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The Racial Tension Thread


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Old 12-12-2005, 19:31   #1
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The Racial Tension Thread

Because of the recent events in Australia, what happened in France, Hurricane Katrina, and ugly soccer hooligans in general I would to discuss something that is often overlooked (intentionally avoided?) here.

Perhaps it is too vague to discuss but regardless I would like to hear your opinions on these or other events.
Is integration and tolerance only applicable to North America, is the European identity too strong to include others?
I hear Britain is doing ok so far.

Or is this simply an overt overreaction to Islamic fundamentalism?
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Old 12-12-2005, 19:57   #2
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i don't believe it's an overreaction to islamic fundamentalism... every country has it's nationalists that have the urge to spread hatred towards imigrants and "coloured" people... and it's up to government to take care of the situation so that violence doesn't escalate and we see what happens
but it's rather worrying when government fails to react properly, like with Katrina, sending the message that it's right to do wrong...
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Old 13-12-2005, 01:37   #3
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Racism in it's core is of course fear of the unknown. Yet basically I think there's one essencial difference between racism in Europe and former British colonies such as the USA or Australia. In "colonies" the reasons for racisms stem from the following: former slave-trade history (which would indirectly and inadverently make blacks seem less worthy people in minds of average americans), surpressed guilt over old sins which would make the existance of certain people a "painful reminder" for todays white generations (Indians in the USA, or Aborigines in Australia), the fear of smarter and more adaptable people coming over to take their jobs (mostly orientals), while this new found hatered between muslims and (mostly) white christians is a current fad among racists all over the globe for obvious reasons (I think racists all over the world are totally in love with G.W.Bush and his clumsy crusades for getting them a new toy to play with IMO.)

Much of the same racial bigotry exists in Europe as well and though it's equally stupid there's a vital difference to it's collony-based counterparts - Euro racism stems from European nations being nations of "extended families". If you know what I mean. Unlike the US, Canada or Australia, where white people consist of a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds (Irish, English, Slavic, German... you name it), Euro nations are predominantely still nations where people of a country are basicly from the same gene-pool. You can totally spot a typical french guy. Or an italian guy. Most of the white french have a very similar genotype and it's the same all over Europe. People consider their nations as their extended families cause in a broader sense they ARE genetically related to eachother (unlike Americans and Australians who are melting pots of different cultures). This is imo the cancerous wound of Europe - it's slowly becoming a melting pot of different cultures (which is extremelly good), but an average European probably wouldn't like to see this happening. It's probably the same feeling as an average mildly racist white guy would get if his daughter married a black guy. People feel like their "families" are getting wiped out by floods of immigrants. Now all it would take to remedy this situation is to somehow educate their KIDS (yeah, everything starts with next generations), that cultural mixing is actually the best thing that could happen to humanity and that it won't neccesary mean annihilation of their own culture and genetic family, but rather enrichment of it.

As for Hurricane Katarina it's my personal opinion that the goverment's inability to act had more to do with economic rather than racial factors (which is just as sad). Those people in New Orleans - black, white and all the colours in between - were just too poor and insignificant for a wealthy corporate giant such as the USA to get an immediate-response reflex.

But to get back to the original subject. Those hard-core racists - ones who feel it's a worthy enough cause to commit hate-crimes and such - those are using racism strictly as means of an excuse... racism is fear and no one fears something THAT much. They're doing it from completely different reasons from the ones I described above - eventhough they HIDE behind them as an excuse. These hard-liners are in it for one thing only - they have a physical need to hate something. It's the core of their existance. And people who're different (that's where the hidding behind excuses comes in) are perfect targets. I don't believe these people really believe different racists will do harm to them in the same sense as I don't really believe Osame Bin Laden has faith in Qu'oran.
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Old 13-12-2005, 04:12   #4
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i get the sense that Europeans cling to history and culture as fundamental parts of their identity, especially in eastern Europe. many of these different cultures and groups have clashed in the past and because of these conflicts, there is a heightened but subtle sense of racism. in this sense, people are racist no longer primarily based on skin color more on language and culture. racism is essentially recognition of those who are different from you. it is in human nature to fear those who are different but it is also part of the evolution of humans to a civilized level to realize the difference but to judge not based on it. in other words, people recognize difference but do not act or base judgment solely on it. it is natural for racism to always be present but the way people react to differences changes as society and law evolves.
in the United States, racism is subtle in many ways in that people are sensitive to race but in general, do not act overtly based on it. there are of course, exceptions to that, as there are everywhere. people will hate or learn to hate everywhere and act on that hatred, so it is no surprise that even though the US is a country of immigrants, many people are tolerant, many are tolerant and accepting, and many are neither. however, racism in the US between whites and blacks is a raging problem. it takes many words to clarify this but i want to say that the dynamic is very real and very problematic. in contrast to another racial dynamic is that of the whites and the asians. asian stereotypes are generally taken in a positive light so whites don't treat asians with much hostility. anyway.
i think there are many factors that play into the Hurricane Katrina reponse. first and foremost, the US budget is not a pleasant plan, as much of it goes towards defense and intelligence. alot of it goes towards funding governmental agencies to fight drugs. how much that trickles down to helping natural disaster victims is a tiny amount, miniscule at best. it is unfortunate for those who lost their homes and jobs but i think the US and many private donors tried hard to help. needless to say, the phillipines disaster happened earlier and that was terrible as well. it has not been a good year and all factors considered (i havent mentioned many, or clearly), it would be rather ignorant to section race as the primary factor for the reaction to hurricane katrina.
it's funny i always start these posts with a point in mind but sometime through it i get sidetracked through and through...and lose my original idea. however, the above mentioned is how i skim the pool of my opinions in an effort at coherent discussion. or not.

EDIT: i've been semi out of loop with current events but this article covers the events in australia
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Last edited by Lux; 13-12-2005 at 06:42.
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Old 13-12-2005, 09:19   #5
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id have to agree that racism in the US is much more subtle. but i wouldnt go as far as calling it racism anymore, i much prefer using essentialism. where as racism is defined mainly as the idea of domination and privilege on the basis of race; essentialism talks about a more subtle racial ideology where many associate characteristics with inborn traits. so much of the stereotypes we have in our schemas about blacks,whites,asians,blonds,gays..it most probably has essentialist roots to it. so when it comes to the US i am far less worried about "racism" but much more, concerned about essentialism. racism is easier to spot..essentialism, not so much.

as far as the katrina issue goes, i think the cause of the delay has not one, but many contributing factors. although i do think that race was a side issue, because if an area inhabited by wealthy white folk like say the hamptons, were to suffer a "natural disaster", im sure response time would be 10x that of NO. and ofcourse theres that issue of who was the head of FEMA at the time and his highly questionable credentials and so on and so forth.


EDIT:i didnt even see that you mentioned the philippines lux its kinda sad theres close to no coverage at all. funny how almost all of the pics shown are of US troops and their choppers

thank god my family is okay, but i pray for those who arent..
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Old 15-12-2005, 02:53   #6
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domination and privilege on the basis of race..inborn traits..let me get this straight.

if traits are inborn, or essential to whatever characteristic is singled out and judged (race, homosexuality, et al.), that is to say that these traits have nothing to do with socialization in the US. that is, learning, adapting, and assimilating into American culture has nothing to do with the formation of these stereotypes. people treat others based these characteristics because they think certain traits are essential to the characteristic as a whole, and nothing to do with the experience of the groups based on culture, experience, etc. so a devoutly religious homosexual mormon is judged the same way as a liberal, metropolitican homosexual. or, a non-white person growing up in the boroughs of NYC is judged the same as someone who grew up in a predominantly white, suburbian neighborhood in the Midwest.

i have one question regarding essentialism, as you put it:
if traits are essential, and in the US, essentialism has replaced racism in a subtle sense, how do you explain the acts of violence that are blatantly overt as compared to the subtle treatment of businesses and corporations to prefer whites to fill executive positions?
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Old 15-12-2005, 07:17   #7
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I don't have time right now so I'll come back later this week end to discuss about what happened , for exemple, in France.
I'm really upset that all was mixed and manipulated by some media and a lot of Poiltic Men!

I have just 2 questions-ideas:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crni
every country has it's nationalists that have the urge to spread hatred towards imigrants and "coloured" people...
I don't think it's so simple crni...I even think what you say could be VERY dangerous...
I explain : of course , I know you aren't dangerous but to spread systematically this idea is dangerous in the way that : for exemple in France, a lot of associations as "Touche pas à mon pote!" have spreaded , have pushed , have amplified such ideas: take care French hate all what is coloured and won't respect you!....

It's so easyyyyy....of course we are all afraid by all wwhat is different.but people adapt themselves with time and WITH WHAT THEY SEE!!!

So the problem is that with all this brain wash and MANIPULATION from POLITICS to get votes for elections, we have some persons from immigration who arrive in France and immediately situate themselves as VICTIMS!!! ..;I mean BEFORE they even learn to speak french they have in their brain, by all the propaganda, that they are VICTMS!!!

So first I would ask: Are you sure that ALL people really want to integrate a country?
I mean when you arrive into a country , at the origine it's because you have choosen this country...it "fits" to your choice...so may be you have to make some effords to try to INTAGRATE yourself....and when i say that no confusion.....France is a country where people have a Loooooooooooooottttt of freedom and a looooottttt of respect for the traditions of other countries...

Now if you come into France because your own country doesn't even know that the word "freedom" exits in a dictionnary , mostly for economical reasons, and , just exited from the plane you become to claim.. "France is a Sh*t, all people here are just Racists....we are treated Badly....."
I just ask to them....are you really sure that you want to integrate this country ?and I just have to say to them: "You are just fucking liers!!""...

Sorry but i'm really upset. France isn't The States, France isn't South Africa!!!
A LOT of things are made for immigrated people....for people , in general , who have not too much money....

Okay i know this incomplete post could look very HARD....but i have really no time now to developp...andd i'm upset by the manipulation of all this bombing problem by Intellectual journalists or unhonest politic men who absolutely BLIND they eyes from the reality.
Ideology is good but haas its limits too.

I just give you 2 exemples:
I have in my class a little pupil. He is originary from Mali. I think they are 6 children in the family with one mum who isn't working.
He lives with another wife who has too 6 or 7 children.
Do you know where these kiddies were during the riots in Paris? The week end, they took the subway to go to 30, 25 km in other suburbs to watch as a spectacle the riots....because "dixit" they thought it was great and funny to look the cars burning...okay it's their right to chhose a such show to show to their children.

During the next holidays, they will all go FOR FREE in the Mountain , for skying....
All will be paid by the social side of the town..
Me I'm in the middle class...if i want to send my kiddie in the same place , with the town, I would have to pay for one week between 500 and 700 euros.
So they are 6 children X 500 euros= 3 000 euros.

They have no work, they have a free flat, they don't pay taxes, they live with social indemnities and they go in holidays for free to the snow and ....they complain....i don't say other people I say THOSE specific persons.
I've never seen such wonderful smiles on the faces of these kiddies than when they explain how their friends are burning the bins for the fire men come and they could launch stones on them for fun!!

Yesterday evening I was in a shop to buy food in Paris ; A blond woman was shopping ...3 young guys -around 13, 15 years old- entered in the shop...
Not to buy something, just to have fun in disturbing people...so they have pushed FREELY and voluntary the woman...and after they were playing ti hide themselves from the security guards...the woman tried to speak with them..and told them "Why are you acting like that? You want to be respected and you don't respect yourselves other people"...she was 40 years old, she spoke to the kiddies in saying "VOUS" ( it's the polite way of you in french)
They answered to her in a very threating and agressive way and said "You're just a dirty racist!! Take care of you , we are waiting you outside the shop, Bitch!" (they used the "tu" which is the way of "you" you use with friends , damily or people you know).
The woman was scared and asked if a security guard could bring her to her house...

2 years ago, NO SECURITY GUARDS were in this shop...now they need it cause they have agresssions from teenagers all the days. and the cashers are themselves immigrated people but they are disgusted by a such behaviour.

So I don't think you can speak about "IMMIGRATION" in a general way in France.
You have several KINDS of immigrations.
The ones who have made the riots in France are a part of delinquant younth of immigration (they are almost teenagers in gangs) BUT this phenomen was USED by the media and politics to translate a problem linked to ALL the IMMIGRATED PEOPLE.

So I'm sorry to tell that but the ones who've made the riots in France belong to the criminal part of immigration ( sorry for my english I mean the teenagers or people between 13 and 30 years old but who live thanks to SOCIAL AIDS + steal (mobile phones, we call that in french :'tombé du camion" 'fallen from the truck"..it means all the brand clothes or computer or tv or camera which are stolen whe they are brought by trucks to the shop and are sold after "hand" to "hand" with a shorte price" ) .

It isn't the one who try to integrate the society by their studies or even simple jobs.

BUT the first part indeed, by its actions for FUN ( to be a hero as in the american movies) or for its own financial interests BRINGS PREJUDICE To THE IMAGE of the other immigration which really wants to be integrated!!!

crni, I've said "no" at the beginning of this post to you ...but indeed I have the same fears as you;..
DO you know what they say right now at the radio???
They say that these last months the potential people who could Vote for FRONT NATIONAL ( Extreme Nationalist Party) has increased!!!!

That's why I'm fucking UPSET!!!.... Because people here are AFRAID.....not about the difference of culture....but because of the criminality which has increased a LOOOOOOttttt these last years....
And they mix the criminal part od immigration with the all immigration!...

I'm fucking UPSET because i don't want this party drives my country!!!

So people claims we are such racists....the sentence of France is "Liberty,Egality, Brotherwood"
about EGALITY.....some complain it doesn't exisst here...I agree that it mght be more difficult to find a job when you have an arabic name than a french name....but in the same time, if a young teenager-30 years old -the style who was in the previous riot- breaks freely telephone places, windows, burns cars for fun , steal sradios in breaking car...he will get LESS problem with the justice than if ME I do 10% of what they do...
I would get a lot more problems with the LAW..here.

SO I could ask myself, is there EGALITY here?

To resume:
1/France isn't SOUTH AFRICA about respect of the human rights and social aids
2/ You can't speak about ONE IMMIGRATION IN GENERAL: you have sevral different types of immigration
3/WHen you arrive into a country you have RIGHTS..I agree.....BUT YOU HAVE DUTIES TOO.....one of this duty is just to respect the Law.

The problem is that a part of immigration wants the RIGHTS without aplying themselves the DUTIES.
ANd this is THIS PART(issue from the immigration and who prefers the money won easely than the efford of job or studies) who BRING the most negative aspect , sight on GENERAL COMMUNITY of IMMIGRATION.

I'll come back....cause it's very long to explain and I think France has a specific mentality so a specific problem with immigration.
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Old 15-12-2005, 10:30   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux
domination and privilege on the basis of race..inborn traits..let me get this straight.

if traits are inborn, or essential to whatever characteristic is singled out and judged (race, homosexuality, et al.), that is to say that these traits have nothing to do with socialization in the US. that is, learning, adapting, and assimilating into American culture has nothing to do with the formation of these stereotypes. people treat others based these characteristics because they think certain traits are essential to the characteristic as a whole, and nothing to do with the experience of the groups based on culture, experience, etc. so a devoutly religious homosexual mormon is judged the same way as a liberal, metropolitican homosexual. or, a non-white person growing up in the boroughs of NYC is judged the same as someone who grew up in a predominantly white, suburbian neighborhood in the Midwest.
maybe cuz im running on 4 hours of sleep, but i didnt quite get yoru point. so let me see if i can clear up what i said. an essentialist ideology suggests that race is a matter of innate characteristics, of which skin pigmentation or other inborn traits are key indicators. so when we laugh at dumb blonde jokes, we are showing our essentialist asses. and even discussing the word race is a bit tricky because the concept of race has nothing to do with the color of one's skin, but has everything to do with the social significance put on skin color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux
i have one question regarding essentialism, as you put it:
if traits are essential, and in the US, essentialism has replaced racism in a subtle sense, how do you explain the acts of violence that are blatantly overt as compared to the subtle treatment of businesses and corporations to prefer whites to fill executive positions?

well it depends on which acts of violence your are referring to. i never stated that extreme racism doesn't exists, becaue im sure it is still quite prevalent in the south and other lil dots but not to the extent of essentialism.
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Old 15-12-2005, 14:01   #9
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nath, i respect everything you said about france, of course you know the situation perfectly...
but i was speaking in general, and i don't see what i said wrong... it's just how things are (the way i see them, but of course i don't support them!). i might be wrong, of course...
i just want to emphasize that (just about) everything is in the government's hands... it seems france is very social country... but the problem with that "sociality" is that (bad) immigrants rather choose not to work and do some criminal work instead because they know they'll get financial support by the government anyway... they could say: "why would i integrate? i like the way it is!" and government doesn't do anything to make them get a job and work! i don't see where that leads (form the governments point of view). it's ok to help immigrants for a couple of months to settle, but in this way they are just getting the message that's it's cool to get in france and do nothing, or even better, make riots and such... WRONG!!

you said you're worried about increased supporters of nationalist patries... but that's pretty much the general image of europe today... sadly,in croatia is the same situation...

at the end i must say that i disapprove any extremist actions in any way and will never participate in such... so, nath, you don't have to worry about me
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Old 15-12-2005, 19:19   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crni
so, nath, you don't have to worry about me
I've never even thought about that from you crni...don't be afraid....
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Old 15-12-2005, 21:59   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
I've never even thought about that from you crni...don't be afraid....
i'm glad
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Old 15-12-2005, 22:19   #12
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well, i dunno what happens in your countries, but here the majority of people absolutely hate gypsies (moi included), because i dunno why the hell they have settled in our country (turning it into "Gypsyland") and, if they did, why the crap they don't find decent things to do except dig in the garbage, roam the streets in their horse drawn carts, live in their tents in the outskirts of all the bigger cities, steal and all that. we have created a good environment for them: they can attend schools, universities on taxpayer's money, yet i don't know how many do that. and not only that, but they also go abroad (illegally, duh) and beg for money and ask for political asylum saying they were being discriminated over here. of course, Spain, UK, France and all those countries GIVE THEM the asylum. heck, what i wouldn't give to go live in those countries. but no, i'm just a regular romanian working my ass off for a crappy sallary in order to save money to go ONCE A YEAR abroad LEGALLY. while the gypsies can go live there whenever they please (even get citizenship). and i bet they make MUCH MORE money by begging in the west than i do working. and i am NOT kidding.

moreover, westerners are of course sick and tired of getting our gypsies over there requesting asylums and all that, and so they impose rules on us, restricting romanians access abroad. the uk still require visas (as if that ever stopped gypsies from going there. they do it ILLEGALLY, hello!), while the rest of europe requires a certain amount of money and an obligatory voucher or invitation from the person you're going to abroad. so thank you very much, but this ONLY makes it harder for normal people like me to travel outside the country, NOT for the gypsies (and all the other idiotic thieves, for that matter).

anyway, that being said, i wouldn't say we are racists (except when it comes to the gypsies). but after the revolution in '89, we got to see black people on our streets and asian people and of course that was something new (it still is), so we're trying to get used to that. i've noticed people's tendency to stare when they see a black person mostly. but it's more of a curious stare if anything. like i said, we're still working on it.
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Old 15-12-2005, 23:46   #13
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why that's just good plain ol' prejudice
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Old 16-12-2005, 07:20   #14
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As far as my understanding of immgrants go, being one myself, I think it is safe to assume that all immigrants leaving a country for another do so with the innate understanding that in order to fully integrate/succeed into an accepting society they are going to have lose a bit of their culture/identity. Not they themselves, per se, but rather their children's because honestly I can't see any possibility of a fully formed adult totally abandoning their initial nationality. Adult immigrants also lose high prestigious jobs for low-paying jobs no longer occupied by white people (e.g. cab drivers). Seems like a lot but any immigrant would do that in order for their children to gain opportunities not possible in their home country. And their children do gain that opportunity, or at least they should.
See, it is like a give/take situation, but it doesn't only apply to immigrants but also to the host country. That country should leave room over time for the other generations of children of immigrants to grant them upward social mobility. These children have to have the chance to aim higher. To do that would involve the country losing/sharing some of the monopoly it has over the culture, identity and even power it once had. And naturally the country would change dramatically, for the better IMHO.
The US is exemplary in this, their identity has changed over the last hundred years. The children of Italian/Irish/Jewish/Polish/etc. immigrants eventually becoming millionaires, politicians; some even becoming presidents, shaping identity of the nation. Keep in mind though that many of those immigrants' worth was considered beneath that of Black people way back when. Of course it was/is easier having them integrate than having Black people integrate, but even though the US has criminally delayed their admittance into getting opportunities others have enjoyed (and still do, but more of that later) the contribution the Black people have made to American culture says a lot.

I don't think the problem in France lies mainly with the immigrants but rather with the government. I sorry, but giving rent-free apartments, gov't provided vacations and no jobs is pretty much the shittiest social plan I have ever of. Immigrants don't come to start a new life by becoming freeloaders (and they certainly don't come to bitch about their adoptive country), they come to work hard and earn a decent living for their children. That money for vacations and free rents should be redirected to give businesses incentives to employ immigrants. The impression that is coming from Europe is that most countries are not offering opportunities for first and second generation immigrants. It was the second generation immigrants that started and participated in the riots. As history dictates, it is the second generation that personifies the success stories. nath, you briefly mentioned that it is harder for people with non-French names to get jobs than it is for people with French names even when they are both qualified, but perhaps this deserves a lot more focus. These people are not getting the opportunities they deserve, they aren't getting the very thing they solely came to the country for. What is the point of getting an education when you do can do nothing with it?
Are they even starting to participate in French discourse?
Is there a fair immigrant representation of French politics?
If they isn't any of those, then honestly I think the riots were justified; all other means to get these issues to the surface were exhausted and proved ineffective. There is nothing like a riot to make people pay attention and act.

The question, I think, really is if France (and other European countries facing the similar situation) willing to give up a part of themselves, their identity for the sake of their immigrants?
Do you dread, or look forward to having the national music of France with a strictly North African rhythym to it? Can you see having a Turkish German Chancellor, and voting for him/her? The most succesful high-paying actor/actress in Sweden being Somalian and people lining up to see all of her/his movies?
These are all superficial examples but basically what I trying to say is if Europe is willing to change their identities as much, and maybe moreso as the US has changed.

You may say yes nath, but I don't think too many Europeans would like that.

PS: And just a question, because I have heard this from a few German and French people, but are immigrants actually considered French/German/Italians/etc. or are they just "Citizens of France/Germany/Italy/etc?

PPS: KillaQueen, usually I'd jump all over that but so many people I know who are sooo not racist have those very same sentiments when speaking of gypsies. I swear to God, for the longest time I didn't think gypsies still existed and the only gypsy I could conjure up in my head was Esmerelda. Horse drawn carts? Seriously? Like what, are they race or something?
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Old 16-12-2005, 08:22   #15
KillaQueen KillaQueen is offline
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My dear Powerpuff, now i realize this may not be the best image for my country (it's not that i hate it or anything - well, i do, but that's another story lol), yet here you go. hopefully you believe me now: pictures of those lovely gypsies (and let me tell you you are SO lucky for not being around them - don't worry, me and some millions of other 'lucky' people have already filled that spot, thank you very much).
typical gypsy tents - that's where the poor ones live.
the so-called "gypsy palaces" - where the rich ones live (wonder where did they get all their money from).
you can see this scene in Bucharest every day, in metro, busses, trams, you name it
look at this one. the ones looking like this usually want to read your palm and shit.
hello, mr. typical gypsy man!
and saving the best for last: the blasted horse drawn carts! - these are usually filled with a whole gypsy family going out for a 'drive', sometimes in our capital's CITY CENTRE (luckily we got a new law saying they cant come here with those 'wheels', but that doesnt stop them). i mean just imagine THIS among those brand new bmw's, peugeots, fords and what not. whoever said USA was the land of all possibilities was wrong.
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Old 16-12-2005, 09:11   #16
coolasfcuk coolasfcuk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillaQueen
well, i dunno what happens in your countries, but here the majority of people absolutely hate gypsies (moi included), because i dunno why the hell they have settled in our country (turning it into "Gypsyland") and, if they did, why the crap they don't find decent things to do except dig in the garbage, roam the streets in their horse drawn carts, live in their tents in the outskirts of all the bigger cities, steal and all that. we have created a good environment for them: they can attend schools, universities on taxpayer's money, yet i don't know how many do that. and not only that, but they also go abroad (illegally, duh) and beg for money and ask for political asylum saying they were being discriminated over here. of course, Spain, UK, France and all those countries GIVE THEM the asylum. heck, what i wouldn't give to go live in those countries. but no, i'm just a regular romanian working my ass off for a crappy sallary in order to save money to go ONCE A YEAR abroad LEGALLY. while the gypsies can go live there whenever they please (even get citizenship). and i bet they make MUCH MORE money by begging in the west than i do working. and i am NOT kidding.

moreover, westerners are of course sick and tired of getting our gypsies over there requesting asylums and all that, and so they impose rules on us, restricting romanians access abroad. the uk still require visas (as if that ever stopped gypsies from going there. they do it ILLEGALLY, hello!), while the rest of europe requires a certain amount of money and an obligatory voucher or invitation from the person you're going to abroad. so thank you very much, but this ONLY makes it harder for normal people like me to travel outside the country, NOT for the gypsies (and all the other idiotic thieves, for that matter).

anyway, that being said, i wouldn't say we are racists (except when it comes to the gypsies). but after the revolution in '89, we got to see black people on our streets and asian people and of course that was something new (it still is), so we're trying to get used to that. i've noticed people's tendency to stare when they see a black person mostly. but it's more of a curious stare if anything. like i said, we're still working on it.
Well, KillaQueen, basically described BULGARIA as well... and i mean that 100% ... and the pic she posted above could just as well be taken in BULGARIA ... so Killa dont you think you are alone in this... though, Romania is bigger and i think might have just a tiny bit more gysies, but that might be questionable .... believe me when i travel around europe with bulgarian passport it ISNT easy, because the gypsies have 'set' perfect example 'round the west .. i constantly had to prove I have $ and return ticket (honestly, having green card is the only thing that made it easier).

oh yeah, one last thing you didnt mention that we have (and believe me all the people that come to visit me DIE when they see, esp. sasha) ... BEARS in the city's center! a papa gypsy has the bear on a leash or rather chain, that connects to a hoop that goes through the bears nose (yeah, nice piercing) ... and the gypsy has a string musical instrument... when he starts playing it the bear gets on its back feet and starts DANCING!!! THe gypsy is doing that hoping the tourist would give him $$$ but the tourists are simply astonished and run far away,, as they arent used to seeing a bear 10cm from them! so do you have that as wel Killa?

lemme see if i can dig couple of pics that i took 2 summers ago while i was back home visitin

edit: BINGO I knew i had uploaded some on webshots long time ago, here are couple of bear pics from Sofia CENTER, and i mean, the center center, on one of the busiest streets with ALL the expensive stores like gucci and so on
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...94597094aaIuBs - here he is, i was filming with video camera (those are screen shots), so he thought i was a TOURIST , so of course he started playing.. the bear here is about to get on the back feet...he is staring at me hoping for $..
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...94597110eWBOFb - to which i was like ... "NO" motioning with my head, so he stopped playing and kept going down the sidewalk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...94597085hgSYTw - yep, he is about to walk through that sidewalk cafe with the fucking bear!

edit2: blah, i cant find the pics of the hourse carrage i took that same summer .. on my STREET, like 3 min walk from my apartment! i will surely post it when i find it thought...
~~~~~~~~~~~
oh... o!

Last edited by coolasfcuk; 16-12-2005 at 09:27.
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Old 16-12-2005, 15:43   #17
haku haku is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
The question, I think, really is if France (and other European countries facing the similar situation) willing to give up a part of themselves, their identity for the sake of their immigrants?
You mean more than going from a Celtic nation to a Roman province, adopting the language and the culture of the conquerors in the process? I think we have been more than willing to give up a part of our identity for the sake of our immigrants, otherwise we would still be a pure Celtic nation like Ireland, France would still be called Gaul and we would still be speaking Gaulish.

France, like any other European country, has always had an evolving identity and culture, it has assimilated many immigration flows during its history. Europe has a whole has known countless population movements and various invasions throughout its history, change is a constant in European history.
Like i said, France went from being a Celtic nation to a Roman province, and later to a Frankish kingdom. Celtic to Italic to Germanic, talk about evolution! The original Celtic population of France (which is actually not 'original' since like all Indo-Europeans, Celtic tribes came from Eastern Europe) has seen many flows of immigrants, Greek colonists in Southern France (Marseille was a Greek Colony), many Roman colonists after the Roman conquest, Germanic settlers after the fall of the Roman Empire (the main tribe, the Franks, becoming the new rulers and giving their name to the country).
My own region, Normandy, saw another massive flow of immigration during the 10th and 11th centuries when many Scandinavians settled there following the Viking conquest.
Of course this is old history, but this is Europe. Europe is not the US, Europe has a long and complex history that can't be denied, and its modern population is the result of a complex mix up of many different populations. I live in a region populated by people who are a mix of Scandinavian, Celtic, Frankish, and Roman people, i live in a city that was founded by the Romans over 2,000 years ago over a Gaulish village whose foundation is lost in time, our identity and culture has evolved a great deal in 2,000 years, it's not something that was frozen a long time ago and has never changed.
But even in more recent history (18th-19th centuries), France has seen many new flows of immigrants, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, and Russian people to name a few, all those people are now fully integrated in French society and can't be told from 'older French' people.

Nicolas Sarkozy, one of the most prominent political figures in France at the moment and leader of one of the 2 main parties, is of Hungarian origin (and even a quarter Turkish), and even though his family is of recent immigration (it's his father who immigrated), they are fully integrated in French society and totally considered as French. I have never ever heard anyone, not even among his political opponents, mentioning anything about the fact that his family has only been French for 50 years.
So integration of immigrants in French society does work, and has been working for over 2,000 years.

The only troubles are recent, and they come from African immigration, African people do not integrate, they never have and probably never will (or at least not in the foreseeable future), it was a mistake to allow so many African immigrants in France and in Europe in general, it simply does not work.
Plus, Europe is currently undergoing a difficult process, the European integration within the European Union. Borders no longer exist within the European Union, and people from the 25 member states are considered EU citizens, they can travel, work and live anywhere they want within the European Union. All EU nations already have to give up a part of their identity to build something greater and go toward European unification.
It's a difficult enough process as it is, one that has already caused 2 world wars and countless regional wars in European history, but this time we are trying to achieve continental unification peacefully.
In my opinion, adding external immigration to an already stressful process of continental unification is too much to ask to European people. External EU borders should be almost closed to external immigration for the time being, to let the time to European people to come to terms with the population movements within the EU and the changes it's causing in our national cultures.
~~~~~~~~~~~
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Old 17-12-2005, 01:06   #18
freddie freddie is offline
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There's a question arising here: what do people consider as "integration" these days? Getting a job and learning the langauge of a host country? Or complete cultural embrace of new surroundins and gradual decay of original heritage? I'm sad to see that this is exactly what many Euro nations would like when it comes to the question of immigrants. They want Europe to become a melting pot of nations where immigrants (or at least their children) would eventually ceased to embrace their original culture, becoming completely assimilated into the new one. Imo, Europe as a continent should be all about celebrating diversity.

I agree with Ppgrrl about the social side of the immigrant issue. I think being unemployed, especially in a foreign environment is bound to make a person estranged from it's surroundings, up to that extent when you start considering the state, goverment and people around you as your enemies.

Regarding gypsies - same problem is Slovenia. I'm split in my opinions as far as it comes to them. On one side, yes, every person deserves basic privileges, guaranteed by the UN charter on human rights, yet on the other these gypsies are trying their hardest to EXACTLY match every bad stereotype people have about them. As in: they're given an opportunity to have jobs, yet they don't want them, since they live well of wellfare (especially since they almost as a rule have more than 4 children per family - which automatically grants them max goverment aid), they steal, cause riots, threaten locals with knives, their children evolve sooner than average western white children do (this is scientifically proven), which means girls get married at 12-14 - a 15 year of gypsy girl usually has her first child already - yet this brings another inconvenience: 12-15 year old gypsy boys who think white girls they go to school with develop just as quickly as tehir gypsy counterparts, so they start badgering them sexually... it came up to a point where Slovene parents in a school near the Hungarian border (that's where most of the gypsies are concentrated), demanded gypsies to have a separated classes from their white mates. This issue even came up to the European Commission as a breach of human rights. I do admit that seperate schools idea is taking it a bit far. It has a kind of a nazi-flavour to it.

I'd say that as human beings they still deserve to be respected and treated with dignity, yet Euro goverments (especially in Eastern Europe where this problem is most serious) should start indirectly forcing them to gradually adapt to the surroundings they're living in (getting a job, sending their children to school - many gypsy kids are never sent to primary school, or they drop out before finishing. If they can't assimilate or even adapt then they should at least RESPECT habits and traditions of a host nations, if they want to live with them in harmony. Where do they come from Killa asked... well scientists have not figured their historical migration routes precisely, yet by now it's almost proven that their original homeland was infact - India. They share a common genotype structure to some castes of Indians and their langauge Romany is lingusitically tied to some languages of India - namely Punjabi. They became nomadic around 9th century, when they left their ancient motherland India and headed towards Europe through territories of today's Iran and Pakistan. Why they became nomadic in the first place is still a puzzling issue.
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Last edited by freddie; 17-12-2005 at 01:24.
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Old 17-12-2005, 06:14   #19
KillaQueen KillaQueen is offline
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coolies, holy cow, we don't have bears like that!
i mean i have NEVER seen this here lol. ok, that's just pure shocking. thanks for making me feel better

freds, yeah, i imagine they are spread everywhere in eastern europe, but i saw a percentage board at some point, and it seems we have the most gypsy percentage in ALL of europe
oh i didn't ask where did they came from lol. i very well know where they came from, shit, don't you think i wish them to go back every single day?
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Old 17-12-2005, 08:19   #20
coolasfcuk coolasfcuk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillaQueen
coolies, holy cow, we don't have bears like that!
i mean i have NEVER seen this here lol. ok, that's just pure shocking. thanks for making me feel better
no ffffffffffkin way! so your gypsies are WAY better behgaved then ours! .. i have a video of a bear somwehre from last summer when i was at the seaside.....:luagh: .. the man played under our balcony ... so fkng lovely

Quote:
freds, yeah, i imagine they are spread everywhere in eastern europe, but i saw a percentage board at some point, and it seems we have the most gypsy percentage in ALL of europe
yeah, freds, i think Slovenia has almost none compared to romania and bulgaria... i remember something like aht Killa is saying... most in Romania, then Bulgaria in second place

oh yeah, and killa, do yours still the ELECTRICITY Cables? cause ours do and some of them burn up there... or a whole neighborhood goes black for a while... and then they sell it for recycling

thought id add some photos of OUR, haha Bulgarian, gypsies:

Gypsaaaaaaaaaaaa
http://miss-information.net/blog/archives/001503.html - here they tell you how poor they are...
Gypsies

Gypsies (or roma) are everywhere in Bulgaria and Eastern Europe, and it's been interesting to observe the attitudes Bulgarians have toward them. Gypsies can be seen everyday going through the trash bins on the street collecting items others have discarded. Several times I've seen entire families sifting through trash. I wonder what it's like being a teenage boy helping your parents rifle through a dumpster in front of the school where other children your age can see you; I imagine it's humiliating. People will often leave "good" items such as shoes and clothes next to the trashcans for gypsies; I suppose this is similar to donating things to Goodwill in the US.

Gypsies seem to live in houses, while most other Bulgarians prefer to live in the concrete apartment buildings that have central heating and other modern amenities. Although there are some sections of town that are populated almost entirely by gypsies, they live throughout town; we have gypsies living behind our apartment building. Gypsies seem to have their own culture and social status that is separate yet integrated with mainstream Bulgarian culture.

Most Bulgarians seem to stereotype gypsies as beggars and slackers, find nothing positive to say about them, and blame all problems on them. If street signs disappear it's the gypsies; if the government doesn't have enough money it's because the gypsies are freeloading; all petty theft is caused by gypsies; the list goes on and on - practically all problems are caused by gypsies. Gypsies are considered to be lazy bums, even though they seem to have to work quite hard to survive; for example, the gypsies behind our building are chopping wood right now for heat, whereas the rest of us are warm in our centrally-heated apartments. Go figure.

There is a gypsy woman who begs everyday in the center of Rousse. One day a friend and I were walking though that area when she approached us. After we left my friend told me that if the beggar didn't bring back enough money at the end of the day she would be beaten; since then I often give her some loose pocket change when I see her in the square.

this is what a fucking American visitor had to say about gypsies.... honey, what they fuck do you know, go back to your bubble, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11...teroid_honour/ .. oh yeah... see, some can make it big if they just know how to work it! this is the biggiest selling Bulgarian music artist in the last few years - Azis - the gypsaaaaaaaaaaa
~~~~~~~~~~~
oh... o!

Last edited by coolasfcuk; 17-12-2005 at 09:00.
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