Middle-East

[xmad]

In a way I agree with almost all the comments.
Offtop:
Well,do you know what "hezbollah" means?? it means "soldiers of God". Wish I could ask them these questions. 1-when did the God want you to be his soldiers?
2-How did he say that?

Originally Posted by nath

When one person is condemned to the Death Penalty in the States, there are lots of posts but nobody condemns all the Deaths and all the violated Human Rights in Iran.

very true point.
Here in Iran we are not even allowed to talk about politic on the phone. Afew months ago when I was in Cyprus they warned my family about this. All they did was just ringing one of the Iranian channels in the US. They didnt even answer the phone.

[freddie]

Of course Israel accepted, they were offered half a territory that belonged to somebody else, who would say no to that? And of course Palestinians refused, half of their land was being stolen from them, who would accept such a 'deal'?

"Stolen"? You're using the extremist rhetoric here. A lot of that land was bought lawfully. Once you SELL something you can't just demand it back cause your people lived there in the past (btw... no one recognizes how the israelis had a presence in the region for 3 millenia as well). Maybe Russia should demand the return of Alaska from the US one of these days?

Originally Posted by Haku

The destruction of Lebabon was planned, no date was set, but it was planned, you don't send back an entire country to stone age just because of a border incident if you were not already planning to do it. And yes, Lenanon was a success story, all the more reasons for Israel to destroy it, Israel does not want healthy Arab countries on its borders, it wants agonizing Arabs struggling to stay alive.

That is absolute rubbish. Israel needs moderate Arab states more than anything else. It's the only hope it'll ever have of stabilization in the region and you can be sure Israeli people and it's leaders know that damn well. Do you think they purpusefully want to stir shit? What for? So they can get bombed some more? To invite a new wave of suidice bombers? It makes no sense to plan the destruction of Lebanon. Israel wants happy Arabs, cause that's the only way they themselves will live in peace. One thing it doesn't want though is happy arabs who still support extremist groups who's active political and military agenda is to drive Israelis into the sea. Healthy, moderate Arab countries are are a rare jewel, treasured by USA as well as Israel. But you can't count Lebanon as one of those for as long as they have Hezbollah in their parliament - so Lebanon can still be considered a satelite state of Syria. Let's not forget Lebanese goverment expressed it's utter helplessness when it comes to disarming the Hezbollah, which means the whole country got hijacked by an extremist military group trying to excite violence. They succeded and I bet they also knew damn well everybody will be as near-sighted to blame everything on Israel.

Originally Posted by dradeel

Israel's UN-ambassador ment that UN should never take part in any peacekeeping missions in Lebanon and made fun about UN interim forces saying "In UN interim means 28 years" - and that's right after they bombed the place to dust, killing 4 UN workers! - And he continued with claiming that the UN forces placed in the area were only there for being a buffer between Israel and Lebanon, not to help and maintain peace in Lebanon, and last that Hizbollah militants have been using the UN base for help and protection against Israel ... as if the UN base was cooperating with Hizbollah against Israel.

That's heavy accusations... I call that making fun of, and in a fairly presumptuous way.

If you thought that was meant as UN cooperating with Hezbollah you didn't understand it properly. What he said is Hezbollah was USING UN outposts for it's own human shield. Just as no one blames civilians who're being used by extremists to fire rockets from their homes. They're just a convenient shield.
I think Koffi Annan was much more presumpteous and arrogant when he claimed that the strike on UN forces was intentional before any sort of investigation was conducted.



I'm not pro-Israeli nor pro-Lebanese. I just think we have to look at all the variables before we completely lose every sense of perspective and start bashing the side we instictively label as "the aggressor". I maintain my stance that Israel's actions at this point aren't wise - not because they're not justfied, but rather because they'll strenghten the political might of extremist forces, yet I don't fool myself for a second that Israel wasn't provoked thorougly and systematically into this military enveavour. If anyone here is shameful and disgraceful it's the islamic militants who're using common civilians and infact an entire country to get their point across. Everybody seems to conveniently forget that there are two sides to this story. Everybody also forgets Israel did take steps to remedy the palestine question by pulling out of Gaza and they got bitch-slapped in return. And I'm sure they'd get bitchslapped again if they pulled out of Lebanon now - Hezbollah would interpret it as zionists finally giving up and they'd start attacking even MORE. Don't forget that their ultimate agenda is to drive jews out of middle east completely.
Of course quite a few people on this board think that'd be the proper thing to do. Because many arguments seem to fal back on that "Israel should never exist" shtick. Now even if you disregard those points I made about European jews actually BUYING the land from Arabs and the fact they've been present in the region for more time than any other ethnic group... there's still a fact of today's political reality which is that Israel's borderes are THERE. Like it or not. Those are internationally recognized borders of a country that's a full time members of the United Nations. Every claim how Israel shouldn't exist in useless and obsolete when dealing with today's political reality. If we play that game, where does it all end?! Should the USA exist? Maybe her majesty should anex the region back to her territorial domain and pronounce it part of the commonwealth again. Should Spain exist given the fact it represents a whole plethora of different ethnic groups who're not always that keen on coexisting in the realms of a same country?
See what I mean? That whole point about Israel's right to existance is moot and whoever discusses it again falls back on tabloid-like sensationalist level of Mahmud Ahmadinezhad.

[fanoff]

all these stuff cant explain nothing more than this pic,
or this pic.its war going on there,and its all against nature.i got nothing to say to those who think that the attack of Israel is based on reasonable actions,its just the thing Israel planned for years and this "kidnapping" is just an excuse as we,you,us all know.

[nath]

fanoff, You can find horrible pics in EACH camp...
But I agree with you that this "kidnapping is just an excuse and this invasion was planned for long time...
Now , here, each camp has its own reasons and its own logic.

[Rachel]

Offtop:
fanoff, this is one of the very very few times when we agree over a political matter

[dradeel]

Originally Posted by freddie

I'm not pro-Israeli nor pro-Lebanese. I just think we have to look at all the variables before we completely lose every sense of perspective and start bashing the side we instictively label as "the aggressor". I maintain my stance that Israel's actions at this point aren't wise - not because they're not justfied, but rather because they'll strenghten the political might of extremist forces, yet I don't fool myself for a second that Israel wasn't provoked thorougly and systematically into this military enveavour.

Well, yes, I do agree with you there. I don't think Israel are doing these things without a reason. And noone can defend what a terrorist organization is doing, but it's the way Israel is handling the situation that is beyond my grasp. This is not the way.... And how Israel is acting in world politics just makes it harder for the middle east to experience peace in any near future.

[fanoff]

Offtop:

Originally Posted by Rachel

Offtop:
fanoff, this is one of the very very few times when we agree over a political matter

there are still many ones who dont agree with me over that.btw i didnt know if you did disagree with me on a political subject.or let me guess,its that youre talking about the EU thing

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by fanoff

Offtop:
i didnt know if you did disagree with me on a political subject.or let me guess,its that youre talking about the EU thing

Offtop:
There's been several things - EU, religion and those cartoons of Mohammad. But this I definately agree with you about

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by dradeel

The necessity of having a Jewish state?

You want evidence that a Jewish state is necessary? Look no further than European History. The Russians and their Pale where they bascially imprisoned all Russian Jews for over a century. The Polish and their Ghettos and Pogroms which murder upwards of hundreds of thousand Jews. Then the Nazis and the Holocaust. The British and the internment of the survivors of the Holocaust. Plus, all European countries with the except of Denmark and Sweden have always had a very subtle anti-semitism within their own cultures. Go learn some of the history of the Jewish people because being Jewish is more than just a Religion. It's cultural and ethnic.

Israel and the Jews has no historic record of having more right over that land than anyone else. The old testament isn't worth a penny as a source for history.

Again go learn some history. Fuck the Old Testament. However, the ancient Hebrews civilization has been uncovered by many archeologists over the last few centuries which I think is enough proof thqat they lived in Israel (known as Caanan back in the day) for at least 2 thousand years before Christ minimum.

And another thing: You can't put one religion above others and say that this people deserve this land more than others, and then push those who live there aside for the jews to settle down..?

The only reason the Jews left Israel in the first place is because the Roman Empire forced them out in the great Diaspora and Jews have been trying to move back ever since.

defends Israel at any costs, careless of what the rest of the world thinks.

Because the US now has the worlds largest Jewish population and the American Jews are very good at lobbying the government. It honestly doesn't surprise me that Europe in general has always been against Israel, especially when you consider that outside Israel and the US their are only about 1 million Jews currently residing in Europe.

[dradeel]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Go learn some of the history of the Jewish people because being Jewish is more than just a Religion. It's cultural and ethnic.

I know very well that they have had alot of struggles through history, and for reasons that goes beyond the fact that they have their own religion! Do not underestimate me like that. But later generations can't be held responsible for the tragedies that forfathers have put upon the jewish people. Yes, the holocaust is recent. But if creating a jewish state were to be some kinda repayment to the jewish people, why place it where it was bound to be disagreements. As you said; the muslim world being anti-western happened a long time before making Israel. Even so, they still made it.

And just one thing, and aye, I know it's a silly question to ask ... but if a Jewish state was such a necessity; why haven't all Jews moved there?

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

It honestly doesn't surprise me that Europe in general has always been against Israel

Europe in general hasn't always been against Israel. We're backing Israel up just like many others, but a bit different. Norway pay tributes to Israel each year. Heavy tributes actually, and so does a lot of european countries, but can't we criticize and disagree with their actions still? UN was lead by Trygve Lie when Israel was made. Norway was more or less in the lead of the creation of a jewish state. And to this day Norway is still all over pretty Israel-friendly. My grandmom is very pro-Israel.

The fact that we were so stupid and sent our jews to Germany during WWII was much based on us being naive and afraid --- trying to avoid being targeted by the Germans. We should of course have done the same as our neighbours. Besides that I can't remember any incidents of "anti-semitism" in Norway...

[Khartoun2004]

Originally Posted by dradeel

I know very well that they have had alot of struggles through history, and for reasons that goes beyond the fact that they have their own religion!

that's not what I said nor what I meant. I was only pointing out the fact I think the Jewish have earned the right to have a safe place for all Jewish people free from the fear that the rest of world is going to wake up again someday and decide to blame all of their problems on us and try to eradicate all of us again. I know you'll probably say it "wopn't happen again", but guess what history says otherwise.

As you said; the muslim world being anti-western happened a long time before making Israel. Even so, they still made it.

As I said? I do not recall ever saying that. If you are refering to when I said:

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

yes because the western world is really suffering for it The western world's suffering started long before 1948.

My comments were in no way related to the middle east exclusively and I was being facetious.

And just one thing, and aye, I know it's a silly question to ask ... but if a Jewish state was such a necessity; why haven't all Jews moved there?

95% of the worlds European population that survived the holocaust moved there. Hundreds of American Jews give up their US citizenship in favor of gaining Israeli citizenship under the Israeli Law of Return. Many Jews are afraid to move to Israel because of all the Suicide bombings that happen almost daily there. Also, the Law of Return spacifically says that a person must have at least one grandparent that was Jewish. A lot of people convert and do not have Jewish grandparents and there fore are not considered by Israel to be Jewish by ethnicity and are not granted citizenship. Another reason being that some people just don't have the financial ability to pick up their lives and move to another country even if they wanted to.

Norway pay tributes to Israel each year. Heavy tributes actually, and so does a lot of european countries.

yeah because as you mention later in your post, your country handed over its Jewish population to be Murdered. There is a reason I excluded Denmark and Sweden in my last post. The reason being that the Danes instead of handing over their Jews, sent them to Sweden where they would be safe. Why? Because Sweden didn't hand them over. Jusitification for handing a mass group of people over to be slaughtered like animals because of fear of a tyrannt IS NOT justification! It's essentially accessory to murder. That's why Norway, Germany, Austria, ect have to pay retribution, which I might add is voluntary. It's those governments' way of saying, "Hey sorry for killing your families and almost exterminating your race."

[dradeel]

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

As I said? I do not recall ever saying that. If you are refering to when I said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
yes because the western world is really suffering for it The western world's suffering started long before 1948.
My comments were in no way related to the middle east exclusively and I was being facetious.

Sorry, then I slightly misunderstood. And I understood you were joking on the first sentence... Your smiley sorted for that. But it's a fact that the west is suffering tho, as I did answer in one post. And no, I don't blame Israel for it. But I think that if things were done otherwise after WWII these things wouldn't have happened...

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

I know you'll probably say it "wopn't happen again", but guess what history says otherwise.

Heh.. No I won't say that. I'd like to! But I won't... After WWI they said "never again", but what happened only a few decades later? Hell on earth... History has proven to be full of surprises, mostly bad ones :/ (now I talked wars tho, but same goes for Jewish history in specific..)

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

Also, the Law of Return spacifically says that a person must have at least one grandparent that was Jewish. A lot of people convert and do not have Jewish grandparents and there fore are not considered by Israel to be Jewish by ethnicity and are not granted citizenship.

Hmm.. I see.

Originally Posted by Khartoun2004

The reason being that the Danes instead of handing over their Jews, sent them to Sweden where they would be safe. Why? Because Sweden didn't hand them over. Jusitification for handing a mass group of people over to be slaughtered like animals because of fear of a tyrannt IS NOT justification! It's essentially accessory to murder.

Completely true. Couldn't agree more. And it's the biggest shame in Norwegian history. The Norwegian government after the war didn't take that lightly (which is why we were in lead of creating Israel)... but as I also said, it was because the government was being naive. Germany assured Norway that nothing bad were to happen with them. Their demand to the norwegian government were sent before anyone got to know that they were being placed in big camps for execution. And it didn't take long before they had occupied us and could handle that as they wanted themselves anyways. And mind you, many people in Norway did work for the Jews to be sent to Sweden.

And the fact that Norway still pays tributes to Israel is abit more complex than "sorry for exterminating your race", well, I hope...

[forre]

The draft resolution presented at the U.N.

[Khartoun2004]

I applaud the UN on this draft resolution. It seems fair to me and it requires the lebanese government to step up to the plate and actually control its own territory instead of allowing terrorist groups like Hizbollah do it for them. However, I do not think this resolution will actually come to fruition unless Hizbollah holds up their end of the bargain by returning the captured Israeli soldiers immediately.

[haku]

While everyone's attention is on Lebanon, Israel has been quietly operating in the West Bank as well. Israel has never been happy with the results of the last elections in Palestinian territories, so Israel has simply decided to "arrest" the elected officials they don't like, how very convenient.
That kind of operations shows that the Palestinian territories have become nothing more than bantustans, territories granted with a fake automomy (the fact that Israel can kidnap and throw in jail *elected* officials with no charges and no trial for an indefinite period of time shows how inexistant that automomy is) which allows Israel to deprive their populations of full citizenship (and use them as a cheap workforce with no rights) while keeping effective control on those territories.


Also, Israel has already violated the ceasefire in Lebanon, but of course the usual double standards apply, Israel can continue the attacks on Lebanon under the 'ceasefire' but Lebanon is not allowed to defend itself.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Palestine killed two Israeli soldiers and kidnapped another on June 25. Not to mention that ever since the Gaza pull-out Palestinian militants have actually increased their attacks on Israel.
And ever since the cease-fire Hezbollah has launched 250 Katyusha rockets into Israel.

Double standards indeed, Israel should just chill.

[haku]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

And ever since the cease-fire Hezbollah has launched 250 Katyusha rockets into Israel.

I haven't seen that reported anywhere, if a single rocket had landed in Israel after the ceasefire, Israel would have considered it a breach of ceasefire and jumped on the occasion to resume the massive bombing of Lebanon.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Obviously you don't know about it, because when I said Israel I actually meant southern Lebanon and when I said it was 250 rockets, I actually meant 10. Get it right this time!
Article

Considering that Israeli forces were leaving parts of Southern Lebanon for Lebanese and UN forces to look after, it kind of seemed like a cheap shot from the Hez'. Israel obviously wouldn't retaliate on that, especially when nobody was killed.

[forre]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Obviously you don't know about it, because when I said Israel I actually meant southern Lebanon and when I said it was 250 rockets, I actually meant 10.

Yes, I've seen the report on CNN. That's correct. The only thing is, I don't remember if it was before the UN resolution was signed or after. Btw, was it signed generally? Lol. Sorry, I've been out of circulation for some time.

[freddie]

Originally Posted by forre

Yes, I've seen the report on CNN. That's correct. The only thing is, I don't remember if it was before the UN resolution was signed or after. Btw, was it signed generally? Lol. Sorry, I've been out of circulation for some time.

It's a general resolution, yes. And those attacks were after the resolution. At the same time the Israeli attacks still ensued as well. So it was a nono from both parties. Silly middle-easterers.

A good friend of mine from Israel pointed out this link to me. Amusing.