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Evolutionary Biology replaced by Bible Studies in American Schools.


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Old 05-08-2004, 22:03   #21
Kate Kate is offline
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spyretto, obviously, you're not very well informed on evolution. Humans did not rise from fish, so to speak.
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Old 05-08-2004, 22:10   #22
spyretto spyretto is offline
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And what makes you think that they rose from the apes then? I thought that theory was so passe; already.
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Old 05-08-2004, 22:15   #23
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spyretto, there is lots of fossil and molecular evidence. You should read Scientific American sometimes, before it's banned by Bush.
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Old 05-08-2004, 22:29   #24
spyretto spyretto is offline
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I don't believe in those theories in that sense. If Man evolved from the ape, why wasn't a different species evolved into something similar, why don't we have intelligent lizards or cats?

I think that Darwin was referring to changes within the same species, in order to adapt to changes in their enviroment, and that can occur over several thousands of years.
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Old 05-08-2004, 22:39   #25
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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well spyretto, during the precambian eon, there wasn't any land creatures... they may not be what we consider fish, many of them were as simple as krill and other 1 celled organisms. Then there was a mass extinction, the largest in the worlds history, as much as we can gather, Then comes the eon we're from... the world started from these celled organisms and developed as they needed to where they would be, into lizards, amphibians, mammals, fish and birds. The mammals developed into their own separate species. Now to say that we are descendents of Apes can seem a bit far fetched... but we are the descendants of a creature called the Australopithicus, which was Ape-Like, but the biggest difference between IT and Apes was the way that it's spinal cord connected to it's skull. In fact, it's one of those things that separate us from the Apes, and our CONTROL of the opposable thumb :: Apes have opposable thumbs, they just can't move them like we do, they can't touch each separate finger with their thumb, for example :: we aren't really the decendents of any kind of fish... and the reason that we are more developed then, say a cat, was because our species needed to evolve that way. Cats are as intelligent as they need to be, :: and perfect if you ask me :: ....

and yes, Kat a theory must have some facts but it's not completely to FACTUAL status, but a fact is undisputable. And i'm sorry, but evolution is VERY disputable :: haven't you noticed? ::... at least to some people.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:08   #26
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spyretto, because lizards and cats don't need to be as intelligent as we are to survive in their habitat. If we had the adaptions of a cat, we won't need our brain to protect us. Our brain is our only weapon, that's why we evolved it to this extent. To be honest, I'm rather dissapointed by your ignorance. You don't even know level one biology.

thegurgi, there were no birds before dinosaurs went extinct. Birds evolved from dinosaurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
but we are the descendants of a creature called the Australopithicus, which was Ape-Like, but the biggest difference between IT and Apes was the way that it's spinal cord connected to it's skull.
True, but not very well structured as an arguement. Every animal's spinal chord is connected to their skull. Duuuuh. What made Australopithecines different is that their spinal chord connected to the skull underneath it. Australopithecines' foramen magnum's position has moved to be positioned underneath the skull to support bipedalism. In other animals the forman magnum is positioned behind the skull.

And evolution is not disputable, if a person if well informed on evolution he will think again before rejecting it.

Last edited by Kate; 05-08-2004 at 23:27.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:20   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
The thing is it that scientists can't claim that evolution has been happening all this time in the way we can on other facts. Goku is right, it's rather arrogant to say so... and they can't claim it to be a fact, i know they want to. I believe that Evolution is a fact, but that's all we can really say.
Yes, you understand. Everything in the universe is relative. Anyone is welcome to believe whatever the would like to believe, but just because a larger group supports a theory, it does not make it any more true.

I don't believe in such a thing as undisputable facts. Everything can be disputed. Such as:
Quote:
Originally Posted by katbeidar
By the way, two interesting FACTS:

1). Champanzees and humans share 99% of genes. Only 1% of our genetic material is different.
We don't know 100% that genes create what we look like. We may be completely off, looking in the wrong area... Scientists do their job by attempting to explain what's around us. A lot of us presume whatever they say to be a fact. I was wondering about this fish theory. If all the scientists from the start had theorized that we came from fish, it would be supported like the monkey theory now, and coming from apes would sound ridiculous. Or maybe not. That's the immense size of science. We cannot look at just one path. Or two. A lot of our speculation can come from our imagination. There are infinite possibilities of what occured to create us. Yet only one truth. Are we here? Are we seeing chimps and hedgehogs and finches, or are they simulated programs like in the Matrix (cheesy cliché , but it presents the point of questioning our reality). Science for me, and it might be different for everybody, is about thinking outside of the box, raising more questions than answers, and questing for a truth impossible to find. Everything is what you believe it to be.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:21   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
To me, evolution seems as shaky as religion and the "fact" that Man has descented from the apes as proved as that he descent from a particular type of fish. You see, there are a lot of theories of evolution around.
From what I remember humans and apes developed from same ancestor. Not human from apes.

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Old 05-08-2004, 23:23   #29
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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Kat, i said "because of the WAY that it's spinal chord is connected to the skull" not because it's connected to the skull ... "the WAY"

and you're right, i made that mistake of mentioning birds,

but people will dispute Evolution if they refuse to believe, a fact HAS to be completely, utterly undisputable... i'm sorry, but's the way that i and all of my science teachers have taught me how to be... I believe that Evolution is fact, but that's me... because In my head there is no dispute.... but EVOLUTION IS DISPUTABLE because i'm sure that only 1/3 of the world REALLY believes in it.... but EVERY educated person believes that the world is Round: Fact, the earth revolves around the Sun: Fact.... evolution, sorry, no, not a fact... theory.

I'm just saying that to some people it's a theory, and because of that large group of people who see at as one makes not a fact...

some people aren't convinced of the Principles of Faunal Succession....

ahhh, the Paradigms of Geologic Time, that takes me back...

Goku, there are undisputable Facts, like "The Earth Has Life On It" ... "It gets light from the sun" ... laddy da... sure they are simple. But i mean, it's a Fact that I have a computer, and no one can dispute that :: i'm being facetious a the moment ::
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:23   #30
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katbeidar
spyretto, because lizards and cats don't need to be as intelligent as we are to survive in their habitat. If we had the adaptions of a cat, we won't need our brain to protect us. Our brain is our only weapon, that's why we evolved it to this extent. To be honest, I'm rather dissapointed by your ignorance. You don't even know level one biology.

thegurgi, there were no birds before dinosaurs went extinct. Birds evolved from dinosaurs.



True, but not very well structured as an arguement. Every animal's spinal chord is connected to their skull. Duuuuh. What made Australopithecines different is that their spinal chord connected to the skull [/b]underneath[/b] it. Australopithecines' foramen magnum's position has moved to be positioned underneath the skull to support bipedalism. In other animals the forman magnum is positioned behind the skull.


And evolution is not disputable, if a person if well informed on evolution he will think again before rejecting it.
Huh? You know it's more likely that species extinct before evolving into something else, kat.
Do you people really believe that we had to evolve from the australopithecus into the human being to survive in our changing habitat? Religion makes more sense to me than that. I would expect a more plausible explanation, Do you simply suggest that the ape lost its physical ability to survive in its habitat and so it had to develop its intelligence?
Anybody else thinking that the theory of evolution as such is make-believe? Here something more to ponder about:

http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/evofacts.htm

In that respect I prefer religion.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:30   #31
haku haku is offline
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We don't really descend from Apes, but Hominids and Apes descend from the same Primates. Genetics proves without a doubt this relation.

If i remember correctly, Hominids actually have one less chromosome than Primates, one of our chromosome results from the merging of two chromosomes that exist in Primates. It is believed that several million years ago a female Primate was born with this chromosomic abnormality (it is highly unlikely that such a chromosomic accident would occur in more than one individual), this abnormality was reinforced in the descendants of this female. Breeding between "regular" Primates and "mutated" Primates became impossible, only the mating of two "mutated" Primates would give a viable birth, therefore reinforcing again the mutation. Those "mutated" Primates are what we call today the Hominid family, it originated from one single female who was born with a chromosomic abnormality (this theory is sometimes called the "Eve theory" like Kate said).

It is believed today that genetic and chromosomic mutations are the main way species evolve and new species are created.


I also wanted to say that you can actually observe evolution in the growth of Primate fetuses, it's like watching a summary of billions of years of evolution. During its first weeks a Primate fetus is very similar to a fish fetus, then it is very similar to a reptile fetus, then it takes the form of a lower mammal fetus (like a rodent for example), and finally it takes the characteristics of a Primate.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:33   #32
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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i don't understand why it can't be both... if god created man in his image, maybe god is evolving with us... as the world expands creatures have to adapt... because God is adapting to deal with all of us... haha

well, the thing about the Australopithecines. they had to adapt to escape from pray, then we had to adapt to weather as we travelled and then how to deal with the problems that we came across and all that other junk... haha
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:33   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/evofacts.htm

In that respect I prefer religion.
Quote:
1. Evolution Has Never Been Observed and Evolution Is Not A "Fact"
Viruses and hedgehogs. While virus' ecolution/adaptation was observed hedgehogs' is still in process.

Quote:
2. No Genuine, Clear-cut, Undisputed Transitional Form Has Ever Been Found in the Fossil Record.
Not necessary. Did we ever found single compelte skeleton of dinosaurs? AFAIK no. So it's quite possible a lot of stuff is missing and can't be found.

Quote:
3. No "Missing Link" Between Ape and Man Has Ever Been Found.
Didn't humans and apes evolved from same ancestor, not humans from apes themselves? And examples he makes are considered humans, not apes.

Quote:
4. Many Evolutionists Have Admitted that the Fossil Record Contradicts the Theory of Evolution
Interestingly quotes supporting this are not from books written after 1970s. I wonder why....

Quote:
and that Science Has Been Unable to Duplicate Evolution Even in Highly Controlled Circumstances in Sophisticated Laboratories.
Didn't they say that evolution can't be observed? How can you recreate something you can't even observe? Can you even tell if you recreated it (or didn't) if you can't see it?

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Old 05-08-2004, 23:34   #34
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goku,
Quote:
Originally Posted by goku
We don't know 100% that genes create what we look like.
I give up on you, goku. It's a pity that we don't have any biology majors on this forum to back me up. I can't lecture you on the first two years of biology, can I? Cuz clearly, you have no idea what your talking about. You don't know what genes are, or how they work. As much as I would like to sit here and explain, I can't. Go to the library and read a few book. I recommend "Biology" by Campbell and Reece.

spyretto,
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
Huh? You know it's more likely that species extinct before evolving into something else, kat.
Yes, I do. Otherwise this world would be filled with all kinds of bacteria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
Do you people really believe that we had to evolve from the australopithecus into the human being to survive in our changing habitat?
Yes. And if you read a little more on the subject, you would too. I've really underestimated some people knowledge of the world here. READ, people. READ! There's information out there. I'm tired of this never ending ignorance. Take a biology class in Uni, for your own sakes.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:36   #35
thegurgi thegurgi is offline
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yes, Kat, everyone should take a Biology Course... and a Geology course! It's fascinating!! REALLY!

and Goku, i think you're brilliant, you see things from a perspective of complete subjectivity :: or so it appears ::
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:42   #36
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thegurgi
i don't understand why it can't be both... if god created man in his image, maybe god is evolving with us... as the world expands creatures have to adapt...

well, the thing about the Australopithecines. they had to adapt to escape from pray, then we had to adapt to weather as we travelled and then how to deal with the problems that we came across and all that other junk... haha
In that case they would adapt physically to their benefit, like for example, a lizard changing its color or developing stronger limbs or something, not become more vulnerable, then having to develop its intelligence to such an extent as to evolve to the Man we know today.
Animals don't even have the means and the capacity of communicating beyond a basic level, let alone develop the intelligence of a human being.

There's no explanation about these things, because life started has from something that we can't explain because we simply don't know. That's where God comes about, in whatever form it exists.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:44   #37
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well... mutation... that's the thing we haven't mentioned yet, mutation...

it's not something that just happens, it's slow, come on Spyretto! didn't you see X-Men!?!
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:46   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
There's no explanation about these things, because life started has from something that we can't explain because we simply don't know. That's where God comes about, in whatever form it exists.
Tell me which Creationist theory is correct. Christian? Muslim? Hindu? Animist? Native American? Or any other since it seems to me every religion has their own theory about how world and life was created. So which one is it and why?

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Old 05-08-2004, 23:48   #39
spyretto spyretto is offline
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lol, I don't read to read about something that makes no sense. If God makes no sense to you, then biology and the theory of evolution makes no sense to me. Animals are not more intelligent now that they used to be millions of years ago. Because they lack the capacity to develop intelligence, and they always did; while man does not.

There's no real link between the australopithecus and homo sapiens, other than it physically resembled Man. We can't explain Man's cognitive development in that way, and we never will, otherwise we would have by now.

If that makes me an ignorant in your eyes, so be it.
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Old 05-08-2004, 23:50   #40
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oh wow Spryetto, i can't wait to see what Kat has to say about THAT!
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