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Ideologic differences: Terrorism


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Old 16-05-2004, 23:57   #21
transcend transcend is offline
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I'd like to see the hyperbole and exaggeration stop now, comrades. Not that I'm picking on you RowerB, but for example - OF COURSE THE JEWISH LOBBY IS IMPORTANT IN THE US. HELLLLOOOOO!!!!!!!! But all this talk of Washington taking instructions from Israel, that is the kind of propaganda that can end with people suggesting that the Jews are actually a race of inhuman lizards seeking to take over the world (yes, I kid you not - you may not have heard of David Icke, but I have) or some subhuman vermin (and you know perfectly well what I'm referring to now). This kind of talk is precisely what's led to the level of political debate in the media that we currently have to suffer.
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Old 17-05-2004, 00:04   #22
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Old 17-05-2004, 00:07   #23
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You're right Mossopp but damn, this is the first time I've ever felt genuinely angry over what's being put out on the forum.
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Old 17-05-2004, 00:07   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
I bet you wouldn't have supported overthrowing the Taliban before 9/11.
Why on earth not? I remember being outraged when I heard about the Taliban's treatment of women, well before 9/11. I think one reason why people are so opposed to the Dubya and Tony show in Iraq is all the fudging and lies that have been used to justify this little adventure. It makes it look like they've got something to hide and makes people feel distinctly uncomfortable about supporting them.
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Old 17-05-2004, 00:28   #25
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I wasn't addressing you Lenochka, I was addressing haku's view that what dictatorships do to their own people is nothing for us to bother about.

By the way, I always thought that the strongest argument for the war was to liberate Iraq from Saddam and that the argument of imminent WMD attack was weak.
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Old 17-05-2004, 03:22   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
So you are quite open about having double standards. Saddam can torture people and its none of your business, but if the Americans do it, then you're outraged.
You purposely missed my point instead of addressing it. Of course i have double standards in this area! I expect nothing from a dictator, i expect a lot from a democratically elected government. Is this so hard to understand that i expect better from a democracy than a dictatorship?


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The idea that what happens in other countries is none of our business and we should only intervene when our own interests are directly threatened is not morality, it's selfishness dressed up as a moral principle.
What a wonderful defence of liberty, equality and fraternity! I think that morally, it is our concern. I think that human rights are more important than state sovereignty.
Where's the limit? Who is going to decide which countries have to be "liberated" and which countries are allowed to "liberate" others? The Soviet Union claimed that they were liberating the Baltic States, China claimed that they were liberating Tibet, Indonesia claimed that they were liberating Timor. You're acting like this "right" to intervene in other countries can only be used in a good way, a democracy overthrowing a dictator. That sounds nice on paper but this right can be used by any country, a powerful dictatorship might use that same right to get rid of an annoying little democracy. Maybe China will "liberate" Taiwan tomorrow? Who's going to stop them?
In fact this argument can be used by any country that wants to invade a neighbor.

As for your mockery of the French motto, what can i say, we did try to export the values of the French Revolution 200 years ago... "All men are born free and equal"... We tried to spread that across Europe but Britain brilliantly defeated us, remember? "All men are born free and equal"... Ironically only the US colonies agreed with us on that at the time. We learned the hard way that you can't impose those values by force on other peoples, and it's Britain which taught us that.


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unlike us unsubtle Brits.
Brits? Where did that come from? I never mentioned Britain in any of my posts. I have nothing against Britain, i like Britain. I like to think of myself as an Anglo-Norman actually. The treaty of Formigny in 1450 that saw the annexation of the duchy of Normandy by the French is probably the worst day of our history. The French claimed at the time that they were liberating us from the English oppression... yeah right! Normandy conquered England, not the other way around! (Stupid frogs)
Anyway, i wish the ducal crown of Normandy were still linked to the royal Crown of England and that we had remained an autonomous duchy.
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Old 17-05-2004, 03:26   #27
LenochkaO LenochkaO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
I wasn't addressing you Lenochka, I was addressing haku's view that what dictatorships do to their own people is nothing for us to bother about.
Sorry, must avoid skim-reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simon
By the way, I always thought that the strongest argument for the war was to liberate Iraq from Saddam and that the argument of imminent WMD attack was weak.
It's not so much what they've done as the way they've done it that's galled most people, I think. Ah well, nowt we can do about it now (or even then).

Personally, I think Kim Jong-Il's just as big a bastard, but you don't find much willingness to go in all guns blazing there because a) he's probably got nuclear weapons; and b) there's no oil in the DPRK. Plus there are two permanent members of the UN security council in the immediate vicinity, with two other major economies also nearby, who might all get rather upset if things went atomic here. You can bet your life they wouldn't have gone into Iraq if they'd thought Saddam had any serious weapons...
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Old 17-05-2004, 04:36   #28
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does any of the current discussion have to do with tatu or ivan?
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Old 17-05-2004, 04:44   #29
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Originally Posted by Lux
does any of the current discussion have to do with tatu or ivan?
It has to do with the subject of Ivan's new video which is enough to be on topic.
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Old 17-05-2004, 07:29   #30
dollparts3000 dollparts3000 is offline
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Everyone criticizes the US but the US has been there so many times to fight wars against evil dictators.

1. They fought in World War II
Where was France? Where was most of those other European countries? Where? Most were allied with Hitler or gave into him so easily (i.e. France)
2. The US fought against genocide in 1990
3. The US is now fighting the war against terrorism

How are most European countries fighting against terrorism????
I don't hear many of their efforts.
Russia does hardly anything.

These countries are cowardly or don't have any drive.

Life is bad for most people who live in the arab world. There is rape rooms, torture, the fear of getting kidnapped and women have no rights and are repeatedly raped, and abused and have acid thrown on them.

If people in the middle east would stand up against their goverment and revolt in a number that equals more than 30% of the population (not just the Shiites) than the US wouldn't have to interfere and attempt to STOP TERRORISM.

The French revolted against their government in the French Revolution and so did the British. The Arab world is a fucking mess full of people who want to destroy western ideals and values and carry out Jihad. Read the fucking Quaran before you talk out of ignorance. Google it. I dare you. Type Jihad and the Quaran or Koran in google and see what you get. I'm not going to do your research for you.


The U.S. is strong and fights against evil dictators and oppression. That is a good thing.

And Israel is fighting to exist. It is a small small country in the sea of the arab world. It is a tiny dot on a map. It faces terrorism and suicide bombers everyday. Ofcourse Israel fights back. If it didn't fight back, it wouldn't exist. It is the ONLY DEMOCRACY in the whole of the middle east!

Sometimes I think the people who defend terrorism and terrorists should get a dose of reality. Buy a plane ticket and visit the Arab world. Go to Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country. Go to the Palestinian territory and wear an American or British flag or just speak English.

What do you think life is like there? Can you walk down the streets free and safe? Can women walk down the streets freely?

Visit a prison. Swear against a political party in an Arab Country. Where do you think you will end up? Dead or in jail.

Swear in Israel or America or Spain against their governments, critize George Bush, what happens to you? Do you go to prison? Do you get tortured like you would in Arab country. Is your family kidnapped?

Most likely not.

That is the difference between a democracy like the U.S., Britain, Israel, and Spain. That is the beauty of free countries and free democracies. Maybe one day you will learn to appreciate this fact.

and for the person who said I was brainwashed, get a life and think outside you leftist European mentality where all people are good at heart. The world isn't a perfect place and not all people are good. Attend a meeting for Jihad with an Arabic translator. There is evil in this world and evil should be stopped. Go to an Arab country and then tell me that life is good there. I don't think you could. Your tongue would probably be cut off before you could say it.

Last edited by dollparts3000; 17-05-2004 at 07:42.
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Old 17-05-2004, 08:56   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haku
You purposely missed my point instead of addressing it. Of course i have double standards in this area! I expect nothing from a dictator, i expect a lot from a democratically elected government. Is this so hard to understand that i expect better from a democracy than a dictatorship?
I understood it perfectly. I said you were guilty of double standards to criticise democracies more than you criticise dictatorships and you admit it.

Quote:
Where's the limit? Who is going to decide which countries have to be "liberated" and which countries are allowed to "liberate" others? The Soviet Union claimed that they were liberating the Baltic States, China claimed that they were liberating Tibet, Indonesia claimed that they were liberating Timor. You're acting like this "right" to intervene in other countries can only be used in a good way, a democracy overthrowing a dictator. That sounds nice on paper but this right can be used by any country, a powerful dictatorship might use that same right to get rid of an annoying little democracy. Maybe China will "liberate" Taiwan tomorrow? Who's going to stop them?
In fact this argument can be used by any country that wants to invade a neighbor.
The difference is surely rather obvious. China wouldn't be 'liberating' Taiwan if it invaded and overthrew Taiwan's democratic government. America was liberating Iraq when it invaded and overthrew Saddam's dictatorship. A democracy can liberate a dictatorship, a dictatorship can't liberate a democracy. Is that so hard to understand? The world understood the difference when Nato liberated Kosovo.

Quote:
As for your mockery of the French motto, what can i say, we did try to export the values of the French Revolution 200 years ago... "All men are born free and equal"... We tried to spread that across Europe but Britain brilliantly defeated us, remember? "All men are born free and equal"... Ironically only the US colonies agreed with us on that at the time. We learned the hard way that you can't impose those values by force on other peoples, and it's Britain which taught us that.
It wasn't attempting to spread the values of liberty, equality and fraternity that backfired - it was later going back and imposing Napoleon's family as the kings and queens of Europe. I know that it is very difficult to spread democratic ideas to people who aren't ready for them, but most Iraqis say they want democracy. Twenty years ago, almost nobody outside Western Europe and North America had democracy and many people said the rest of the world wasn't ready for it. Now there is democracy across Europe, Latin America, most of Africa and much of Asia. Maybe something makes Iraqi Arabs unable to handle it, even though they say they want it (the Kurds have had it for several years). But it's surely a bit patronising to just assume that people who don't yet have democracy are too backward for it.
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Old 17-05-2004, 11:07   #32
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dollparts3000, you think that Arabs are evil, full of hatred, and that the Koran is only a call for Jihad... So why do you want to liberate them? If this is how you see them, how do you expect them to become democrats? What is your plan exactly, invade them and then what? Do you think they should be taught another version of the Koran, or maybe they should be christianized?
There are a few people who live in Arab countries on this forum, i'm sure they'll be glad to know what you intend to do with them (assuming they survive the liberation of course).

As for me being a leftist, that's laughable. I just said in my previous post that i wished Normandy was still a duchy and you think i'm a leftist? lol In reality i'm close to untraliberalism.


Anyway, i don't see why you and simon are so eager to counter my morally deficient views, your point of view has won on the ground! The war has started and it's not ending anytime soon.
Like i said several times, i did believe, like you do, that a general conflict between the West and Muslim countries was going to happen during this century. I think that the way it has started is a strategic mistake and that the price it's going to cost us is so high that the victory will smell like defeat. But it *has* started, there's no going back. Just be happy that your point of view has won and that mine has lost.

Now, take a good look at the enemy, 40 countries with 1 billion inhabitants, nuclear capabilities, and religious fanaticism... taking over the Soviet Union would have been a piece of cake compared to that.
It's gonna be an interesting century.
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Old 17-05-2004, 12:10   #33
transcend transcend is offline
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Which reminds me of the Confucian curse, "May you live in interesting times!"
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Old 17-05-2004, 15:55   #34
kr0k0 kr0k0 is offline
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While Yulia is pregnant a little talk about politics, about what happened eons ago, rise the level of adrenaline. And all this because of Shapovalov

and a deep thought : if americans will leave the Earth and move on Mars it will be a global "peace and harmonie" on Earth.

Last edited by kr0k0; 17-05-2004 at 16:08.
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Old 18-05-2004, 03:19   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kr0k0
and a deep thought : if americans will leave the Earth and move on Mars it will be a global "peace and harmonie" on Earth.
If US stupid patriots and brainwashed people will leave the Earth.... Oh! and add the Zionists fascists from Israel and amen brother
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Old 18-05-2004, 04:02   #36
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all of you bashers of Americans, do you know any? i am american. do you hate me? you people need to open your friggin minds.
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Old 18-05-2004, 04:10   #37
Bitty2002 Bitty2002 is offline
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I don't know if you guys are being serious, but this really hurts. America is where I was born and bred. I have been given a good life and because of that I love my country. I hate no country and wish no country harm. How can all of you be so hateful? You generalize about my entire country, like none of us matter, you wish us to be vanquished, sent to Mars? I live here, that includes me. I am a person, a person with feelings, hopes, dreams, etc. I love to learn about other countries and I respect the struggles and hardships they have encountered. Rather than hating, I try to understand. Yes, my country does evil things...but can anyone provide a country that has never done evil things? Jews, Muslims, Gypsies, or Poles, must I go on, have been persecuted and killed in every country. No country is perfect, because humanity isn't perfect. America is no exception and we certainly aren't the root or epitome of evil. And anyone who would like to argue that we are, I would like to have some evidence on things that we have done that every other country has not, in some way, done the same horrible things. That doesn't make it right. The entire world is corrupt. We can't just look for a scapegoat in America and hate everyone there.

Do you realize how much you all scare me? I feel like the world hates me for where I was born. Just as all of you, I didn't choose my nationality. I also don't hate my nationality. I feel afraid to go to other countries because of this deep hatred so many of you seem to have. You want so badly to put that hatred somewhere. I may not agree with Bush or my government at times, but I don't hate my country. I can't help that my two choices for president are two people I dislike. Does that mean I should be punished for loving my country? I don't spout that we are better, because we aren't. But we also aren't worse.

I just wish you guys wouldn't blindly bash an entire nation full of people with different backgrounds, beliefs, dreams, etc. How can you hate or wish vanquished an entire people? It is bordering on a Hitler mentality and that scares me. And don't tell me that it isn't prejudice, because it clearly is. You are judging an entire nation because of a few officials who govern it. Did everyone is Russia love Stalin's decisions? Do all Russians deserve to be hated for being born and bred in Russia and for loving their country? Do all people in France hate Jews? Because I have read about a lot of Anti-Semitism there. Should I judge that all French people hate Jews? Of course not.

So please, try and understand where to focus your dislike, not on a nation but certain ideals held by certain people. Don't hate so much. It is precisely that hatred that makes this world so shitty.

EDIT: I thought I would add, because it seems to be so vital to Haku and others...but the US is NOT a democracy. I know it is a big surprise, because that is what they call it. A democracy is ruled by its people. The US is not ruled by its people. We are given candidates to represent the people. I have two people to choose between, Kerry, who I worry about because he seems wishy-washy and Bush, need I even go there since all of you hate him. America is a sort of Republic. A few hundred people run our country and make decisions. Most of which have "safe seats" and stay in the system for years and years. Honestly, the huge majority of Americans do not even know who the hell runs our country. Most don't vote and certainly can't name people. Bush is just a public figure. He is not all powerful. There are a hundred faceless people making decisions behind him. Believe me, when they decided to torture prisoners of war or invade Iraq, they didn't send me a letter asking for my vote in the matter. In fact, I was too young to vote for a president when Bush was elected anyway. Not much I can do. I am a helpless bystander, with little power.

And Haku, terrorist probably do not consider themselves terrorists, but instead they are fighting for what they believe to be a good cause. That is generally how everyone views what they do. When the Cossacks invaded Poland, they saw it as rightful. They had been mistreated for years. They were tired of it. But the Jews that were slaughtered as the Cossacks swept through Poland wouldn't call it that. To them the Cossacks were murders. It is all in how you look at it, Haku. NONE of this, whether by terrorists or Bush is acceptable. Who cares what you call it. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe that the US is pristine and perfect. We do evil things, hell I don't thank any American lives without feeling the pain of caused by slavery and segregation. We KNOW that our "democracy" isn't perfect. The only thing we can say is that we have been abused by our government relatively less than some countries. That isn't exactly something to be proud of, but... You should have seen the riots and protests here when we went to war. We aren't proud that prisoners were abused. Then again, what is it you say? It is expected. It is war. Wow, seriously, if you want to see HORRIBLE acts upon humanity, look at war. Rape, plunder, murder, it has been present in EVERY war there EVER was. Believe me, no one here is happy or proud about it, its shameful.

Last edited by Bitty2002; 18-05-2004 at 04:31.
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Old 18-05-2004, 08:56   #38
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It's good to see you're still around too, Bitty - I'm quietly surprised that so many of the old crew are still present here, if not actually doing much posting. I'm sorry you've been so hurt by the things some people have said - but believe me, not ALL of us hate the US by any means, and I hope our posts have clearly demonstrated that.
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Old 18-05-2004, 15:42   #39
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I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'm more than capable of drawing a distinction between the US govt and the population at large, and I apologise if anything I've said came across as slagging the US people off. That's the last thing I'd want - I have some v.good American friends. I can sympathise with Bitty's comment that she doesn't like either candidate in the election - I didn't vote in the last British general election because I despise Tony and his cronies, think the Lib-Dems are too wishy-washy and couldn't bring myself to vote Tory. Hah! And they wonder why there's a low turnout at election time...

no matter who you vote for, the government always gets in </fed up with politicians of every hue>
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Old 18-05-2004, 23:22   #40
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitty2002
We KNOW that our "democracy" isn't perfect. The only thing we can say is that we have been abused by our government relatively less than some countries. That isn't exactly something to be proud of, but... You should have seen the riots and protests here when we went to war. We aren't proud that prisoners were abused. Then again, what is it you say? It is expected. It is war. Wow, seriously, if you want to see HORRIBLE acts upon humanity, look at war. Rape, plunder, murder, it has been present in EVERY war there EVER was. Believe me, no one here is happy or proud about it, its shameful.
Well said Bitty. unfortunately the US gov't does not have a "vote of no confidence" in our president. When the president is elected we're stuck with them for at least four years unless they are impeached, killed or resign. 2004 is an election year. If you read the polls most Americans are not happy with the way Iraq is being handled and Bush's approval rating drops every day.

I was shocked and furious when I heard about the treatment of Iraqi prisioners. It is totally un-American and it goes against every principle this country was founded on. Bitty is right, you cannot judge an entire country for the actions of a select few individuals. If you want something or someone to blame, Blame the hanging chads in Florida and the judges of the Supreme Court that put Bush into office. It's quite obvious to me from dicussions on this forum that whoever is elected president will have their work cut out for them if they wish to repair world opinion of this country.

As my mom always reminds me, "We are the loyal opposition." I love my country, frankly I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. My family, friends and life are here in the US. It's the only place I've ever lived. Sure I've been to Canada, but it isn't like the US. No other place on Earth is like the US, and no other country would feel quite like home to me.

Side note... I am a German Jew. My family was murder by the Nazi in WWII. However this does not mean I hate all Germans. I hate Hitler and he's dead. Why blame everyone else for the ravings of a mad man who found a loop hole in the constitution? *cough*Bush did the same thing*cough*
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