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Germans and their attitudes towards Nazi symbolism


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Old 15-06-2006, 19:51   #1
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Germans and their attitudes towards Nazi symbolism

"I would have preferred it if he'd followed his original ambition and become an architect." — Paula Hitler, Hitler's younger sister, during an interview with a U.S. intelligence operative in late 1945.

You know… I really don’t understand Germans. Their attitude these days is like none of the two World Wars ever happened. It is illegal in post-WW2 Germany to mention or paraphrase anything remotely relative to Nazi symbolism. I don’t mean just obvious stuff like wearing an idiosyncratic swastika T-shirt while parading around downtown Frankfurt chanting “Sieg Heil!” Even ambiguous stuff like discussing 3rd Reich ideologies in a local pub might as well land you in prison. Why this mindless ultra-sensitivity towards the subject in general? It’s not something that could EVER be elegantly swept under a rug for all eternity. Yes, it happened. Yes, it was bloody and inhumane. Yes it showed the worst conceivable part of the human psyche imaginable.

Nazis have been regarded in most of the world as synonymous with evil. Condemned by all and none so with more zeal then Germans themselves. Conveniently forgetting or rather dismissing the fact most adult Germans living today had Nazi-flag-waving fathers and grandfathers, seeing Adolf Hitler as a deity of Germanic pride who’ll save them from the pitfalls of Semitic conspiracy. It doesn’t take much to turn a nation into a bunch of blood thirsty mass-murderers and convince them Jews are in fact natural enemies of the so called “Aryan race”. If anything this was the ultimate lesson to be drawn from those grotesque 5 years.

All ex Yugoslav nations have had their fair share of vices and regrets over the turbolent history of last 60 years. Speaking for my nation alone I can say that we’re well aware and we fully accept consequences of the communist-led partisans killing thousands of innocent people after WW2, under the pretense that they were all German collaborates, which they weren’t. Whole families of German and Slovene noblemen disappeared, so their possessions could in turn get nationalized by the Red Army. Only after we gained independence in 1991 has it been officially recognized that a great majority of these unfortunate people were taken to hidden bunkers and burned alive. Old people are still telling hair-raising stories of hearing their screams as flames overwhelmed them. Yes… my nation did that – our ancestors. It was partly down to post-war hysteria and mostly a part of a master plan of the Communist Party lead by Tito and backed by Stalin. Yet when it all comes down to it – it was the people who did the killing. Everyday people like you and me. Despite this we're not ashamed of these things. It happened and we won’t deny it. It’s not illegal to mention the communist party, the partisans, nor abhorrent mass murders that happened. It’s a lesson and we take it as such. Not denying it is actually the part that shapes it into redemption.

It is my opinion that modern Germany has to embrace those 5 years and take them for what they are. No use in hiding from shame, pretending nothing ever happened because it sure as hell did. Call it the burden of a nation but also the responsibility of a nation. Making sure it will never, ever happen again, yet not treating it as the unmentionable. The forbidden, mysterious aspect of it only adds fuel to its already iconic status among extreme nationalists, turning it into a new-age manifestation of Satanism. And that’s what modern ultra-liberal Bundesrepublik Deutschland doesn’t seem to comprehend. They think evil can be stifled into submission with passive oppression. It can’t. Such is the nature of humanity. The prime evil of animalistic instincts is always here, bubbling under the surface of this illusion we call civilization, just waiting for the right opportunity to burst out. And it will. Faster than you can say: "Ja, mein Führer!”
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Last edited by freddie; 15-06-2006 at 23:50.
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Old 15-06-2006, 20:35   #2
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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While agree with you for the most part Freddie. I don't think Modern Germany completely ignores their accountability. In the just the last few yers they opened one of the largest Holocaust remembrance museums in the World in Berlin and some of the old concentration camps are museums. It is also illegal to deny that the Holocaust ever happened. So while the Germans may outlaw discussion of Nazi ideology, ect., they are not necessarily keeping silent about their mistakes and not trying to redeem themselves.
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Old 15-06-2006, 21:04   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
While agree with you for the most part Freddie. I don't think Modern Germany completely ignores their accountability. In the just the last few yers they opened one of the largest Holocaust remembrance museums in the World in Berlin and some of the old concentration camps are museums. It is also illegal to deny that the Holocaust ever happened. So while the Germans may outlaw discussion of Nazi ideology, ect., they are not necessarily keeping silent about their mistakes and not trying to redeem themselves.
I've heard about those but I'm talking more about the general attitude of Germans towards the issue rather than idividual attempts (which I admit do exist). But in general it's still like I described. Everytime I've been there people literaly cringe and bow in shame when the topic comes up... everything that revolves around the 3rd Reich, Nazism or even far-right extremism is met with severe rigidity... Make a joke about it and you'll be considered a certified psycho. I've heard German comendiants are "advised" not to make jokes about WW2 or the 3rd Reich in public performances not only in Germany but also abroad.
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Old 15-06-2006, 21:44   #4
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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hmm, I guess I don't know that many Germans. I had a few exchange students in a couple classes in high school and I didn't notice anything like what you're describing. Then again I don't live in Europe and I've never been to Germany, so I'll take your word for it.

But what you're describing sounds a like Americans adversion to the took of Japanese decendants' internment during World War II. I took an advanced placement course in US history and I don't recall ever hearing about it. The only time it was ever mentioned was in my senior English class because we read "Snow Falling on Cedars" which discusses the incident in detail. From what I understand, the silence about it stems from deep seeded shame about the detainment of innocent people. While as ar as I know no one was murdered, I can certainly understand why the German people might not want to be remind of five years of total inhumanity.
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Old 15-06-2006, 22:00   #5
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I understand why they wouldn't want to be reminded of it on every step, since it's not exactly their finest hour, but I still think their attitude when it does come to their attention is inappropriate.

Offtop:
I've read about that Japanese decendants' internment situation. I think there was even a story about it on CNN once. Grizly parallels could be drawn with recent history and Guantanamo Bay detainees as well as those supposed CIA prison camps in Eastern Europe. Although in all honesty I don't believe all of those peisoners are innoncent... but I wouldn't be surprised if say... 10% of them were.
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Old 16-06-2006, 13:43   #6
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I really can't follow you there, freddie. Unlike Japan, Germany admitted the war crimes and took responsibility for it.
It's totally wrong that discussing the topic will land you into prison. While it is true, that Nazi symbolism is prohibited in Germany, it's absolutely not the case that Germans try to sweep the era under the carpet or erase it from their minds. The opposite is actually the case. You are bombarded with it. There's no epoch that's tought more excessive in history class than these 12 years. And not just in one year. The topic comes again year after year after year. There's also no week in television where there isn't at least one documentary about anything Nazi/WWII related. And I'm not talking about the documentary channel.
No topic is raised so often in the media. Any topic, not even remotely related to nazi germany, can kick-off the discussion.
So the Israel army massacred palestinians again? Be sure to read one article criticising Israel and 50 articles discussing whether the historic responsibility allows Germans to critcise Israel.
Tobbacco ads banned in all EU countries! All EU countries? No! One tiny germanic country in the heart of europe still allows them and conducts a lawsuit against the EU. Too bad that the nazis thought smoking was bad for the "Volkskörper" (the people's body) and banned tobacco ads. Be sure to see huge cigarette placards all over present day germany.
Sometimes you can only shake your head how some people manage to connect nazism with everything.
You're right when you observe that some people bow in shame when you bring the topic up, but your conclusion is wrong. It's not because people try to cover the era up and prefer that you remain silent about it. It's because the media imposes a collective guiltiness in the minds of all germans. They cringe because they feel guilty and are ashamed.
There's a growing number of people in my generation (even my grandfather was too young to fight in the war) which are fed up with the excessive coverage of the nazi era in the german society (it really is excessive, even compared to the ww2-obsessed uk) and resist the idea that they are held responsible for something that was way before their time. But these people are not the ones to cringe, when the topic comes up. You rather have a vivid discussion with them.

Quote:
I understand why they wouldn't want to be reminded of it on every step, since it's not exactly their finest hour, but I still think their attitude when it does come to their attention is inappropriate.
No sane german denies the holocaust. It did happen. And it is important to make sure that it's not forgotten so it will never happen again. But for all that, the problem is, people ARE reminded of it on every single step. And this holds the danger, that people turn away from it, because they are annoyed that they're confronted day after day with such a complex and cruel topic. Even though you're convinced the holocaust did happen, you wouldn't hang up posters of piles of burnt bodies in your room, would you? But that's how it often feels in germany.


If you started this thread because of my response in the "football thread": It was just the last word, "classy", that bugged me. It sounded like you could go to no football match in germany without encountering right-wing hooligans chanting "Sieg Heil" with the right arm lifted.

Last edited by socialite; 16-06-2006 at 15:26.
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Old 16-06-2006, 15:10   #7
haku haku is offline
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I have to admit that i don't really get your point either freddie. Germany is eluding WWII? Germany is *obsessed* with WWII actually in my opinion, i have never seen a country feeling so guilty about a past event and beating itself over it on a daily basis, it becomes sometimes a neurotic obsession and reaches insane levels.

Look at Japan, Japan has done its fair share of war crimes during WWII and modern Japan is really not too bothered about it. WWII Japanese soldiers (including kamikazes) are considered heroes, and neither Japan as a nation or Japanese soldiers as individuals (not to mention the late emperor who was the ruler during WWII) are held responsible for anything. Actually Japan often sees itself as ultimately a victim of the war since the US had the incredibly stupid idea to launch two nuclear bombs on civilians just to see what they would do to people.

Look at Russia, the Soviet regime has caused more deaths than the Nazi regime, and yet you don't see modern Russia too bothered about it. Modern Russia is not bothered either by the fact that they oppressed several Central European countries for half a century, sending the Red Army and massacring civilians each time those people made an attempt to free themselves.

And if we stick at WWII war crimes, there were also war crimes committed on the Allied side that are today still totally denied. The bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the bombings of Dresde and Hamburg are war crimes, they had no military goal and their sole prupose was to kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians just for the "fun" of it. Tens of thousands of unarmed civilians, men, women, children, died in atrocious conditions during each of those bombings, and nobody on the Allied side was ever held reponsible, the countries that made those bombings don't even recognize that there was anything wrong with such a massive massacre of civilians, a clear case of denial.
(Bombing Dresde was also a crime against the World Heritage since Dresde was an historical monument as a whole, destroying it was an outrageous act, even the Nazis never considered massively bombing Paris as a viable option because of the historical value of the city and the irreplaceable loss it would cause, the same thinking on the Allied side should have applied to Dresde.)

Modern Germany on the other hand totally acknowledges the war crimes commited during WWII and everything is done to make modern Germans feel guilty about it, it's even going too far in my opinion.
I don't believe in collective responsibility and inherited responsibilty.
The son of a serial killer should not have to apologize to the families of the victims of his father and be reminded everyday of his crimes. And i don't think that forcing a son to watch everyday pictures of the butchered victims of his father will ensure that he will grow up into a kind and caring human being that will never repeat what his father has done.
And here we're not even talking about sons, but grand-sons, and grand-grand-sons, and grand-grand-grand sons who have to apologize for, feel guilty about, and remember what their long gone anscestor has done.
It has become pointless and ridiculous because like i said, i don't believe in inherited responsibilty.
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Old 16-06-2006, 15:56   #8
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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well said Haku. Like I said earlier I've never been tp Europe, so I don't really have a clue what it's like... but Your comments on inherited responsibility are so true. I do not in any way blame modern Germany for the crimes committed against my family. That is absolutely ridiculous, I also think it ridiculous that German media goes so far to make people feel gulity about something that their forefathers did. It would be like blaming me for the bombing of Hamburg and Dresden because my grandfather made the bombs.

There is a fine line between teaching and prevention and unnecessary gulit tripping, finger pointing.

Offtop:
Although, I don't agree that the US isn't held responsible for the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombings. In schools here (at least in the Northeast), the bombings are covered extensively, our books and teachers always try to convey the message that it was by far (until recently IMO) the worst moment in our history as a nation. In a couple classes we were made to watch documentaries about the aftermath of the bombings in graphic detail. I will never forget those images, which were shown to us in hopes that we would never consider or consent to such action being taken again.
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Old 16-06-2006, 16:14   #9
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I don't see your point either freddie. What are they supposed to do, revel in the darkest era of their history? Pretend they are "ok" with it? discuss it in what level, these things happened 60-70 years ago, the new-generations of Germans are as relevant as we are with them ( only that they carry the guilt of their forefathers. )
I've known a few Germans, and yes, the subject of the Nazi and the Holocaust is an ambarassing topic for them but I havn't sensed complete aversion. You should try to approach the topic in a carefree way, if possible. Yes, they'd rather avoid discussing it if they could and I would do the same if I were a younger generation German.
I don't think we can compare the Soviets and the Japanese regimes to the Nazis. Despite the former's evidented crimes against their own people, the crimes of the Nazi are way beyond them in terms of intensity, calculation and inhumanity.

And yes, of course the bombing of Germany by the Allied Forces was in retribution of the Nazi crimes and a lesser war crime in itself, so I agree with haku there.

What about the film "Der Untertang"? It was done by Germans and they were accussed of glorifying Hitler. So anything the Germans may say or do about it could also be taken in the same sympathising way.

Last edited by spyretto; 16-06-2006 at 16:29.
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Old 16-06-2006, 16:52   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socialite
I really can't follow you there, freddie. Unlike Japan, Germany admitted the war crimes and took responsibility for it.
It's totally wrong that discussing the topic will land you into prison. While it is true, that Nazi symbolism is prohibited in Germany, it's absolutely not the case that Germans try to sweep the era under the carpet or erase it from their minds. The opposite is actually the case. You are bombarded with it. There's no epoch that's tought more excessive in history class than these 12 years. And not just in one year. The topic comes again year after year after year. There's also no week in television where there isn't at least one documentary about anything Nazi/WWII related. And I'm not talking about the documentary channel.
No topic is raised so often in the media. Any topic, not even remotely related to nazi germany, can kick-off the discussion.
So the Israel army massacred palestinians again? Be sure to read one article criticising Israel and 50 articles discussing whether the historic responsibility allows Germans to critcise Israel.
Tobbacco ads banned in all EU countries! All EU countries? No! One tiny germanic country in the heart of europe still allows them and conducts a lawsuit against the EU. Too bad that the nazis thought smoking was bad for the "Volkskörper" (the people's body) and banned tobacco ads. Be sure to see huge cigarette placards all over present day germany.
Sometimes you can only shake your head how some people manage to connect nazism with everything.
You're right when you observe that some people bow in shame when you bring the topic up, but your conclusion is wrong. It's not because people try to cover the era up and prefer that you remain silent about it. It's because the media imposes a collective guiltiness in the minds of all germans. They cringe because they feel guilty and are ashamed.
There's a growing number of people in my generation (even my grandfather was too young to fight in the war) which are fed up with the excessive coverage of the nazi era in the german society (it really is excessive, even compared to the ww2-obsessed uk) and resist the idea that they are held responsible for something that was way before their time. But these people are not the ones to cringe, when the topic comes up. You rather have a vivid discussion with them.
I have to say that I've yet to meet a german who'd want to have a vivid discussion about the topic with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socialite
No sane german denies the holocaust.
Okay not deny... it's hard to deny something that was so blatant and obvious (though there are some who'll claim the holocaust was greatly exaggerated but that's a whole different story altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by socialite
If you started this thread because of my response in the "football thread": It was just the last word, "classy", that bugged me. It sounded like you could go to no football match in germany without encountering right-wing hooligans chanting "Sieg Heil" with the right arm lifted.
I haven't started it for that reason (I didn't even notice your response till you pointed it out to me right now). As for my comment in that thread: I was just comenting that specific situation, not the general attitude of german fans (I think it was understood that was a small crowd of hooligans who did the provoking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haku
I have to admit that i don't really get your point either freddie. Germany is eluding WWII? Germany is *obsessed* with WWII actually in my opinion, i have never seen a country feeling so guilty about a past event and beating itself over it on a daily basis, it becomes sometimes a neurotic obsession and reaches insane levels.

Look at Japan, Japan has done its fair share of war crimes during WWII and modern Japan is really not too bothered about it. WWII Japanese soldiers (including kamikazes) are considered heroes, and neither Japan as a nation or Japanese soldiers as individuals (not to mention the late emperor who was the ruler during WWII) are held responsible for anything. Actually Japan often sees itself as ultimately a victim of the war since the US had the incredibly stupid idea to launch two nuclear bombs on civilians just to see what they would do to people.

Look at Russia, the Soviet regime has caused more deaths than the Nazi regime, and yet you don't see modern Russia too bothered about it. Modern Russia is not bothered either by the fact that they oppressed several Central European countries for half a century, sending the Red Army and massacring civilians each time those people made an attempt to free themselves.

And if we stick at WWII war crimes, there were also war crimes committed on the Allied side that are today still totally denied. The bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the bombings of Dresde and Hamburg are war crimes, they had no military goal and their sole prupose was to kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians just for the "fun" of it. Tens of thousands of unarmed civilians, men, women, children, died in atrocious conditions during each of those bombings, and nobody on the Allied side was ever held reponsible, the countries that made those bombings don't even recognize that there was anything wrong with such a massive massacre of civilians, a clear case of denial.
(Bombing Dresde was also a crime against the World Heritage since Dresde was an historical monument as a whole, destroying it was an outrageous act, even the Nazis never considered massively bombing Paris as a viable option because of the historical value of the city and the irreplaceable loss it would cause, the same thinking on the Allied side should have applied to Dresde.)

Modern Germany on the other hand totally acknowledges the war crimes commited during WWII and everything is done to make modern Germans feel guilty about it, it's even going too far in my opinion.
I don't believe in collective responsibility and inherited responsibilty.
The son of a serial killer should not have to apologize to the families of the victims of his father and be reminded everyday of his crimes. And i don't think that forcing a son to watch everyday pictures of the butchered victims of his father will ensure that he will grow up into a kind and caring human being that will never repeat what his father has done.
And here we're not even talking about sons, but grand-sons, and grand-grand-sons, and grand-grand-grand sons who have to apologize for, feel guilty about, and remember what their long gone anscestor has done.
It has become pointless and ridiculous because like i said, i don't believe in inherited responsibilty.
It's not about inherited responsibility, nor Germans (at least in diplomatic stance) eluding WW2. I'm not even saying sons should be paying for sins of tehir fathers or grandfathers... I'm just saying they should recognize it as objective reality, rather than some satanic curse that deluded the nation for 12 years. You say they're obsessed with it... from what I've seen they're more obsessed with making it seem... presentable and distant and at the same time forbidden and (very foolishly) even ILLEGAL. The sheer fact that nazi symbolism is forbidden in any shape or form shows some kind of paranoia (that goes especially for the nation which spawned it all in the first place). Though I do agree with you it's a neurotic obsession... but it's showing in all the wrong ways. Again Societe claims exactly the opposite to what I'm claiming but that's my subjective view of the matter, from what I've seen and talked to people. Not to mention I have some inside view as well - my grandfather was a German from Collogne (he's the 10% of German blood in me, besides all the slavicness), and he had to be a part of Hitler Jugend like so many else. And like you said.. it was/is neurotic obsession, but it was the wrong kind. An exercise in making oneself feel better, I'd say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khartoun2004
well said Haku. Like I said earlier I've never been tp Europe, so I don't really have a clue what it's like... but Your comments on inherited responsibility are so true. I do not in any way blame modern Germany for the crimes committed against my family. That is absolutely ridiculous, I also think it ridiculous that German media goes so far to make people feel gulity about something that their forefathers did. It would be like blaming me for the bombing of Hamburg and Dresden because my grandfather made the bombs.
Of course. Don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone or suggesting modern Germans should feel guilty about something their grandfathers did. The opposite... I'd rather see their accepting it as something that doesn't need tobe swept under the rug. Something that doesn't need to be made illegal, because I'm sure that has an opposite effect to what the legislator expected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
I don't see your point either freddie. What are they supposed to do, revel in the darkest era of their history? Pretend they are "ok" with it? discuss it in what level, these things happened 60-70 years ago, the new-generations of Germans are as relevant as we are with them ( only that they carry the guilt of their forefathers. )
None of the above. Pretending they're okay with it? Why pretending? Why not BE okay with it... be okay in the sense of accepting it and not reating it as a secret satanic cult that needs to be abolished. Like Haku said... neurotic obsession... but I may add that obsession is more about making themselves feel better and distant rather than REALLY being okay with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyretto
I've known a few Germans, and yes, the subject of the Nazi and the Holocaust is an ambarassing topic for them but I havn't sensed complete aversion. You should try to approach the topic in a carefree way, if possible. Yes, they'd rather avoid discussing it if they could and I would do the same if I were a younger generation German.
I on the other had HAVE sensed complete aversion. There's no way of going about it... once you mention the topic it's considered as somekind of a personal offence. That's kind of understandable up to an extent, since most people will get all defensive around the topic since they sense you're pointing the finger at them. Which doesn't neccesarily have to be the case... but in this case it almost always is.
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Last edited by freddie; 16-06-2006 at 17:17.
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Old 16-06-2006, 17:36   #11
marina marina is offline
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About guilt thing ...Let's us not to forget Hitler was able to conquer Germany's neighbours and impose Nazi rule on Europe because European leaders at the time either were unrealistic motherfuckers or openly or overwise supported the aims of the Nazis. They bear part of the responsibility for what happened .
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Old 16-06-2006, 18:58   #12
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Some remarks from an Austrian's view: The problems to discuss this part of our past are not much different from Germany, but definetely not so extreme. (We are a catholic country, we confess our sins and God forgives us. )

We should not be fooled by the fact that there is so much review about the 'Third Reich'. The older people have a hard time to discuss this all and very often refuse to do. But you should understand that we know our fathers and grandfathers who voted for the nazis, took part at their assemblies and legitimized the killing of millions of innocent people, we can't understand them and we are shocked about the way they acted. So we can't speak freely without blaming our relatives of the most malicious crimes of mankind. It's not so much a feeling of guilt than shame and embarrassment.

A word on haku's remarks about war crimes of the others. I refuse to compare with the things the nazis did. Killing millions of Jews and Gypsies has nothing to do with war. The nazis announced that they will rub them out from the surface of earth and millions of german and austrian people cheered, supported them and thus 'legitimized' the genocide. That's completely different to atrocities during, and the ethnic cleanings after the war.

Maybe the media coverage of those times goes too far, but it may be necessary. Much of the identity of the german people, the 'german virtues' are not born during the times after the war, but during nazi time. Discussions about that time lead automatically to questioning the moral values and self understanding of a complete nation, not so much an intellectual problem but an emotional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddie
The sheer fact that nazi symbolism is forbidden in any shape or form shows some kind of paranoia
It is, indeed. Recent example: A member of the 'Green Party' is facing a trial for wearing a button with a crossed out swastica with the slogan 'Nazis, no thank you!' You can see, there is way to much sensibility about this in Germany (well, not very different to Austria)!
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Old 17-06-2006, 15:52   #13
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argos

A word on haku's remarks about war crimes of the others. I refuse to compare with the things the nazis did. Killing millions of Jews and Gypsies has nothing to do with war. The nazis announced that they will rub them out from the surface of earth and millions of german and austrian people cheered, supported them and thus 'legitimized' the genocide. That's completely different to atrocities during, and the ethnic cleanings after the war.
Well, the war would be the capstone for the building up of a Third Reich culture that would outlive them for a thousand years and so genocide was justified by the Nazis for creating an "Aryan race" ( it had more to do with controlling the wealth in my opinion but that is another matter ). And genocide is an illegal strategy in warfair, so in a way it is related to the war. It was an opportunity for the Nazi to annihilate the Jews, so strictly speaking the genocide was a direct means to meeting that end. At the end they bit a lot more than they could chew.
Hiroshima and the bombing of Dresden were also war crimes but not of the same scale. Hiroshima's aftermath was horrific. It had to happen in that way - "to end the war". That's their logic behind it.
The Americans and co are not strangers of war crimes themselves, they're conducting some as we speak.

I personally think that the Austrians are more open with it that the Germans because the extreme-right elements in Austria are now stronger and more to the mainstream. Germans are so guilty of their past that nationalism and extremist right views are still more in the underground. And imo, it should remain that way. It's funny that, thinking how Hitler himself was an Austrian. Not to forget also that the Austrians conceded to Hitler without a bullet being spent ( sort of speak )

Last edited by spyretto; 17-06-2006 at 16:10.
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