::Opinions:: Homophobia, racism, etc.

[cirrus]

Originally posted by haku
Freedom of speech stops where the right of other people to exist starts.

Hell yeah haku! I'm glad you said that. People have the freedom to say anything, really, until we abuse our rights and deny someone of their freedom. There are boundaries and responsibilities, and just plain courtasy for other people. Just because we have the freedom to say something, doesn't make it right or justified.

Then again - once someone pisses me off I'll say anything, aiming to offend them. I don't do too good a job of respecting people when they get me angry...

[Kappa]

PowerPuff Grrl, I have been taken for a white supremacist more than once and I have not uttered a word of hate towards people of other races. It has been merely because of the color of my skin; to be honest, I'm not even near what Arian race is ¬¬ . I'm Slavic. I'm kind of touchy around that subject so I'll appreciate being heard on this my last opinion about that subject.

Sonix is not my example of a subject with the best ideals but he will not go around killing people that are not of his race. He is well over that (or maybe he isn't and that's why we haven't heard of him for a while?); it's stated here and in human rights that to commit a hate crime, verbally or physically, based on religion, race, ideals, sexuality or any other human difference, is a direct offense to that person's dignity and according to the degree of that offense, the offender must pay [a fine, time in prison, apologize publicly, etc.].

HOWEVER and up to my last knowledge of Sonix, he did not have Hitler's swastika on his avatar, he did not have an offending signature, and none of his posts excepting one that very clearly exposed his opinion about his race, in a clear and unnoffensive way that could have clearly saved Hitler from me wanting to travel back in the future, rip his nuts off and make him swallow them, were related to that.

Sonix is NOT a threat to anyone. He will not track you down if you're Asian or Black or a Slav or a Jew, because HELL, the forum is full of us; he just commits the crime of vanity, of liking his race the best and wanting to prove an inexistant superiority. LET HIM BE. I do not support him, and in my views, whatever points of view I don't share with the original poster, I'd rather ignore instead of saying he's a subject of reprobation and lack of decence when he hasn't said a word in about seven months.

ypsidan04, thanks for liking my funkeh way of declaring I needed breakfast of some kind. I insist, Yulia's breasts (but Lena's, way better), would consist of my full breakfast, supper and dinner. :P

[shizzo]

darje - I'm led to think that it's more the principle of his having
been a white-supremacist, not his being a potential threat, that
caused this topic. Think of this :

Suppose that you frequented a particular forum which didn't
have any particular reference to homosexuality. [For instance,
let's say it's a fansite for a new girl group.] The topic of
homosexuality goes unsaid for a long time after your
registration, during which time you make friends with loads
of people who don't really have a strong opinion about
homosexuality at all.
Then suppose that one of the other members on the site,
when a thread concerning homosexuality was written, stated
that he/she just thought that anyone who wasn't hetero was
probably going to burn in Hell after death. The first sign of any
negativity whatsoever from the person.

Would you yourself just "ignore it"?
No.
And I think that's the same situation PowerPuff Grrl is facing -
he made a comment about white-supremacy at one point, and
that's soured his entire persona in her view. And rightfully so,
I'd imagine - if I were in her shoes, I'd have reacted the same
way. But because the issue of racism takes a backseat to topics
covering homosexuality at this forum, the topic wasn't discussed
or elaborated. Hence, her current opinion.

I agree with PPG - if a person has resentment toward another
race, sexuality, ethnicity, etc., it has to be dealt with delicately.
Stating your opinion without being disrespectful is possible. It
of course can lead to certain uneventful results afterward [for
example, you probably would grudge what that person on the
fansite had said and begin to dislike him/her more and more],
but as mentioned time and time again, it's all a matter of
rights. And of privileges. And at times, of people privileging
themselves to rights they don't yield. But everyone has an
opinion. Whether or not people choose to listen to it is
irrelevant - no one is incapable of "being the better person"
and respectfully ignoring that person or that person's comments
if it can't be regulated via moderation.

[So many factors to consider. My debate skills are weakened. :/]

But we can't allow them to express their opinions by killing someone just because they don't agree with how this person lives their life.

Back to the notion that a person's right to swing his/her fist
ends with the tip of someone else's nose. There's a difference
between "expressing an opinion" and "acting on an opinion".
One can be annoying, the other can be illegal. From here, it's
more or less a matter of personal belief. I [personally] think
that anyone who kills someone else for some abstract reason
which isn't justifiable has considerable symptoms of Stupid and
is lucky to have gotten far without doing so in the past. And,
[personally], that kind of nonchalant disrespect renders their
opinions as baseless to me due to the almost complete lack of
[in-my-perspective] logic.

Subjectivity and objectivity might not level as often as would
be more convenient or "easier", but that's just how it is - it
deals with personal perspective. So much to consider...

[taty994945]

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
I just spent the entire weekend wrapped in the smell of gunpowder and hot brass, so I'm lying low for a while.

You seem to doubt my ability to get away with what I do - I assure you, that is the easiest part.After all, if the guy was speeding, his brakes failed and he ended up halfway through a concrete wall, it generally goes down as an "accident". Or if they O.D. on a particularly potent drug - how do you trace that? When I go to work, it is usually with great care, large amounts of planning and executed with the minimum of danger to myself. As always, maximum efficiency is rewared with maximum success and minimum loss... This past weekend was the exception... Let's rather forget that for now.

I don't know what this is about, but he sounds pretty dangerous. Or maybe he was kidding.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

HOWEVER and up to my last knowledge of Sonix, he did not have Hitler's swastika on his avatar, he did not have an offending signature, and none of his posts excepting one that very clearly exposed his opinion about his race, in a clear and unnoffensive way that could have clearly saved Hitler from me wanting to travel back in the future, rip his nuts off and make him swallow them, were related to that.

- Actually he did have a swastika on avatar momentarily but was then asked to put it down by another poster
- There were threads where he went into great detail describing his beliefs, most of these threads however were purged long ago, I'm sure there may be some here and there though. One thing for sure it wasn't just one comment that exposed him, it was a series of comments


Darje, most, if not all, of your post could be applied to Figdet's case, but it isn't. I really don't see how Figdet is capable of posing a threat to other people... Silenced Sonix other hand...

[Kappa]

PowerPuff Grrl, well, Fidget could slap me. I'd probably pinch her nose, say "what a cute gesture" and walk away because my policy is to never hit girls. :P

Sonix, on the other side, we know nothing of him, wether he jokes or not. He lives in a troubled side of the world and I'm kind of convinced that his beliefs are guided by some mistaken ideal of what should be and should not be. Following Forre's example for once, I say that while he isn't around to defend his case, we don't talk about him. It might agravate you that he actually is around but we are talking about giving a fair trial to anyone whose beliefs breach anyone else's.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go officialy close a thread and start a helluva complicated game. :P

[spyretto]

Opinion: I never put much thought on it, and it doesn't interest me that much to become actively involved. But I'll try to state my opinion in all honesty here.

I find comments like "I'd eat Yulia's breasts for breakfast" as disturbing as stating that "Yulia's breasts are like two small pancakes" ( this is where the reference to eating comes but I do not condone cannibalism of any kind ).
I also think that people with common interests would ally behind a common ground, it's only a "natural" aspect of our social being. Sometimes it is a just cause, other times it can be something as pointless and stupid, as racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-semetism, etc. Yet, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that It goes both ways, there's also reverse racism, "heterophobia" etc.
A example: I read from time to time that certain people hate Tatu cause they're "lesbians" - this is the spontaneous, initial reaction Tatu can cause to some people. But if it was crystal-clear that Tatu were indeed gay, it wouldn't be long before the gay fan community could declare that " Tatu are gay, what are you doing in this site?" Heterosexual fans of Tatu are still the minority here.
Another example: A certain user should probably have been "penalised" recently according to the rules of the forum but didn't, thanks to her good terms/friendship with the owner of the site. Others should have been "penalised" too, I for one, if we were to follow the letter of the law blindly.
All in all, people have a liking/disliking for their fellow people and it's not only the actions that determine it but sometimes only a common characteristic/bond.

About racism, of any kind, as I said, I find it pointless and stupid. About homophobia, although I said that to me it seems like an anomaly, it exists in the natural course of things since time immemorial - and even in abundance - so there's nothing to be afraid of. It would also be pointless and stupid to me to judge a person from whether he/she is gay or not - all the same from whether one has pale or dark skin, whether one is Jew, a woman, a German, an American etc.
Although I do not condone reverse "homophobia" too, and I don't rate it as a "priviledge" to be gay either And I cannot pretend that I'm close to how gay people feel or think.

Nature works in mysterious ways, there's an abundance of species, types, idiosyncrasies etc. To assume that one type is "better" than another is inconclusive, as one type could be better in one thing and worse in another. Let the actions of the person determine her worth, not the colour of the skin, her gender or her sex preference.

And there goes my two cents.

[Kappa]

spyretto... *ahem ahem*. I didn't think I'd have to clear THAT up, y'know? But lesbian sex is also known as "eating out". Expanding those terms to breakfast, I thought the gag was funny. :P

[spyretto]

yes, I know, Darje, that was a joke actually - about cannibalism. But what I said there still stands. You're free to say what you want, of course. But if I wrote something like, ahem Yulia has a nice ahem and ahem, I'd like to ahem, I wouldn't feel too proud about that either.
It doesn't matter what I'd think about that

ok, it's 7 am here and I'm up already. Are we starting that game or what

Oh, about religious differences I'd like to add: They seem to engender a tremendous cycle of violence and I cannot turn a blind eye on that. I'm not saying that Islam has inherent violence or that the common muslim is proud of what's happening but it seems that, at this particular moment in time, Islam is tolerating a lot of hatred and intolerance amongst its people. In general, religious differences have generated a horrific cycle of violence during the course of history, and with Christianity, no less. Another occurence I find utterly bizarre and pointless.

[Uhaku]

Nat, I never thought for a second that you would think racism, homophobia, or any thought/form that are against mankind, are *all right*. I did not accuse you of anything. I simply asked a lot of questions, sharing my thoughts and hoped for you to share yours. My questions were just questions, without sarcasm or any hard feeling hidden. I asked like a child who could only think of straight questions. ^_^’

Now back to the topic of intolerance and discrimination:

I wrote that just to give an exemple....I tried to understand how they could react, why they could think in a such way!

I understand your point of stating that better now. I, too, try to understand why some people think of certain things differently. I’m always open to new ideas, hoping it could enlighten me in some way. I asked, “Do you agree to IGNORE their thought?” Not that I thought you agreed WITH their thought.

IMO, trying to understand others is good, but it’s just not enough. Actions are needed. I think that we all could make a difference if everyone takes little actions around us. I don’t think if we decided to make a change (for the better), it would be called discrimination or intolerance. When our friends have a thought against other human being, I’m not saying that we should beat them up, but we shouldn’t just stand and watch them getting accustomed to their hate either. I know it’s not easy, but one needs to *learn* all through their lives. Never stop searching right when we stepped out of our home/school/church/community. We can learn from others, and others can learn from us. When one stops learning, it means they’re ready to get into their coffin.

Yes, life isn’t black and white. I know life is all shades of gray. As I said before, all things concerning humanity can’t be treated as math. When someone hit your partner in the face, she/he bleeds, not you. And it doesn’t work the other way around. But our feelings are connected, and you could feel hurt WITH them, while when you subtract 2 with 1, you’re left with just 1. Not every rule applies to every other rule when it concerns human mind.

Today, I asked my friend what she thinks about harming others verbally, or physically. She said whatever you do to others; others have the right to do it back to you. If you don’t want someone to treat you badly, you shouldn’t do it to them either. I don’t think it’s a discrimination or intolerance to Fidget’s thought/belief if someone tried to explain it to her. She disrespected others and claimed to be hurt when others disrespected her. In the end, everyone has their feelings hurt. Why? Because the mature people are too afraid to step in, afraid that their actions could be called intolerance/discrimination? Why fear to improve something, to make something better? Online life is different from the real world, I know. You can throw nasty words at each other and turn the computer off, no problem. But when we get hurt, are our feelings any less real from when it happens in the real world? Isn’t that why some take actions to make the world a better place for everyone else? Isn’t that why some try to reach out for the rainbow in the skies, so that others wouldn’t have to live in gray anymore?

But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people, here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?

I don’t get the impression of you being homophobia in this statement at all. You weren’t trying to degrade homosexuality.

Homosexuality needs time to be really and fully accepted...
I'm against the fact persons could be agressive against others because they are homosexual but i understand they could be shocked...if they don't lie about their own feelings.

I agree it would take time to be accepted more, but it would not happen if we just try to understand homophobia and not doing anything to enlighten them. Maybe we could lessen their hate? Maybe they would change our mind, and we would begin to think like they do? Honesty isn’t always right. Honesty doesn’t always get you somewhere. It’s the mind and body that could take you far, if you exercised them.

[spyretto]

But I could understand that some persons still could be shocked by the idea of homosexuality...because it 's in conflict with the education they have had...
How many people, here, have suffered when they discovered they were homosexual?..just because it was in conflict with the education they have had!...
Does it means I'm homophobic because I say that?

I think that It is also something that deviates from the norm, it is not only the education. We, as human sociable beings, want to be accepted by the others, want to be liked, and finding out that you're a homosexual may pose a problem as to whether you're going to be treated as equal, whether you are going to be accepted. Yet, everybody finds their way eventually and come to terms with what one is. So in the end we tend to like ourselves the way we are and we wouldn't change it, even if that deviates from common perception.

[nath]

Originally posted by uhaku
Today, I asked my friend what she thinks about harming others verbally, or physically. She said whatever you do to others; others have the right to do it back to you.

..Uhaku..thanks for your answer....but.....hihi....i don't agree with this sentence....
This is the "Talion Law"!....it leads out of all humanity...it leads to the jungle, the barbary!..it destroyes all the rules that men built to be civilized!..
Even if others act in a crual way, you HAVE TO STAY FAITHFULL WITH YOUR COUNCIOUSNESS, WITH YOUR IDEA OF THE RIGHT!....and not fall in that you blame in the other just because you were hurt...
This my conception...

[Uhaku]

Originally posted by sunwalk

This is the "Talion Law"!....it leads out of all humanity...it leads to the jungle, the barbary!..it destroyes all the rules that men built to be civilized!..
[/b]

I can see how you think of the statement. I blinked a few times when she said that, too. But then, I realized that she didn't mean if someone kills your mother, you have the right to kill their mother, too. I believe she meant it in a philosophical way. If you wish for peace, you, yourself, have to be the one who keeps it. If you wish for war, you are the only one who could make it happen (because others would not simply stand still and take a slap in their face), right?

[Uhaku]

Originally posted by sunwalk

Even if others act in a crual way, you HAVE TO STAY FAITHFULL WITH YOUR COUNCIOUSNESS, WITH YOUR IDEA OF THE RIGHT!....and not fall in that you blame in the other just because you were hurt...
This my conception...

That sounds noble to me. But I'm only human. My heart may be broken, but I wouldn't let someone slap me on both cheeks without putting up a fight. It could be a fight for an explanation. And their answer could deter my belief. Who knows? Why not finding out? Why just stand firmly by what you already know and as a result, stop searching? I don't mean we have to leave our belief behind. But life is full of surprises. What we might find tomorrow might change us forever? Maybe we will believe in something else tomorrow?

[nath]

Originally posted by uhaku
I believe she meant it in a philosophical way. If you wish for peace, you, yourself, have to be the one who keeps it. If you wish for war, you are the only one who could make it happen (because others would not simply stand still and take a slap in their face), right?

Mind way, mind behaviour is the same as physicall , no..?...
I saw the sentence in the opposite side...
If someone wishes for war, should I have to wish for war too because he/she did?...
If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...
It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is ?
If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...

[spyretto]

If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...
It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is ?
If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...

It's better...and will save you from a lot of problems...

[Uhaku]

Originally posted by sunwalk
[b]Mind way, mind behaviour is the same as physicall , no..?...

People don't always do what they think, do they? That's why people lie, cheat, betray one another.

If someone wishes for war, should I have to wish for war too because he/she did?... If I wish for war, if I have the same behaviour that I blame on the other , I'm unfaithfull with myself, with my consciouness no?...

Because you don't agree on harming others, then it seems to be unfaithful to yourself if you think that you might want to. But I'm speaking of some people who could care less about others. Hurting others may not be in their consciousness, then. So they're not unfaithful to their belief. But I'm not saying that their belief is right.

It isn't better to try to explain to the other and , if it doesn't work, to ignore the other...to leave the other for what he/she is?

This is what I've been trying to say. Yes, we should try to explain to one another. If it doesn't work, so? Because nothing we do today might pay off tomorrow. It might not pay off in our life time, even. But it *might* be something in the future. Some little things we do today might mean a lot in the next generation. Why give up? I'm not saying we should keep stalking those who disagree with us in *any subject*. It's not that. I'm saying we shouldn't give up when we see other human beings are treated unfairly because of their race, sexuality, etc. You might be able to take it from others. But some might need help. Someone out there we don't even know. Why not thinking beyond ourselves, beyond our door, out of our communities?

If he/she goes too far , you have the Law to defend your rights....but why to degrade yourself just by a simple desire of revange?...

It isn't degrading. It's for defending oneself. Law isn't always there for you. We're humans and are full of flaws. Laws, too. Sometimes if you don't fight for yourself, nobody will. It isn't always about revenge.

[ypsidan04]

Originally posted by spyretto
yes, I know, Darje, that was a joke actually - about cannibalism. But what I said there still stands. You're free to say what you want, of course. But if I wrote something like, ahem Yulia has a nice ahem and ahem, I'd like to ahem, I wouldn't feel too proud about that either.
It doesn't matter what I'd think about that

Oh, come on spyretto. This is a straight guy talking, and even I know the difference between eating and "eating" like she said. Jokes are jokes, and I found that quite amusing (besides, I definitely agree that "pancakes" is a gross misnomer - just look at TvA's current desktop). We all know there's a fair amount of homosexual people here, and we have to expect the unexpected.

Originally posted by spyretto

1.A example: I read from time to time that certain people hate Tatu cause they're "lesbians" - this is the spontaneous, initial reaction Tatu can cause to some people.

2.Heterosexual fans of Tatu are still the minority here.

1. I respect the right of people to hate them because "they don't write the music or play instruments". ( ) BUT...ANYONE who hates them just because they are "lesbians" or just because they dress provocatively sometimes is going to get an earfull from me. Those people are despicable. This is how Lena and Yulia choose to live their life. Anyone who puts someone down for that is not a good person in my book. Whenever someone has said that the ATTSS video (or Tatu in general) is soft-pornography or paedo-pop, that just makes me want to slap them - seriously! Who do they think they are? The protectors of the world from something they think is "gross" or "unnatural"? Have they forgotten that there are different opinions, and that the world doesn't revolve around them? If they think that Tatu is going to "corrupt" their daughters, then don't let em watch MTV! (or just get the hell over it, and let em do what they want - God forbid any more girls in this world becoming lesbians! - ). I have no respect whatsoever for homophobic people.

"I don't understand why they've forbidden our videos or why they seem too shocking for some of the prudes in Britain. We're not trying to shock people. We sing about love. And we're sincere."
"We are free, we can do whatever we want".

2. I dont know about that. I can say however, that male fans are a minority for sure.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally posted by darje
PowerPuff Grrl, well, Fidget could slap me. I'd probably pinch her nose, say "what a cute gesture" and walk away because my policy is to never hit girls. :P

Sonix, on the other side, we know nothing of him, wether he jokes or not. He lives in a troubled side of the world and I'm kind of convinced that his beliefs are guided by some mistaken ideal of what should be and should not be. Following Forre's example for once, I say that while he isn't around to defend his case, we don't talk about him. It might agravate you that he actually is around but we are talking about giving a fair trial to anyone whose beliefs breach anyone else's.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go officialy close a thread and start a helluva complicated game. :P

Please don't end this discussion prematurely, it hasn't even been resolved properly. Obviously you don't know much him so you can't make a fair assessment of out him. However others can. Moderators even. Just ask around.

His presence isn't a requirement him to be judged on the grounds of racism. His posts speak for himself. He constantly says that he never jokes even when describing his "occupation". And even if he were joking would that honestly be excuseable? Would you say the same thing if I said anything homophobic granted, of course, if I was joking? Considering the state of the forum now, I'm guessing I would at least have a major warning, if not an inactive membership, if I did. Oh, and I hope you were joking when you implied his comments be disregarded because he's from South Africa.

My "aggravation" is misinterpreted here (btw, aggravation is such an understatement). You see, being a newbie when he was around, all I ever saw from his posts were disturbing views on Blacks, Hitler, and the unappreciated glory of fascism. I was only slighty offended by his views but never really angered. I knew that they were only his views. But what I didn't now was that he didn't have the right to express his racism, but of course I was just a newbie... what did I know, besides it wasn't my responsibility.

What I am pissed about though is that all this time racism was tolerated even though it clearly went against the Forum Member Rules:

On this Forum, It Is Forbidden::
3. To discriminate other members concerning religion, sexual orientation and other personal beliefs!

When homophobia surfaces it is dealt with startling efficiency:

Originally posted by haku
I was hurt by the following quotes:

forre: That is a discrimination based on sexual preferences. Bad .. bad .. very bad! Kate is warned. Thanks for reminding.

But with racism...

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
My reason for hating the blacks and the coloureds are numerous - they're destroying our economy, our infrastructure, our currency, even our f***ing LIVES!
...
Well, judging from the experience I've had with our black population during my life - THEY'RE ALL F***ING BRAINDEAD!
...
My pure-blood campaign would be against the blacks and colours from my country.

Concerning the Swatiska on his avatar:

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
Tell that to mir - why did he have to take offense to my swastika-containing avatar, even though I still have my old one up? Oh... could it possibly be because he's Jewish?!

He even poses a threat:

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
Wahtever your experience with Nazism or other extremist like that, we really don't care. Take your issues somewhere else, or end up at the coroner with a bullet in your eye. You have been warned...

And as to whether he was joking (which doesn't matter either way):

Originally posted by Silenced Sonix
I always take my work seriously - I have mentioned my job previously.

Anyhoo as I have said before, his posts speak for himself. His presence isn't required, the comments that were made he never took them back but rather stood by them. And I'll say it again, this may sound rather offensive however I really don't care what he said. What really ticks me off is that this is being swept under the rug almost as if nothing happened.

The inconsistencey found in the implementation of the Forum Rules is appalling.

PS: For anybody who wants to know this is where I got his statements.

[forre]

PowerPuff Grrl, applying the rules in one case and not the other doesn't automatically imply the rule of an overall non-application. Some cases are noticed and another ones are not. Want to claim anything - report the case to a moderator.