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Old 04-05-2007, 13:14   #81
tanrah tanrah is offline
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I point out that Poland was forced to join the Warsaw Pact
I didn't know this fact. WP is a military alliance based on agreement of socialistic states against agressive NATO block. WP existed since 1955, NATO-1949.
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Old 04-05-2007, 18:53   #82
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And tanrah wrote a few posts back that he/she didn't fall for propaganda, but I sounded like an official from the Communist Party propaganda department.

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Old 05-05-2007, 03:34   #83
Linda16 Linda16 is offline
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Thank you, simon and haku for explaining Estonia's history. There are so many facts and opinions in which la aurora is wrong, that I can't answer to all of them separately. But I think that the most important fact is that Estonia was not 'occupied' by USSR, Estonia was occupied and in even twice, in 1940 and in 1944. In 1940 the Soviet troops invaded Estonia and a marionette government was organised here by Moscow.
In 1944 when the Soviet troops invaded Estonia the second time, Estonia had actually declared independance. German troops had left Tallinn, we had our own government and our own blue-black-white flag in the tower of Toompea, Pikk Hermann. The Soviet army teared it down and replaced it with red flag. And the terror that had started in 1940 continued during all these years.

No one in Estonia lived happily in "a big Soviet family". Estonian children were not brainwashed by Soviet propaganda, because they had their memories from their parents and grandparents, who had suffered from deportations and imprisonments. Estonians remained Estonians and were proud of it during all these 50 years.


As for the riots in Tallinn last week ( I was away and I could not see it myself), the police did not attack innocent and peaceful demonstrators, as Russian media tries to depict it. Police attacked when the vandalizm and robbing started.

You can see yourself what happened in Tallinn: drunken youngsters are beating windows, burning shops, stealing and robbing:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBeKUgFI13s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQR-IqdmIRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV7FfUzj0Dw

I believe you know that the youth organisation Nashi terrorised Estonian embassy in Moscow and tried to attack our ambassador.

Also attacks to Estonian government servers are executed from Russian government and Kremlin IP-numbers.

So, please don't be naive and think that Russia was not behind it all. It all was a well-organised intelligence operation, directed from Moscow, paid by Moscow, organised by local activists and provocators.

Estonia behaved as a state that is ready to protect itself. I am proud of it.

Last edited by Linda16; 06-05-2007 at 00:07.
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Old 05-05-2007, 08:33   #84
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Linda16,
sorry. I do respect your feelings and can see where some of your points come from but still I don't agree. Both governments are involved in this for their reasons and either can be fully believed.

I do put the word 'occupy' not to make it look like whole Estonian nation was dreaming to become a part of USSR days and nights. That's not true. I do put this word in quotes as we have yet to define this term regarding some countries of Eastern Europe and Estonia in particular. Unfortunately I have some urgent work at the moment that I need to finish but once I'm done, I'll get back here and explain what I mean exactly. So don't hurry to argue with arguments you haven't yet heard.

Claiming whole Estonia was absolutely against joining USSR is as wrong as claiming the opposite. Your country has a complicated history and your population couldn't make up your mind quite a lot back in years. There were people that were fighting on Hitler's side against bolsheviks as well as there were people that did the opposite. There were supporters of joining USSR as there's a whole lot of historical, economical and mentality reasons for that. And you can't claim everyone was unhappy because the picture wasn't as bad as your current historics make it look. Don't forget that quite a lot of people in your current government that started all this anti-soviet hysteria weren't exactly rebells hiding in forests. Ansip for example was building a nice happy career and showing effort no one forced him to show.

I don't buy this 'it was organized by russian government' stuff. It goes against logic.
1. Was it Russian government to come up with the idea of removing the monument? Estonia was living on the bomb for a while. It's an obvious mistake (or was it intentionally?) of your government who had to know that good half of their own population will go crazy over this. Their were absolutely no surprise in reaction of Russia either. This was rather obvious after all the fuss that that law itself was surrounded with. Or were your authorities forced to do that?
2. Were they forced to do it so close to 9th May knowing how high the level of russian patriotism gets at such moments both in Russia and Estonia?
3. Was it russian government to put majority of ethnic Russians in position of aliens, that don't have even basic rights? This monument story was just a last drop that got the party started but reasons for all this lay in previous events. Those people basicly don't see what they can lose in this situation.
4. Was it Russian government to put words in the mouths of your authorities and to pay for anti-russian publications in some big estonian papers? Or don't you yourself hear that there's absolutely no respect for russians as nation in this situation? Don't you hear how they all keep calling russians nothing but hooligans and maradeurs and constantly repeat how it was Russia to organize this mess, how we want to tear your country apart with nationalistic ideas? Where is at least a slight concern for the feelings of half of your population, where's realization that those people do feel hurt? Why is it that it's only feelings of Estonians that are taken into consideration? I'm not even saying about respecting those feelings and acting on them, but I've yet to see even a basic realization of the fact those feelings exist.

And the last thing. Look at this objectively and see who really benefits from this situation? What does Estonia get from this and what could Russia possibly count on?

Estonia got the chance to once again play a victim and get attention from EU and NATO. It was rather obvious who's side those organizations would take. This brings Estonia closer to getting protection from NATO (for example military bases on your territory). It brings Estonia closer to their goal of international tribunal equaling Nazi and Soviet regimes and making Russia paying compensations for the past. This idea is quite popular in several countries nowadays. It helps to justify revanchistic and nationalistic ideas your current government is so fond of. It helps to create an image of 'bad' Russian to justify position of Russians in Estonia in particular and this whole 'Estonians and other people' ideas.

Russia couldn't count on getting any kind of countrol over Estonia. We are talking about independant country, member of EU and NATO. Any plans of this kind would be just absurd. Russia gets even worse relationship with the West after this story which doesn't exactly helps us to join VTO. Russia gets bashed in world media and falls even lower in the eyes of ordinary people like public opinion on us wasn't bad enough.

Both countries suffer economically. It was obvious that that reaction of Russia was coming as it's the only measure we can take in current situation. While it's of course more painful for Estonia, still it doesn't benefit Russia either. We don't earn money on breaking relationship with you, we loose them.

Both governments benefit when it comes to inside political situations. It creates the image of the outside enemy that gets public attention off other actions of the government, the wave of patriotism and nationalistic ideas gives additional points to authorities that ride that wave. But selections in Estonia are much closer than ours.

Now while I totally disagree with the idea of haku and simon being able to give an objective look on the history of USSR and Estonia for the reason of never being here when all that was happening, I can trust them in giving non-baised opinion on situation that requires common logic. If you, guys, are able to shave away the image of 'poor ocuupated Estonia' and 'evil authoritarian and agressive Russia' for a bit and look at this situation from the point of logic, that would be really cool if you could give your honest opinion on who's responsible for events in Tallin.

I really don't like seeing all those fights in Tallin. It hurts my feelings just as much as yours. This shouldn't happen. But 'drunk youngsters and maradeurs' is the position of your authorities. I'm sure there were a lot of young people in there as they are always most emotional and agressive when it comes to such situations. And I never said this was a peaceful protests. But can you honestly say there was time and reson for peaceful demonstrations? Did those people actually have a chance to be heard? Majority of them aren't even citizens of your country. They had nothing to lose. Claiming all of them came there only for the sake of stealing, robbing and breaking anything is just another way to totally deny right of ethnic Russians to feel deeply hurt but this decision of your government. 1/3 of all people arrasted that night were ethnic estonians, younf citizens of your country. It's still a big question who organized what there.

There were cruel methods used by your police to stop 'maradeurs'. There are quite a lot of reports on russian-speaking forums that hardly come from our government as they are much more descriptive than version of our media. quite a lot of people were beaten and arested for no reason. Many of those were teenagers. I won't say that some of it couldn't be fabricated as I'm quite aware of professionalism of our FSB. No one is going to do anything about it but sending official request for investigation. I hope international community won't ignore this one. It just suprises me how demonstrations in Moscow and St.-Peterburg were met with such a fuss and our police was blamed for cruelty. And at the same time western media pretends not to notice worse things when it comes to EU. I wonder what a big scandal it would be if story like this one appeared in media and how fast would it be in every paper of the world was it Russian police to be accused of those things (the article is from Finland. The heroes of it are Germans. But probably it was also paid by Russian government. Finns are so on our side when it comes to that war )

Nashi were using their democratic right to express their opinion. There was police there and people were being arrested for extra-agression. Of course there couldn't be any kind of serious fight when authorities of the city, police guys and demonstrates feel pretty much the same. I suspect that actions of authorities weren't too strict but that doesn't mean everytone could do everything and get away with it. It's also wierd to claim it was organized by authorities as similar protests are happening near in every region of the country. I don't really see anyone around who doesn't feel offended by the action your governmnet took. Would be wierd to expect people bringing flowers to your Ambassy and would be wierd to expect authorities using brutal force against people they share similar feelings with.

In case of attack on the servers, it sounds fishy. Anyone could say anyone but it would be wierd to do it from Kremlin IP's, don't you think? We aren't that bad with computers here. I guess your government should request official investigation on this by the 3rd side. If this investigation proves this really happened, you should insist on punishment for the guilty ones. I will just applause you for that and boo the idiots you did this. But for now this is just another trick used in informational war that is happening now.
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Old 06-05-2007, 02:09   #85
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la aurora, let's define at first where we are coming from. I am an Estonian, but I'm here, on this forum, because I'm a fan of a Russian girl band. Besides this I am fascinated about great Russian literature, I consider Dostoyevski one of the best writers in the whole world, I admire Mikhail Bulgakov’s “Master and Margarita”, I find Viktor Pelevin to be a genius. I can very well make the difference between Russian culture, Russian people and the politics of Russian government. I know, la aurora, that you are a smart girl, because I liked your posts when you wrote under the nick sunny posion . Therefore I’m trying to explain the situation further. And also for all the others who are reading this thread.

Russia has never totally accepted that it lost Baltic States in 1991. Estonians were lucky in the early 1990s because we managed to get back our freedom without any blood, although Russian tanks were also in our streets. Throughout 1990s and early 2000s Russia has bullied its neighbouring states separately – Georgia, Moldova, Latvia. Now it was Estonia’s turn.

Read these articles, they give an objective picture of what happened and the political background of it:
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudise...hp?id=15822956

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudise...hp?id=15822932

The infamous monument stood silently in the middle of our city for 15 years. On the 9th May Soviet war veterans gathered there, but Estonians did not pay much attention to it during all these years. Until last year, it was not just old veterans who gathered there, there were also young men with red flags, aggressive and shouting communist slogans. You know, it is not very pleasant sight to see red flags in the capital of an independent state. The monument was politicised suddenly.
This created discontent among Estonians and groups of Estonians started to gather there with Estonian flags, which caused fights and collisions. Soon after that Nochnoi Dozor was created, a organisation of young Russians. Some of the people related to Nochnoi Dozor were also activists of Interfront movement in early 1990s – a organization of Russians who opposed Estonian independence. Nochnoi Dozor was definitely supported by Russian government. The monument became a place that created disturbance and disorder in the city. It was a symbol, but I’m absolutely sure, if there had not been Bronze Soldier, then some another statue or place would have been politicised. So, it became quite obvious already last spring, that Estonia had to move this monument, for showing that Estonia is an independent state. And for showing that Russia does not have power over Estonia, telling us what to do.

The removal of the monument was only a matter of time. Perhaps the timing was not the best, summer would have been better, when people are on vacations.
But, the demonstrations against it were definitely organised by Russia and with the help of local provocateurs. Certainly, there were a lot of people who were present out of curiosity. However, if you look at the videos of the marauders, you see that even young girls rob the shops.

I repeat, the videos that Russian media shows, depict only demonstrations and police. They don’t show the vandalism. Actually, the city was in total chaos, the crazy mass destroyed everything in its way, shouting Rossija! Rossija! And only after that police (in my opinion even too late), attacked and arrested the vandals.
I was abroad during the riots and the information I got from home was really terrifying. My only question was – where is the police? And when the police managed to restore law and order in the city, it was a real relief.

Estonia managed to resist Russia’s plotting this time. In these two days of April, Estonia did not render to Russia’s dictations. We saved our state.

Last edited by Linda16; 06-05-2007 at 02:45.
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Old 06-05-2007, 15:36   #86
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Originally Posted by Linda16 View Post
That article hits the nail right on the head. Indeed, Yeltsin wanted Russia to break away from the USSR, he wanted it to collapse and disappear just like all other Eastern European countries, and that's why Russia's relations with its neighbors and the West were so good at the time, in the mid 90s there were even talks of Russia eventually joining NATO and the EU… Those days are long gone.
With Putin we are now once again dealing with an imperial Russia with territorial claims on its neighbors and bullying tactics, and that makes all the difference. The Russian official rhetoric is now strikingly similar to what was coming from the USSR when i was a teenager, it's pretty much the same political line with simply 10 to 15 years of detente between then and now (and since we are on a Tatu forum, Tatu's short success in the West will probably remain a symbol of that detente period).
Those who had warned already in the early 90s that we would have a short window to spread and consolidate democracy to Eastern Europe before Russia would revert to an authoritarian regime turned out to be absolutely right.
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Old 06-05-2007, 16:51   #87
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Originally Posted by haku View Post
That article hits the nail right on the head. Indeed, Yeltsin wanted Russia to break away from the USSR, he wanted it to collapse and disappear just like all other Eastern European countries, and that's why Russia's relations with its neighbors and the West were so good at the time, in the mid 90s there were even talks of Russia eventually joining NATO and the EU… Those days are long gone.
With Putin we are now once again dealing with an imperial Russia with territorial claims on its neighbors and bullying tactics, and that makes all the difference. The Russian official rhetoric is now strikingly similar to what was coming from the USSR when i was a teenager, it's pretty much the same political line with simply 10 to 15 years of detente between then and now (and since we are on a Tatu forum, Tatu's short success in the West will probably remain a symbol of that detente period).
Those who had warned already in the early 90s that we would have a short window to spread and consolidate democracy to Eastern Europe before Russia would revert to an authoritarian regime turned out to be absolutely right.
Sorry, haku. But I can't even take it as offense. It sounds like well.. paranoia?
You sound pretty much idealistic when talking about 90ies and collapse of USSR. Are you aware that those heros of the era that released poor East European countries later admitted it was a mistake? And they actually had a lot of reasons for that? Or do you probably realize how much pressure from the West were they getting when making those decisions and what a mistake it was to do exactly what they were pushed into without thinking about hundred of important things they had to think about? What they did wasn't exactly good for most of East European countries.

And it's funny how now we went back to imperial Russia that suddenly becomes an ethalon of evil. Will we go even deeper in history now? What's next?

As far as I know, Yeltsin started Chechen War. Putin started none. Bullying attacks and territory claims... I wonder if we are really as bad as you make it sound, because if we occupied any of our neighbours lately, I'm not informed.

What I see now is not soviet rhetoric, I hear rhetoric of cold war. You are basicly creating an image of a big evil enemy of humanity now. No wonder you thought the same about USSR.
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Old 06-05-2007, 17:36   #88
Argos Argos is offline
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Originally Posted by haku View Post
Indeed, Yeltsin wanted Russia to break away from the USSR, he wanted it to collapse and disappear just like all other Eastern European countries, and that's why Russia's relations with its neighbors and the West were so good at the time, in the mid 90s there were even talks of Russia eventually joining NATO and the EU… Those days are long gone....
Those who had warned already in the early 90s that we would have a short window to spread and consolidate democracy to Eastern Europe before Russia would revert to an authoritarian regime turned out to be absolutely right.
Eltsin and his politics failed. Maybe you are not fully aware of this. He gave away Russia's wealth (of ressources) to the mafia aka "family", and the people were at the edge of starvation. The turbulences about that made the nationalist military fraction strong. Putin is no democrat, he is the fire brigade. Civil war, return to communism or military dictatorship were the other options. I think, what we have got, is not the worst of all cases, but democracy has lost. Seen as a whole, sacrificing democracy for a prospering Russian population is not that bad.

The relationship between the other countries and Russia were so good in Eltsin's time, because every country had their profit from Russia's decline, but not the Russian people. This is now a movement in the other direction. It's time of retaliation of all involved parties but when they have seen that it doesn't bring benefit, then reason will have a chance again.

Patience and foresighted policy is necessary now, not accusations, threats and revenge. When Russian policy can work relaxed, then democracy and good relation with their neighbours will follow sooner or later.
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Old 06-05-2007, 20:39   #89
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Sorry, haku. But I can't even take it as offense. It sounds like well.. paranoia?
You sound pretty much idealistic when talking about 90ies and collapse of USSR. Are you aware that those heros of the era that released poor East European countries later admitted it was a mistake? And they actually had a lot of reasons for that? Or do you probably realize how much pressure from the West were they getting when making those decisions and what a mistake it was to do exactly what they were pushed into without thinking about hundred of important things they had to think about? What they did wasn't exactly good for most of East European countries.
The end of the Soviet empire and the collapse of communism had very different effect in different places. In Russia, Yeltsin practiced a form of 'democracy' that meant lawlessness and a brand of kleptocratic 'capitalism' that turned out to be a handful of oligarchs somehow ending up as owners of Russia's natural resources, which they 'bought' from the state for almost nothing. This went hand in hand with a huge collapse in living standards and of the health of the people. Something rather similar, sometimes more extreme and sometimes less extreme, happened in most of the other European countries that had been part of the Soviet Union.

Meanwhile, most of the former satellite states and the Baltic states had a rather different experience. There was economic contraction and a lot of pain, but not on anything like the same scale. There was corruption, but the states did not become kleptocracies. Fairly functional democracies were extablished with normal party systems and alternation of power between parties. After several years, the economies started to recover. They joined NATO and EU.

Russia was headed down a slope to social implosion when Putin became president. But, luckily, the price of oil and gas, Russia's main exports, stopped falling and rose to be unusually high. Putin then took back Yukos and used that example to frighten the other oligarchs into paying taxes.

The other European countries in the USSR didn't have many natural resources. They remained headed in a very frightening direction. In Georgia and Ukraine there were popular revolutions inspired by the idea of getting off that track and onto the track the central Europeans had followed. But Putin's Russia doesn't want more countries to go down the Western route.

The West was wrong to back Yeltsin so enthusiastically. It was apparent early on that he was pursuing very flawed policies, but there was a mistaken assumption that things would work out in the end. Actually, they ended up discrediting the idea of democracy in Russia.

Quote:
And it's funny how now we went back to imperial Russia that suddenly becomes an ethalon of evil. Will we go even deeper in history now? What's next?
It's not thinking Russians are evil, it's pointing out that Russia is behaving in the imperialist way it did in the past.

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As far as I know, Yeltsin started Chechen War. Putin started none. Bullying attacks and territory claims... I wonder if we are really as bad as you make it sound, because if we occupied any of our neighbours lately, I'm not informed.
Yeltsin started a war in Chechnya, as you say. It ended in Chechen independence. When Putin was prime minister he started the second Chechen war and has continued it through his period in office. Putin rode the popularity of starting the second war to the presidency.

The pretext for starting the second war was the apartment bombings. It's interesting that soon after the last of those bombings Russian police caught FSB officers planting such a bomb in another apartment building. The FSB said it was just a training exercise, but it does seem rather suspicious. It's also curious that many people in Russia who have tried to investigate those bombings have been assassinated.

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What I see now is not soviet rhetoric, I hear rhetoric of cold war. You are basicly creating an image of a big evil enemy of humanity now. No wonder you thought the same about USSR.
You were two when Mikhail Gorbachev became leader of the Soviet Union. He was completely different from all previous Soviet leaders and over the next few years life in the USSR and international relations were transformed. When you were six the Berlin Wall came down and the Cold War was definitively over. You can have no personal memories of what the Cold War was like. We are old enough to remember those times. The attempt to smear Estonia and its supporters as fascists is straight out of the playbook of Soviet propaganda in the Cold War against the West.

This new cold war is different from the old one. Russia's big new weapon isn't its armed forces, it's gas. Turning off the gas has already been used against Georgia and Ukraine to force them to pay Western rates as they were no longer Russian allies. Most countries formerly in the Soviet bloc are completely dependent on Russian gas and as North Sea gas runs out western European countries are beginning to rely on it too.The spectre stalking Europe right now is fear that Russia will turn off the gas supply to exert political control. It's already done it to Georgia and Ukraine. Who's next?
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Old 06-05-2007, 21:28   #90
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Mostly agreed, but there are a few things I see a bit different.
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The other European countries in the USSR didn't have many natural resources. They remained headed in a very frightening direction. In Georgia and Ukraine there were popular revolutions inspired by the idea of getting off that track and onto the track the central Europeans had followed. But Putin's Russia doesn't want more countries to go down the Western route.
I think Georgia is a special case. In Soviet times very different nationalities were joint to the Grusinian SSR against the will of most of the northern and western 'Grusinian' people. When Georgia became independent, those ethnical groups IMMEDIATELY wanted to split off, namely Adjaria, Abchasia and South Ossetia, which always wanted a reunion with northern Ossets. Tbilisi reacted with all their brutality to this efforts until the Russian minorities in those regions called for the Red Army, who since then 'protected' them, certainly not out of humanity, but because they wanted to avoid the conflict spread to the northern (Russian) Caucasus. This protection was negotiated internationally, so no use to blame Russia for this.

Georgia got more and more important for the USA and EU, because of the oil-pipeline projects from the Caspic to the Black Sea, but the conflicts could not be solved. Russia stopped the support for Adjaria, their most distant trouble spot, to give Georgia the chance to show, that they are able to solve the ethnic problems peacefully and in consent with the population. They failed. So Russia is no more willing to cooperate with Georgia. The conflict between Russia and Georgia escalated. My view to this: The USA and EU were far too long only economically interested in Georgia, not politically. Their efforts now, to join Georgia to NATO and EU, is just another affront to Russia, solving the ethnic problem in 'ingesting' Georgia into their realm.

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Originally Posted by simon View Post
This new cold war is different from the old one. Russia's big new weapon isn't its armed forces, it's gas. Turning off the gas has already been used against Georgia and Ukraine to force them to pay Western rates as they were no longer Russian allies. Most countries formerly in the Soviet bloc are completely dependent on Russian gas and as North Sea gas runs out western European countries are beginning to rely on it too.The spectre stalking Europe right now is fear that Russia will turn off the gas supply to exert political control. It's already done it to Georgia and Ukraine. Who's next?
Well, this should be seen in a different way, too. The World Trade Union has moaned since years, that Russia gives it's 'satellites' oil and gas for a fraction (about 10 %) of the world market price and requested that Russia should increase the prices in several steps, which has been promised by Russia. They just began with those countries, who were not especially 'cooperative' with Russia. theft and then closing off the pipelines were the logical consequences. I wouldn't blame Russia for this. Every country who has the power to do so, makes strategical politics with it's ressources. The USA began a war, justified with lies, for this.
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Old 06-05-2007, 23:33   #91
Linda16 Linda16 is offline
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Some more information about the timing of the Bronze Soldier's removal. In my last post I presented an opinion that summer would have been a better period for this action. However, today a interview with one Estonian intelligence analytic was broadcasted on TV. Estonian intelligence had made clear that the biggest riot was planned to be held on the 9th of May this year. For this revolt also a lot of weapons - knives, chains, brass-nuckles, masks - were procured. Fortunately, as government acted faster, then during the two days of April the organisers had no time to provide all rioters with weapons, so there were less casualities, than it would have been during the 9th of May. So, I will take back my words and say that the timing was right.

And of course, the Bronze Soldier is not destroyed, but only relocated. It stands now in the military cemetary: Here

Last edited by Linda16; 06-05-2007 at 23:48.
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Old 06-05-2007, 23:44   #92
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Mostly agreed, but there are a few things I see a bit different.

I think Georgia is a special case. In Soviet times very different nationalities were joint to the Grusinian SSR against the will of most of the northern and western 'Grusinian' people. When Georgia became independent, those ethnical groups IMMEDIATELY wanted to split off, namely Adjaria, Abchasia and South Ossetia, which always wanted a reunion with northern Ossets. Tbilisi reacted with all their brutality to this efforts until the Russian minorities in those regions called for the Red Army, who since then 'protected' them, certainly not out of humanity, but because they wanted to avoid the conflict spread to the northern (Russian) Caucasus. This protection was negotiated internationally, so no use to blame Russia for this.
That's true about South Ossetia, but in Abkhazia it's the Abkhazians who committed the biggest human rights violations, with Russian support. About 250,000 ethnic Georgians (the majority of the population) were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia.

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Georgia got more and more important for the USA and EU, because of the oil-pipeline projects from the Caspic to the Black Sea, but the conflicts could not be solved.
It could instead be said that Georgia became more important to Russia because it wants to prevent any such pipeline being built as it would reduce its leverage in the region.

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Russia stopped the support for Adjaria, their most distant trouble spot, to give Georgia the chance to show, that they are able to solve the ethnic problems peacefully and in consent with the population. They failed. So Russia is no more willing to cooperate with Georgia.
The Adjaran people themselves overthrew Aslan Abashidze, their Russian-backed dictator, in the aftermath of the Rose Revolution. The Georgian government has subsequently reduced Adjara's autonomy too far, but that doesn't justify Russia's embargo of Georgia, which is causing a great deal of hardship.

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The conflict between Russia and Georgia escalated. My view to this: The USA and EU were far too long only economically interested in Georgia, not politically. Their efforts now, to join Georgia to NATO and EU, is just another affront to Russia, solving the ethnic problem in 'ingesting' Georgia into their realm.
Why do you think Russia has the right to meddle in Georgia's affairs, but that the US and the EU don't have the right to support the elected Georgian government? The EU is a much less interested party and has a much better record of handling ethnic disputes than Russia does. Look at Chechnya.

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Well, this should be seen in a different way, too. The World Trade Union has moaned since years, that Russia gives it's 'satellites' oil and gas for a fraction (about 10 %) of the world market price and requested that Russia should increase the prices in several steps, which has been promised by Russia. They just began with those countries, who were not especially 'cooperative' with Russia. theft and then closing off the pipelines were the logical consequences. I wouldn't blame Russia for this. Every country who has the power to do so, makes strategical politics with it's ressources. The USA began a war, justified with lies, for this.
I wasn't claiming that Russia didn't have the right to increase its prices to market levels, although the timing of the price increases for Georgia and Ukraine were politically motivated. I was pointing out that countries across Europe are concerned that Russia will turn off the gas to them for purely political reasons. That's something Russia has already done with oil when it cut the oil pipeline to Lithuania.
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Old 07-05-2007, 19:24   #93
Argos Argos is offline
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...but in Abkhazia it's the Abkhazians who committed the biggest human rights violations, with Russian support. About 250,000 ethnic Georgians (the majority of the population) were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia.
That's true. Before the cleansing there were about 48 % Georgians and only 17 % Abkhazians in the country, but this is only a tiny bit of the whole, rather complicated story of Abkhazia. The conflict between Georgia and Abkhazia goes back to the second half of the 19th century, when Russia expanded to the Caucasus and heavily suppressed the mostly muslim Abkhazian population. Many of them fled into the Osman Empire and Georgians settled there. In a few decades the Georgians were twice as many as the Abkhazian people.

1931 Abkhazia became part of Georgia. The use of the abkhazian language was forbidden, repressions, Georgians were again invited to settle in Abkhazia ... After Stalin's death the ethnic minority got many lost rights back, which caused much annoyance among the Georgian mayority. 1991 Georgia became independant and adopted a new constitution without negotiations with the autonomous regions. Then Abkhazia declared itself independent.

The next months saw much unrest, ethnical, religious and political ones. When Russian transports were robbed a few times, they demanded from the Georgian government to solve the problem and guarantee safety for Russian transports. The Georgian army came there, freed all prisoners (what for?), who in turn began to loot, preferentially ethnic Abkhazians. From that moment the situation escalated and the Russians began to support the rebels. The victory was not so much caused by Russia's intervention, their troops were quite small at that time, but because of the chaos in the Georgian troops. When they fled, the ethnic Georgians joined them, far before the Abkhazians could reach them. Most of the war-crimes happened to the remaining Georgians after most of them left the country, it could have been much worse, if they remained there. Since 2002 the Abkhazian government tried to convince Moskva to associate with them, to have a customs- and currency-union and to station Russian troops in Abkhazia, Russia only granted the last request. But since 2006 Russia seems to change it's politics.
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It could instead be said that Georgia became more important to Russia because it wants to prevent any such pipeline being built as it would reduce its leverage in the region.
I don't think so. Since the times of tsaristic Russia, Russia was interested to deny Georgia the full control over the Black Sea ports. Quite independent autonomous regions in that area could guarantee that.
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Originally Posted by simon View Post
The Adjaran people themselves overthrew Aslan Abashidze, their Russian-backed dictator, in the aftermath of the Rose Revolution. The Georgian government has subsequently reduced Adjara's autonomy too far, but that doesn't justify Russia's embargo of Georgia, which is causing a great deal of hardship.
This needs some completion, too. The Georgian parliament has installed Abazhidze, to stop communist influence in this region. In Adjaria live more than 80 % Georgians, so no ethnic problem, but a religious one. Most of them are muslims and Georgia has proved numerous times that they can't deal with religious minorities. Additionally most of the muslims were communists, there fore this intervention. Eltsin then supported Abazhidze due to this fact and Putin did not change the politics either.

In 2003 massive opposition raised against his corrupt regime of nepotism and despotism. Abakhidze could only survive with the help of Russian troops, but then Putin and Saakashvili met and made a deal (guaranteed full autonomy of Adjaria and Russian troops will no more support Abakhidze). Iwanow told him to resign and the rest was only formality. The full autonomy did not hold up longer than two months. This was the end of Russia's cooperation.
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Originally Posted by simon View Post
Why do you think Russia has the right to meddle in Georgia's affairs, but that the US and the EU don't have the right to support the elected Georgian government? The EU is a much less interested party and has a much better record of handling ethnic disputes than Russia does. Look at Chechnya.
You misunderstood. EU and the USA should have had an active political role much earlier to prevent the too dominant influence in Georgian policy. An intervention before the various escalations, which were predictable, would have been much better. To offer Georgia now NATO and EU membership without trying to solve Georgia's minority problems and to assign Russia the role of the loser is a very myopic act, which in the long-term will be of no benefit for all the involved parties.
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Originally Posted by simon View Post
I was pointing out that countries across Europe are concerned that Russia will turn off the gas to them for purely political reasons. That's something Russia has already done with oil when it cut the oil pipeline to Lithuania.
That's true and it will happen again. In foreign policy Russia has been cornered more and more. The inherited problems of Soviet era, the up-coming nationalism of the former satellites with the conflicts with their Russian minorities, the expansion of EU and NATO, the many strategically important neighbours, this all adds to Russia's uneasiness and they react more and more thin-skinned.

Therefore it's time to loosen the tension, to plan a long-term partnership and to play the cards face up. Putin may handle the current situation in some way, but the next president eventually may not. A cold war with Russia costs Europe even more than Russia.
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Old 08-05-2007, 06:25   #94
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Why do you think Russia has the right to meddle in Georgia's affairs, but that the US and the EU don't have the right to support the elected Georgian government?

Becouse Georgia in fact is the state depending on Russia. The budget of Georgia is being formed by investments from Georgia sitezens working in Russia. So we have all possibilities to do with Georgia "goverment" all what we want. EU is not an authority for Russia - and EU bandit polycy to destabilse region is really danger for Russia.

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About 250,000 ethnic Georgians (the majority of the population) were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia.
Stupid Georgian propaganda especially for US footmen from UK.
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:02   #95
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Becouse Georgia in fact is the state depending on Russia. The budget of Georgia is being formed by investments from Georgia sitezens working in Russia. So we have all possibilities to do with Georgia "goverment" all what we want.
What a statement of Russian imperialism.

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Stupid Georgian propaganda especially for US footmen from UK.
Actually, the estimate of 250,000 refugees from Abkhazia comes from the United Nations.
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Old 10-05-2007, 01:05   #96
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Some more information about Estonia. The 9th of May, the celebration of Victory Day - was peaceful in Estonia. Russian people went to the military cemetary, to the new location of the Bronze Soldier, and placed flowers at the foot of the monument. A lot of policemen were in the city, but no collisions or bigger violations of the law did happen. We all really hope that the anxious times are over and we can continue our normal life.

An interesting article about Russia's strategy was published in Eurasia Daily Monitor.
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Old 11-05-2007, 23:33   #97
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I wasn't quite sure where to put this but here goes ... the article mentions the Moscow Gay Pride March and Alexey Mitrofanov. Have a look at the site it comes from too, there is some interesting stuff about the March.


Russian State Duma Deputy: “Gay Parade in Moscow Should Be Authorized”

Alexey Mitrofanov warns Russian deputies they might be denied access to European countries ...



Russian State Duma deputy representing Liberal Democratic party and deputy head of the Duma Committee on constitutional legislation Alexey Mitrofanov said on Friday that Moscow authorities should allow the public actions of sexual minorities planned for the end of May because their banning will lead to very negative consequences for Russia as a country.

Alexey Mitrofanov said during morning debates in the Duma that “As became known to me, a notification for the conduct of the manifestation in support for tolerance towards sexual minorities will be filed shortly”.

He stressed that at the level of emotions one can have various attitudes towards “these groups of our electors” but my personal attitude to them is “polite and balanced”.

Alexey Mitrofanov suggested that “there are no reasons to ban such manifestations – we must acknowledge that”.

Liberal democrat deputy is convinced that in case Moscow authorities ban such manifestation it will provoke very negative reaction in the West. He said: “And we will lose all Strasbourg cases on this issue and then we will be surprised that some persons or deputies will not get entry visas to the European countries”.

Organizer of Moscow Gay Pride Nikolai Alekseev welcomed the statement of deputy Mitrofanov calling it “a very brave political step”. He stressed that “unfortunately we very rarely hear such balanced and politically responsible statements concerning homosexual people from Russian politicians. Today’s statement of Alexey Mitrofanov is a statement of the politician who is looking into the future and who sees Russia as a democratic and free state where the rights of all citizens irrespective of personal characteristics are respected”.

Nikolai Alekseev added that “Alexey Mitrofanov knows very well that LGBT community is a big electoral resource which has not be used by any political power in our country. I want to believe that the time has come when the situation will start to change and the views of gays and lesbians who are equal citizens of Russia will finally be heard in the political process”.

Organizer of Moscow Pride invited Alexey Mitrofanov to take part in the forthcoming conference as part of Gay Pride in any suitable position, as a participant or as an observer.

Press conference dedicated to the second Moscow Pride coinciding with the official application to Moscow Mayor will take place in Russia’s capital on 15 May.


Source - http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=9152
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Old 12-05-2007, 10:03   #98
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Originally Posted by nikki View Post
I wasn't quite sure where to put this but here goes ... the article mentions the Moscow Gay Pride March and Alexey Mitrofanov. Have a look at the site it comes from too, there is some interesting stuff about the March.


Russian State Duma Deputy: “Gay Parade in Moscow Should Be Authorized”

Alexey Mitrofanov warns Russian deputies they might be denied access to European countries ...



Russian State Duma deputy representing Liberal Democratic party and deputy head of the Duma Committee on constitutional legislation Alexey Mitrofanov said on Friday that Moscow authorities should allow the public actions of sexual minorities planned for the end of May because their banning will lead to very negative consequences for Russia as a country.

Alexey Mitrofanov said during morning debates in the Duma that “As became known to me, a notification for the conduct of the manifestation in support for tolerance towards sexual minorities will be filed shortly”.

He stressed that at the level of emotions one can have various attitudes towards “these groups of our electors” but my personal attitude to them is “polite and balanced”.

Alexey Mitrofanov suggested that “there are no reasons to ban such manifestations – we must acknowledge that”.

Liberal democrat deputy is convinced that in case Moscow authorities ban such manifestation it will provoke very negative reaction in the West. He said: “And we will lose all Strasbourg cases on this issue and then we will be surprised that some persons or deputies will not get entry visas to the European countries”.

Organizer of Moscow Gay Pride Nikolai Alekseev welcomed the statement of deputy Mitrofanov calling it “a very brave political step”. He stressed that “unfortunately we very rarely hear such balanced and politically responsible statements concerning homosexual people from Russian politicians. Today’s statement of Alexey Mitrofanov is a statement of the politician who is looking into the future and who sees Russia as a democratic and free state where the rights of all citizens irrespective of personal characteristics are respected”.

Nikolai Alekseev added that “Alexey Mitrofanov knows very well that LGBT community is a big electoral resource which has not be used by any political power in our country. I want to believe that the time has come when the situation will start to change and the views of gays and lesbians who are equal citizens of Russia will finally be heard in the political process”.

Organizer of Moscow Pride invited Alexey Mitrofanov to take part in the forthcoming conference as part of Gay Pride in any suitable position, as a participant or as an observer.

Press conference dedicated to the second Moscow Pride coinciding with the official application to Moscow Mayor will take place in Russia’s capital on 15 May.


Source - http://www.gayrussia.ru/en/news/detail.php?ID=9152
Mitrofanov is so non-typical for the LDPR. Kudos to him.
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Old 12-05-2007, 15:21   #99
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Mitrofanov is an opportunistic bastard, a few years ago he proposed to the duma a law that would send lesbians to jail because they were a threat to Russia's birth rate, and now he's gay friendly? This smells of electoral positioning for the LDPR, it remains to be seen if Russian homosexuals also think that annexing Finland and Alaska would be a good idea.

Thanks for the article nikki
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Old 12-05-2007, 15:35   #100
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Electoral positioning by being gay-friendly? How is a reactionary, ultra-nationalist party going to win votes by being gay-friendly? Especially in Russia. If anything, this is going to cost them votes.
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