no sign the Israeli public is prepared to withdraw the settlers and allow a real Palestinian state. Without Arafat, Sharon will think of more excuses not to offer the Palestinians anything acceptable.
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Old 12-11-2004, 18:21   #19
haku haku is offline
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Terrorist or resistance fighter... It's the same old story, you are called a terrorist by your enemy, and a resistance fighter by your people, the way you'll be called in history books depend on who's going to win the fight.
If Germany had won WWII, French resistance would be called terrorists.

Some people seem to have forgotten how the state of Israel was created, how its creation was accompanied by acts of violence from Israeli organizations like the "Irgun" and others. You don't know what the Irgun is? You can check their resume here.

Irgun members were of course never tried for their actions, quite the contrary, they were celebrated as heros even though they committed the same kind of violence as Palestinian organizations will several decades later. The difference? Irgun won the fight, which make them resistance fighters instead of terrorists.

A few quick facts for people who have forgotten how the state of Israel was created:

At the end of WWI, Palestine became a British protectorate, Jews were 10% of the population, Arabs were 90%.

At the end of WWII, Jews were about 1/3 of the population (650,000), Arabs were about 2/3 (900,000). Jews owned about 7% of the land, Arabs the rest, the reason being that Jews were more "urban people" (and were new immigrants) while Arabs were more "rural people" (and had been there for centuries).

In 1947, a UN plan divided Palestine between Jews and Arabs, was it a fair plan? Not really.
Jews got 57% of the territory, the Jewish territory had 550,000 Jews but also 400,000 Arabs.
Arabs got 43% of the territory, the Arab territory had 400,000 Arabs and only 10,000 Jews.
The partition cut the Arab population in half! Half of them ending up in the territory of the other group.
(At that point Jerusalem didn't belong to any group, it's an international territory with 100,000 Jews and 100,000 Arabs)

Neither Jews or Arabs were satisfied with this plan, Jews because they wanted Jerusalem and didn't want Arabs in their territory, Arabs because they didn't want their population cut in half and didn't understand why they only got 43% of the territory when they were 2/3 or the population and owned 90% of the land (what people would have agreed to such a plan?)

This inevitably led to war in 1948.

To make it short, Jews won. They secured 60% of the original Palestine and the 400,000 Arabs who lived in this part were expelled. Jewish organizations like the Irgun and others had a good tactic to make Arabs leave. They would take an Arab village at night, kill everyone except a couple of people who would be sent to other Arab villages to tell them that if they didn't leave immediately, the same thing would happen to them the next day. This worked very well, almost all Arabs fled the Jewish territory which had now become the state of Israel, a purified Jewish state.

The rest is well known, in the following years Israel expanded again to the current 80% of the original territory, Arabs living in those newly conquered territories were also expelled, it is believed that a total of 900,000 Arabs have been expelled from their land since the creation of the state of Israel.
Is that fair? Is it a surprise that those people are pissed and desperate? I don't think so.
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Old 12-11-2004, 20:28   #20
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In a concrete way, Haku, which new distribution of the territories between Israël and Palestine would you propose to arrive to a peaceful conclusion?
You have here several maps or you could create one (think it's easier to get an idea with maps)
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/mid...aps/index.html

And which status would you give to Jerusalem, please (independant, divised into two parts, Palestinian or Israelian... ?)
It would be nice that you explain that to us for we understand better your vision of the best...thanks

Last edited by nath; 12-11-2004 at 21:33.
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