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Old 12-04-2006, 21:51   #21
spyretto spyretto is offline
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Migration, my opinion: Absolutely wonderful. It's time we gave something back to the people we were stealing from in the first place.
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Old 12-04-2006, 21:58   #22
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Migration is a natural thing. Swedes moved to the States, Russians moved to Israel, Israeli moved to Germany, Germans moved to Austria, Vietnamese moved to Russia, Polish moved to Sweden! Yeah!

I have a Polish doctor here and I'm thanking God every time I need a dr. appointment because Swedish doctors are simply dumb. Kill me, but they are!

Okay, aside of all those silly examples, I got to say that immigration is a natural thing for survival purposes. It's ruled by our nature. Then, migration is a bless for small countries with native population. I mean some countries of 5 millions people, marrying each other? I don't think there's a lot of future in that.
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Old 12-04-2006, 22:00   #23
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well, even the Swedes migrated to Sweden, didn't they? The Greeks to Greece, the Polish to Poland etc.
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Old 12-04-2006, 22:03   #24
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And they all inhabited that particular piece of land for a reason So why must they all deny their ancestors wishes and move away? j/k
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Old 12-04-2006, 22:10   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anouk
And they all inhabited that particular piece of land for a reason So why must they all deny their ancestors wishes and move away? j/k
Well, it's more or less like this: We export our trash there, they have nothing to export cause we took it all from them in the first place, so they export people. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:01   #26
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ppl who move out r usually ppl that r uber poor and havent managed to create a normal life in their country, cos theyre not capable or smthing i guess the reasons r diff for each. mostly they give their native coutry bad reputation. im mostly talking bout ppl that i see move out of my country and see them when they come back for holidays. its usually ppl from villages, with not much education and no manners. they usually go there to clean or smthing like that

worst part of it is that ppl from countries they go to then think all the ppl from our country r like this.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:07   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebu
ppl who move out r usually ppl that r uber poor and havent managed to create a normal life in their country
Sorry to say but it's a little bit of a complete bs. I'll explain why. Many countries require some achievement before you can apply for a resident visa or you got to have money to be able to have a decent start in another country. I can't call all those people poor and not able creating good life in their own country.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:15   #28
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...not to mention that the top capitalist countries are nowadays targetting the most able people from developed countries, provide them with university scholarships etc., basically recruiting them to work for them.

Just think of the population of China and India...and their best people working for the interests of the U.S., Britain and others.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:22   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forre
Sorry to say but it's a little bit of a complete bs. I'll explain why. Many countries require some achievement before you can apply for a resident visa or you got to have money to be able to have a decent start in another country. I can't call all those people poor and not able creating good life in their own country.
i dont know what achievements have thousands of ppl that moved from here to germany, one goes and bunch of them follow thats how it went and still goes on. and i didnt say all, but most for sure.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:27   #30
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zebu, You maybe spoke on a small scale moving to a neighbour country. We are speaking on a global scale. So do you say that poor Croatians moved to Germany without a penny in the pocket or what? I was translating for a soccer player from Croatia a couple of years ago to get a contract with a Swedish club and he wasn't doing that bad in his own country either. I live in a "right" country and I see all those "poor" immigrants. 90% of them had enough money in their own country.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:32   #31
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As some of you may know I'm planning to immigrate to USA or (more than likely) Canada in a matter of a few years. And I agree with the notion that it isn't an easy task to do. First of all you need to make a hell of a lot of money in your native country before you could even think of immigrating, not to mention the immigration laws are ridiculously strict for an average Joe like me.... so really poor and uneducated poor people are counted out by default. I'm not planning to immigrate for economic reasons (Slovenia is doing well enough in that department and I could probably live relatively better in Slovenia in a few years than I will in my adopted country.) My reason is purely cultural: I want to experience some cultural diversity. It's not exactly stimulating to be surrounded with 95% white slavic people all the time (not that there's anything wrong with white slavic people, but I like all people... I need diversity).

A funny story a lady at the immigration office told me a while back, while I was gathering info. She was of course "off the record". She said that when I apply I should have greater chances just because I'm a caucasian European, especially in certain provinces like Alberta or British Columbia. Why? As she explained it those provinces are starting to "swim in yellow", so the goverment approved an incognito program that favours Euro-caucasian immigration. Gotta love immigrational racism, huh? Scary.
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Old 12-04-2006, 23:44   #32
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zabu described part of the issue, forre another - both are true when it comes to people from Eastern Europe. I am an immigrant from eastern europe and i surely am not a village person without education in fact I am being paid money to go to school here, rather than paying to go (excuse the not so modest reply) ... but i have also seen the gypsies who illegaly fleed from bulgaria to the west. The difference is - legal and illegal ... how many and what jobs can all the illegals get?
and the example above is about Polish in Holland - well Poland is in the EU now so they can get 'your' job and that's RIGHT, if you arent happy and cannot get a job 'cause you're 'too expensive' well, honey, just go to Poland! dont worry, you will NOT have to pay 50% more taxes in fact, everything will be cheaper ... oh wait, you most likely have no idea what it means to immigrate - let me tell you, it is not for everyone
edit: freds added nice reply while i was yping as well. go for it, freds and good luck! That's one of my fav things in the USA - a lot more diversity than anywhere ive been in Europe
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Old 13-04-2006, 04:56   #33
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don't we live in a civilized enough world where the word "migration" is not only archaic but left alone?

the problem of cultural preservation is heightened in eastern europe because of the close proximity of its countries and also because of how much turmoil they have gone through. that is, countries of eastern europe have not only survived wars, they have also survived political and cultural clashes. it's understandable that many of the natives want to preserve and adhere to their heritage and their culture because of the unrest they've experienced culturally and politically. those two things provide a kind of attachment to something deeper than just boundaries, laws, and a governing body. they also create an identity that is important to how people are raised and how they view the world. on the other hand, parts of the world are rapidly integrating and people are more eager to get out and experience something new. it's a clashing of times, because while history is important, so is diversity.
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Old 13-04-2006, 05:43   #34
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Offtop:
Quote:
the problem of cultural preservation is heightened in eastern europe because of the close proximity of its countries and also because of how much turmoil they have gone through. that is, countries of eastern europe have not only survived wars, they have also survived political and cultural clashes. it's understandable that many of the natives want to preserve and adhere to their heritage and their culture because of the unrest they've experienced culturally and politically. those two things provide a kind of attachment to something deeper than just boundaries, laws, and a governing body. they also create an identity that is important to how people are raised and how they view the world. on the other hand, parts of the world are rapidly integrating and people are more eager to get out and experience something new. it's a clashing of times, because while history is important, so is diversity.
Holy crap, I'm not intelligent enough to read that (or maybe just too tired...). You got some mad skillz in writing, Lux.
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Old 13-04-2006, 06:03   #35
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Offtop:
Saw the exact same excerpt posted on wikipedia.com...juuust kidding
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Old 13-04-2006, 06:18   #36
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Anouk, what jobs exactly are you talking about here? Because if you have alot of Polish people coming in at once, "stealng" your jobs, then I imagine those are no classy jobs, more like, what, construction builders? Cleaning? Most Polish people who come to work in other countries because it pays less are generally a bit older (I'm just judging from what I've seen) - the students are busy studying, so to say, and have no time to move in order to work (for that only reason) and generally older Poles don't speak English very well, so that's why I get the feeling that there are not there for any high class jobs. I mean, what would they do? Can't run a cash register - they don't speak the language...

Sorry if I misunderstood, or if I'm speaking out of my ass, maybe you would very much like to be building houses all day.

Quote:
If they want no borders, they should raise the pay to the same level everywhere!!
But that doesn't apply when it means lowering yours, right?
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Old 13-04-2006, 10:32   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenBee
But that doesn't apply when it means lowering yours, right?

They can't just start lowering pay anyway.. You'll get huge strikes and shit, no one will agree, not just me.. Besides, it's already tough to survive here on minimumwage because they keep raising prices for insurance and utilities, etc.. Some people have around 40 euro's left a week to buy food and clothes, which is also very hard because grocery prices went up like 40 to 50% when the euro came.. If they cut our paychecks, it'll mean Holland's downfall
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Old 13-04-2006, 10:41   #38
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Quote:
They can't just start lowering pay anyway..
They can't just raise them either. First of all I don't think there is any money (I mean, I know the huge companies are rich... but I hardly think they would want to share ) and besides, if everyone suddenly gets lots of money it will lead to inflation (I think this is what it's called in English? Sorry, I'm not sure.. :/ ) I think.

I think everybody would agree with you to raise everyone's paycheck, but to actually think that would happen, I believe that's called living in a dream... The companies are doing fine now as far as I know, besides they have people who are willing to work for them so why should they (the companies) care? They've got their money in their bank accounts and a good place in their leather seats.

I totally agree with you that the taxes are too high! Even here in Sweden..

As you said, it's tough to survive on minimumwage, that's one of the reasons to why people go elsewhere to work, where they can get paid more than their country's "standard".

I guess life is what it always has been; some people simply have it good while others have it not so good. I guess you need to work harder than ever to get something better (or we're just complaining more because we're used to our comfortable lives). Let's just remind ourselves we are quite lucky, I mean, obviously we have enough money to pay for Internet.
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Old 13-04-2006, 10:54   #39
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I know they just can't start raising pays aswell.. But these politicians keep going on and on about 1 Europe, bla bla.. Well, if they want it to be more like 1 big state or whatever, they should do something to also make it feel like it's one state and have the same things everywhere, at least when it comes to work, because obviously, if borders are open for everyone, they all would want to work where you earn most.. And since Holland is one of those countries with the highest minimum wage in Europe, they're all coming here.. It's inevitable and I think it'll blow up for the worse soon, and since I'm an actual resident here, I'll (and other residents) will be left with all the crap while the people who came here to work, can just go somewhere else because they're no strings attached for them..
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Old 13-04-2006, 13:12   #40
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Anouk, do you read what you say? I mean seriously ... somehow it is really hard for me to feel sympathy for you as many of my friends back home are making something similar to 100-200 euro a month TOTAL (meaning prior to spending a cent of it) and a lot of the prices aren't that different from EU prices (of course it is cheaper in general, but the ratio is not proportionate). Oh yeah, and my grandma's pension is something like 40 euro for the WHOLE month ... thank god she lives with my aunt and uncle ...

you didnt say what kind of work you were looking for anyway ... someone mentioned earlier, lots of the immigrants get the not so 'desired' positions ... and if it is a job for which qualifications and education/experience is required, well, whose fault is it that you arent matching the criteria? The survival of the fittest .... .
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