Discussions on Islam and religion in general

[nath]

I have to go downtown so I will reply longer later.....just i can leave without replying to that ...
I was travelling near Christmas so I've lost a little the conversation...But i will reply longer in your other thread

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?

When will you understand that the people who have made riot belong to GANGS!!! Mob!!!

You say we don't treat well strangers? I just want to tell you something .....in other countries, all these "riotmen" would be in JAIL!!! Long time before the big riots.....cause they are just "banditos".....

Now if you perfer to believe them, instead of me when I tell you that , do it.....

You know I'm a teacher in a school in the middle of the habitation of immigrated population. In my school I think the proportion might be of 80% of kiddies from immigration (even if a lot of them have french nationality).
I wpork in this same school for 13 years.

May be 5 years ago we had new teachers who arrived there....I love them...I mean they are my friends....so they won't be I think if I was a pure "fascist, Racist, closed-mind" person.
When they arrived they were full of enthusiasm and were claining "The poors: it's the fault of society which treats them badly...." -as you seem to think it-....when I explained my ideas about this point , they were looking at me with big eyes, saying "Oh you are a little too hard"....
So I smiled as I often do it in tatysite, cause I know Time changes a lot in the vieaw of people.
And I've observed them.

2 weeks agao, before the Cartoons things, they spoke about that again....and now ....these young persons who are from pure left wing told me "You were right. We are absolutely disgusted cause they abuse at the maximum of the society....really France is too laxist/cool!!"
And they are became worse than me in their judgement!!...cause they were disappointed and have realised it.

So please, don't tell it's because we treat them badly!!!
Cause it's wrong.
In France, if you want you can live without working....just if you manage to explain how poor you are.....you have a lot of money which is given to you...education is FREE......you even get money to go to University if you are poor.....

So , of course , you will never rach the University if you prefer to use all your energy in dealing in the street since you are 10 years old, instead of trying to study.

It's a question of CHOICE.
Why do Asian people integrate in keeping their own culture? Cause they chose to STUDY....they want to success for getting a future job.

and don't tell me it's a question of langage: cause most of the time , Asian kiddies have their parents who don't speak French langage....instead of Muslim people . They often speak french without problem.

Just the mentatlity is different. And the RULES, the LAWS are different. I'm not sure that in Canada, they could do all the unlawed, illicite things they can do in France without having big problems!!!!

The problem in France is the Laxism!
As I've said previously , when you are in a country, you have Rights and Duties.
One of the main problem here is that people claim for the rights (and believe me , get them) but refuse the duties.
One of this Duty is just to Obey to the Law.

So please don't mix Gangsters with Immgration problem!

BUSINESS IS BUSINESS
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06153755.htm

[haku]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

I'm no trying to say that France is the only country that treats its immigrants like shit.

France does not treat its immigrants like shit, they immediately get most of the rights of any French citizen (social security, unemployment benefits, free education, etc.), and obtaining citizenship is extremely easy (way too easy if you ask me), it only takes 5 years of residency in France for an immigrant to obtain full citizenship and any child born on French soil (even if both parents are not French) is French by birth.
And let's remind here that obtaining citizenship in any EU country makes you by definition an EU citizen and gives you full access to the 25 member states.

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Honestly can you say that the people rioting last fall had access to those opportunities?

Like nath already said, those riots were not racially or religiously motivated, it was a gang response to a stricter security policy put in place by Nicolas Sarkozy (Minister of Interior), those rioters were of all backgrounds and had no demands other than "Let us steal, deal and racket as much as we want".
And i don't know how those riots were portrayed abroad, but i'll remind that nobody was killed or even seriously injured (it's in times like these that it's a good thing to be in a country where guns are banned), it was mostly small groups setting fire to random properties at night, physical violence was rare.

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

why Muslim find it sooo hard to integrate into France.

Because most of them don't want to integrate, or are only willing to integrate if France became a Muslim state.

The core of the problem is that France is a strictly laic republic, people must remember that the French revolution was done against the aristocracy *and* the clergy because at the time they were oppressing the people hand in hand, therefore both were removed from power and were equally considered a threat to freedom that had to be rooted out.
The French constitution guarantees that anyone is free to believe in any religion or not believe at all, but it also clearly states that religious beliefs have to be kept in the private sphere and are not allowed in the public sphere, that means that religion has to be kept out of politics and public institutions in general (justice, police, education, etc.).
No French politician would ever mention their religion or their beliefs publicly, in the US everyone knows the particular beliefs of any given politician for example, in France we don't care and we don't want to know, no French politician would ever mention 'god' in a speech, they would be immediately considered a religious fanatic (which is why many French people think Bush is a Christian fanatic, because he mentions god all the time in his political declaration which is totally unthinkable in France).

And that's the main problem, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Shintoists, Atheists, whatever, they *all* understand the principles of the French republic to keep religion strictly in the private sphere, but Muslims don't. They push their religion in our faces all the time and they want to impose their beliefs to the entire population, they get offended because we eat pork, they get offended because we drink alcohol, they get offended because French women show quite a lot of skin in Summer, they get offended because we have nudity in the media, and as we've seen recently, they get offended because we allow freedom of expression and criticism of religion. They don't respect our culture, they don't want to integrate the nation, they refuse to embrace our values, in many aspects they still have the same mentality as the Muslim warriors who invaded Europe in the 8th century and tried to convert all of us to Islam, they think that they are holding the only truth: *Islam*, and that all of us should adopt *their* beliefs.
Maybe it has also something to do with the geographical proximity with the countries of origin, most of those Muslim immigrants go back over there every year on vacation, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation it doesn't matter, they all go back regularly and whatever adaptation to European culture they may have undergone while in Europe, it's quickly wiped away during their stay in their countries of origin and they come back as if they were fresh new immigrants, making integration nearly impossible.

Most Muslims are here to use and take, not to integrate and be a part of, they want the benefits without the duties. Recently a rap band (with Muslim members) released a song that quite sum up the way they see things, basically the song was saying "France is a whore, fuck her, use her, do what you want."
Or to show another aspect of that attitude, last year a documentary about young French Muslims was shown on TV, it had been made after a Muslim teenage girl had been burned alive by Muslim teenage boys (basically because she had become "too French", a "whore"). Those Muslim boys were asked if they ever socialized with non Muslim girls and they all answered something like this "Sure, if we want to get laid we're going to go see some French sluts, French girls are easy lays, they're all whores, Muslim girls have to remain pure virgins until marriage so that's why we go to French whores to have fun, but we'd never marry one of those whores, we'll only marry good Muslim virgins." Of course by 'whore' they don't mean actual prostitutes, they just mean any French woman who's not Muslim.
And whens asked "What would you do if you discovered that your sister had sex before marriage?", they answered "I would beat her up, a good Muslim girl must remain pure, if she's not a virgin at marriage she brings shame on the whole family", and when asked "And if boys have sex before marriage it does not bring shame?", they answered "No, no, it's different for boys, it's only for girls."
And notice that in that same neighborhood, non Muslim women were regularly harassed and insulted by those same boys if they had the audacity to wear a skirt or show a bit of cleavage. And those boys were 3rd generation, French by birth, and yet their whole mentality was like they had come from Saudi Arabia that very morning, a blatant refusal to integrate French society.

And i wanted to add that integration is no guarantee against Muslim violence anyway, the Muslims who made the attacks in London's subway were fully integrated, educated middle class British citizens and yet they still hated European culture and wanted to kill random Europeans in the name of god.

[fanoff]

why you always say it as muslim violence?do you think all the muslim people are violent?which one of us intolerant to the other?isnt there any christians who kill muslims?and do you think thats ok but the opposite is wrong?(i think the both are nonsense)there must be questions for those(it isnt an order,freedom of expression)

[crni]

a croatian weekly paper has shown muhamed's pic also and a huge riot happened yesterday in sarajevo (bosnia)... of course, they burned croatian flag, but also danish and french...

some crazy sh*t!!

[spyretto]

Yeah, I agree that muslim fundamentalists are pretty fucked up but of course the western press would fan the flames a bit more in defense of the "freedom of speech".
This whole issue has blown completely out of proportion..lets see where the new nonsense will lead us. Do people have to die over this?

[nath]

Originally Posted by fanoff

why you always say it as muslim violence?do you think all the muslim people are violent?which one of us intolerant to the other?isnt there any christians who kill muslims?and do you think thats ok but the opposite is wrong?(i think the both are nonsense)there must be questions for those(it isnt an order,freedom of expression)

We have just replied to explain that the origine of the violence which was in France wasn't because France treats badly its immigrants, as this is so, so easy to say.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally Posted by nath

When will you understand that the people who have made riot belong to GANGS!!! Mob!!!

You say we don't treat well strangers? I just want to tell you something .....in other countries, all these "riotmen" would be in JAIL!!! Long time before the big riots.....cause they are just "banditos".....

Now if you perfer to believe them, instead of me when I tell you that , do it.....

Hey chill out! I believe you.
For me it's not hard to believe that a lot of these immigrants aren't exactly "model citizens," to put it lightly. It's just hard to believe that they have always been like that, ever since they first stepped into France.

What I'm wondering is what came first? Are these shifts in attitudes in France all reactionary?
Did the French Muslims start becoming menacing as a reaction to discrimination in France or did the French natives react negatively to Muslim immigrants as a result to Muslim aggression (assuming that Muslims were initially aggressive)?

I mean you may say that France doesn't discriminate but it's kind of hard to believe when you hear stories like this and take into account that North Africans started emigrating to France around the 60s and that Islamic fundamentalism didn't really kick off until the 80s. Back then it was more about nationalism, a Pan-Arabian movement if you will.

I get the impression that Muslims weren't always like this, but then I didn't in France back then so I obviously I can't really say.

Originally Posted by Amber

Maybe it has also something to do with the geographical proximity with the countries of origin, most of those Muslim immigrants go back over there every year on vacation, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation it doesn't matter, they all go back regularly and whatever adaptation to European culture they may have undergone while in Europe, it's quickly wiped away during their stay in their countries of origin and they come back as if they were fresh new immigrants, making integration nearly impossible.
...
And i wanted to add that integration is no guarantee against Muslim violence anyway, the Muslims who made the attacks in London's subway were fully integrated, educated middle class British citizens and yet they still hated European culture and wanted to kill random Europeans in the name of god.

I think you touched on something really important here. The tendency for Muslims to go back to Muslim countries and return completely different is something not entirely foriegn to me. My Father has always told me that Eritrea never had any schisms between Christians and Muslims and that Muslims considered themselves first as Eritrean, then Muslim. In other words, they were, and are, extremely moderate.
The only exception, I find, would be those who at one point stayed in Saudi Arabia. Gorgeous women who would flaunt their good looks and flirt with any guy suddenly appear docile and in hijabs and stay away from all men within a 10 metre radius. Men distancing themselves away from Christian Eritreans forming their own cliques, or merging with other Muslims cliques. Moreover, and this is what genuinely got to me, they would claim that Eritrea is not part of Africa but rather the Middle East, that they aren't African but rather Arab, and they pledge more of an allegiance with any Muslim (even an Ethiopian!!!) than an Eritrean.
All this right after being in Saudi Arabia.
And it reminds me, isn't that what people said about the first terrorist bombers in London. Friends said that before their parents sent them off to madrassas (sp?) in Pakistan they were extremely friendly and outgoing and were like any other "British lad."

Originally Posted by nath

The problem in France is the Laxism!
As I've said previously , when you are in a country, you have Rights and Duties.
One of the main problem here is that people claim for the rights (and believe me , get them) but refuse the duties.
One of this Duty is just to Obey to the Law.

Hmmm...
As Amber has mentioned before with the rampant gang rapes of any women not wearing hijabs something I have heard in the past, it never surprises that these people rape, their monsters and that is what monsters do. Instead, it surprises me that the people who do the rape, and other serious crimes, are rarely ever caught. Like you said nath, France is lax. Why the hell was law never really enforced when it came to governing Muslim immigrants, until now? The impressions I get is that you can pretty much get away with murder if it is done in a French ghetto.

Perhaps this lax law enforcement combined with the emergence of Islamic extremism produced the predicament you're going through now. It would certainly explain why Muslims specifically, and not other immigrants, resist integration so often.
I don't know... what are you're thoughts?


PS: Though it upset me that an obscure country like Eritrea had to be brought into the international spotlight through terrorism it did, however, make me laugh that those bastards failed to kill anybody, refused to kill themselves over it and that their Fathers helped out with their arrests.
Because that is honestly so typically African!

[nath]

Patrick, if you could make a resume of this info , please cause I haven't found it in english.
France-info is a very serious radio of information.
http://www.radiofrance.fr/chaines/fr...22221.1dga153p
And what is said there is no surprising at all. But may be you could resume it too, PowerPuff Grrl, if you live at Canada.

I don't escape your question...will answer to you....may be even a part of the answer is in this article....just I need to go out to appreciate a little my holidays.
See you soon

[forre]

"CNN is not showing the negative caricatures of the likeness of the Prophet Mohammed because the network believes its role is to cover the events surrounding the publication of the cartoons while not unnecessarily adding fuel to the controversy itself."

CNN.com

[haku]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

All this right after being in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is definitely the main source of the problem, it is the one country which has access to trillions of dollars from the petrol and use them to finance terrorism worldwide but also the 're-education' of Muslims everywhere. Saudi Arabian Islamic leaders have never hidden that they consider that Muslims living in Europe have been 'corrupted' and 'perverted', they have sent radical imams everywhere in the Arab world and Europe to 're-educate' Muslims to a much 'purer' form of Islam that happens to be extremely aggressive toward everything that is not Islamic. They also organize trips for young European Muslims to Saudi Arabia where they are brainwashed and reprogrammed as radical Muslims, and when they come back they are full of hate and intolerance, and imams also trained in Saudi Arabia are there to keep them in that spirit.
As far as i know, European Muslims were actually better integrated 30 to 50 years ago, it's the new generation (3rd or even 4th generation being born in the host country) that is causing trouble, and not because they are mistreated or rejected, but because they have become so radical and intolerant that integration in European society is no longer possible.
The result is people like Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh, and dozens of random citizens in Madrid and London being brutally murdered by intolerant Muslims right on European soil, showing that integration of Muslims in Europe has not only failed but has become a threat to our security.

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

it surprises me that the people who do the rape, and other serious crimes, are rarely ever caught.

Gang rapes to punish a 'bad Muslim girl' (generally just because she was acting a bit 'too European' which is of course extremely bad) are unfortunately not rare (i don't know how gang raping a 14 year old girl makes you a good Muslim but whatever).
However, it's extremely hard for the police to do anything, first of all because generally they don't even know the gang rape happened because the girl is rarely brought to an hospital, and second because even when they hear about it, nobody will press charges, believe or not, none of the families see anything wrong with the gang rape, neither the family of the victim or the families of the boys who raped her, they all blame only the girl and consider that she 'tempted' the boys with her evil female charms and was rightfully punished for acting like a European whore.

Originally Posted by nath

Patrick, if you could make a resume of this info , please cause I haven't found it in english.
France-info is a very serious radio of information.

Yeah, the article is basically saying (well, was, the link has changed, i don't know why) that the whole cartoon controversy was orchestrated by imams living in Denmark, they took some caricatures and photos (some fake actually) and brought them to some Islamic leaders in the Middle East to create an uproar and anti-European riots. Those imams added much more to the story than there really was to cause even more controversy, for example they told in the Middle East that Europeans were burning Korans in the streets and were making fun of the prophet dressed like pigs, as proof of that they showed in the Middle East a picture of a man wearing fake pig ears and nose and said it was supposed to be Mohammed, but in reality this picture had been taken at a pork festival and the guy was just a mascot or something and it had nothing to do with religion at all (but who knows, maybe even a pork festival in Europe is enough to offend Muslims these days and make them wanna blow us up).

[freddie]

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

But are they even true believers? Because even the moderate ones get me thinking.

Anyhoo, that link is hilarious, such a pity that the guy lives in Gaza, If he were American he'd be a gazillionaire. You have to admire that kind of capitalist ingenuity.

At least I HOPE they're some who truly believe. As in... believe and understand Islam the way it's futily been preached: as a religion of peace. What's the point otherwise, seriously? To not believe in moderates who actually have some common sense is the same as proclaiming the whole religion as a gathering of savages who dwell upon thoughts of segregating eachother from other infidels who'll go to hell anyway.

Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl

Though I'm fully aware that Europe has all sorts of schisms between countries, I'm sorry but you can't possibly compare Polish and Portuguese immigrants with Non-European ones. Geographically speaking, you live just two doors down from each other on either end and historically believe in the same faith. I know that these immigrants first experienced some mega-hardships when first living in France but eventually their children were able to exceed. See where I'm getting at here? The second generation of immigrants are supposed to exceed, regardless of where they are from. Why isn't this happening with the Muslims, particularly in Europe (excluding the UK, and possibly Ireland)? Why is it happening in other places but in Europe?

Clash of the titans. European tradition and pride versus an entirely different (and to us extremely foreign) tradition of Islam. I think it's all in the way liberalism was fought for in Europe. Liberal ideals had to be enforced and power stripped away from organized religion. It makes an average European inherently suspicious when it comes to a religion so deeply fundamental and uncompromising. Even more so than christianity and we all know most enlightened scholars roll their eyes seeing a narrow-minded, homophobic conservative leading the roman catholic church. Islam is that times hundred and twenty-five. That leads to mutual distrust. Which leads to fear. Which leads to people being unable to coexist in harmony.

Not to mention things get even worse in these trubled times, since there's a huge cultural gap about the West and Islam as it is. Being needlessly provoked further by Bush's mindless chatter of war against terror being the new crusades.

Originally Posted by forre

"CNN is not showing the negative caricatures of the likeness of the Prophet Mohammed because the network believes its role is to cover the events surrounding the publication of the cartoons while not unnecessarily adding fuel to the controversy itself."

In other words... they chickened out.

Originally Posted by amber

"Saudi Arabia is definitely the main source of the problem, it is the one country which has access to trillions of dollars from the petrol and use them to finance terrorism worldwide but also the 're-education' of Muslims everywhere.

So all shall be well as soon as oil-wells dry out. But seriously... I don't consider those imams gathering new recrites as any more harmful than those ridiculous mormon boys from Utah, traveling all over the world, trying to turn people towards the REAL religion. People of sound mind still have their own ideas of what's right and what's wrong. Whether they'd be Muslim, Christian, Jewish or atheist. This shouldn't be the real cause behind all the extremes we've been witnessing. Those Saudi preachers are just exploiting a problem that's been here to begin with.

[haku]

Oh and it hasn't been mentioned here yet, but French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo has released a special "Mohammed" issue this week, LOL, it has sold twice more copies than usual. Charlie Hebdo is an extremey famous newspaper here, a real institution.

They even talk about it on wikipedia (bottom of the page, 2006 paragraph)…
On the BBC…
And here's some scans, i haven't been able to find bigger ones.

And Charlie Hebdo is not "anti Muslim", it's a satirical newspaper that has been around since the 1960s and hits everyone and everything to expose hypocrisy and stupidity wherever it may be.

[marina]

Offtop:
i'm ashamed to ask , so it's going to be very small and white....what exactly is wikipedia? a couple of years back i never heard of this ...and now , in China , i'm not able to open any page of this.

[haku]

Originally Posted by marina

Offtop:
i'm ashamed to ask , so it's going to be very small and white....what exactly is wikipedia? a couple of years back i never heard of this ...and now , in China , i'm not able to open any page of this.

Offtop:
Well, wikipedia has a page on… wikipedia, lol, so here's the definition it gives of itself.

Wikipedia is a multilingual Web-based free-content encyclopedia wiki service. Wikipedia is written collaboratively by volunteers, allowing most articles to be changed by anyone with access to a web browser. The project began on January 15, 2001, as a complement to the expert-written Nupedia and is now operated by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Wikipedia has more than 3,380,000 articles, including more than 964,000 in the English-language version, and as of February 2006 it has more than 910,000 registered users.

I hope that helps. It's a shame that you don't have access to it, it's a very useful site and a quick way to find practically anything about anything.

[nath]

Offtop:
Oh Marina! Do you have a bigger pic of My Cheburaska like that, please?!!!.....
I LOVE him......Is it the new "mascott" of Russia for Winter Games???
Me I want it.......Could you find an adress for I buy it please?...
Spassibo to my favourite "Marina Russian Google" ...hihi....

[marina]

Offtop:
Amber , thank you very much !
nath , yes , it's a new white *Cheburashka* for russian team in Torino2006
I saw it this morning in here and made an avatar for myself. I don't really know where to buy a toy like this ...but i will keep looking

[freddie]

Originally Posted by Amber

Offtop:
I hope that helps. It's a shame that you don't have access to it, it's a very useful site and a quick way to find practically anything about anything.

Offtop:
Yes but you need to remain critical of the contents. It's greatest strenght is at the same time it's greates weakness: anyone can add information, which causes many articles to have some severe errors. I still love it, though.

[PowerPuff Grrl]

Originally Posted by Amber

As far as i know, European Muslims were actually better integrated 30 to 50 years ago, it's the new generation (3rd or even 4th generation being born in the host country) that is causing trouble, and not because they are mistreated or rejected, but because they have become so radical and intolerant that integration in European society is no longer possible.
The result is people like Pim Fortuyn, Theo van Gogh, and dozens of random citizens in Madrid and London being brutally murdered by intolerant Muslims right on European soil, showing that integration of Muslims in Europe has not only failed but has become a threat to our security.

So shouldn't it be this fanatical Islam that you should be frustrated at and not just Muslim immigrants. Of course, I don't want to tell you what you should be angry at but it seems that you feelings kind of displaced. Like, because of these people you feel that integration of anyone anywhere can never work.

Or at least that is what I get from you.

Originally Posted by nath

I don't escape your question...will answer to you....may be even a part of the answer is in this article....just I need to go out to appreciate a little my holidays

Take your time. Enjoy the weekend.
And thank you, nath, Amber and freddie for taking the time to inform me about this, I definitely got a clearer picture from all of what guys have told me.

Originally Posted by freddie

At least I HOPE they're some who truly believe. As in... believe and understand Islam the way it's futily been preached: as a religion of peace. What's the point otherwise, seriously? To not believe in moderates who actually have some common sense is the same as proclaiming the whole religion as a gathering of savages who dwell upon thoughts of segregating eachother from other infidels who'll go to hell anyway.

It isn't so much that I don't even trust the moderates or the truly faithful. But the religion itself, the way it is being followed has me thinking. There's this undercurrent of Arab imperialism at work, I find.
They say that Allah is all encompassing and infinite, mighty and powerful; Allah is everywhere. So why pray specifically towards Mecca? Why can't the Qur'an be translated in other languages without having its meaning watered down? If Allah's words are universal then surely it can stand translation. Why do Muslim's have to dress like an Arab in order to devout Muslims? Why are mosques design after Arab architecture? Why do devout Muslims call themselves Arabs when they aren't? Why do Arab Muslims often look down on non-Arab Muslims? Why is pre-Islamic history in Muslim countries not discussed among the people of that country? Just because Arabs don't consider anything worth mentioning in their pre-Islamic history doesn't mean they have to enforce it to other nationalities. Why is Arab affairs always the primary concern of all Muslims but non-Arab Muslim affairs get no attention among Muslims?

etc, etc, etc...

I'm not saying that this is what Islam is all about, just that this is what Islam has become in my eyes. As I stated earlier Islam used to be a religion of intellect, devout Muslims of the past knew that there was knowledge outside of the Qur'an, they sought after it and preserved it for further use. Even the Dome of the Rock in Israel was originally designed by Orthodox Christians. Now, that kind of mentality is pretty much non-existent. Muslim extremists would never admit that there are valuable things to learn outside of their religion.

In other words... they chickened out.

The entire Western hemisphere chickened out. Fucking cowards. Since when do we listen, let down bend over for a bunch of maniacs burning down embassies. We sent a bad message to those fanatics; "burn down an embassy and we'll do whatever you tell us to do."

[nath]

PowerPuff Grrl, Just some little words to tell you that I have no negative view about the Coran, about this Religion "at the origine" (even if the religion doesn't evolve with the society..but it's the case and the limitation of all the religions).
I just have a problem with those who disturn the Coran for personnal, political and powerful reasons.

If you know a lot of Muslims, just check the number of those who know really know their own religion....and if yourself know it enough , you will be surprised by the huge number of people who, indeed, know so little about their religion.....that's where is the danger.

For example, the sourates, they are know them "by heart"(as Christians when the offices were said in Latin langage)..i don't know how to say that in english....they are learnt with the sounds....some people know the general meaning but very few could translate them word by word....
Indeed , not all Arabic people know the "Litteral Arab Langage"...so not so much have a direct access to those texts....

So it's so easy to deform them and to orientate people into a direction which is , indeed, very far from the original text which is a message of Tolerance.

I think it's sad. This manipulation is sad. I'm against this manipulation and its effects. That's all. l

[rosh]

i think nath is trying to say the surats [chapters of the quran] are memorised by heart by lots of muslims who will learn the exact inflection of every letter tied to every word, but dont even know what they are memorising. just as an aside, people who memorise the quran are termed haafiz [hufaaz is the plural] and it literally means "protector", since someone who memorises all of the quran is thought to be protecting it in this way as well.