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Old 30-04-2007, 09:49   #61
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Originally Posted by Talyubittu View Post
my response was that we have a way to small a population of transgenders to make laws for them.
Woah. First, hey, nice to meet ya.

Second off...I gotta ask: even though they're a small percentage of the population, why wouldn't you want to make laws protecting them?

- We have laws that protect consumers with x amount of debt from being hassled by collection agencies.
- We have laws that protect disabled persons from workplace discrimination.
- And we have laws that protect religious minorities, like Muslims and Unitarians, from religious discrimination.

So, even though all of the three above groups of people (consumers in debt, disabled persons, and religious minorities) are a small percentage of the US population, we as a society are compassionate and extend protections to them that they cannot achieve in and of themselves. Saying that transgender individuals aren't worthy of legal protection and recourse not only sounds un-compassionate, but it sounds hateful. As a gay man, I'm also in the minority of Americans, but I still firmly believe I should be protected from hateful/harmful attacks by other people.

Wouldn't you agree?
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Old 30-04-2007, 09:59   #62
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Originally Posted by Ace of Order View Post
Woah. First, hey, nice to meet ya.

Second off...I gotta ask: even though they're a small percentage of the population, why wouldn't you want to make laws protecting them?

- We have laws that protect consumers with x amount of debt from being hassled by collection agencies.
- We have laws that protect disabled persons from workplace discrimination.
- And we have laws that protect religious minorities, like Muslims and Unitarians, from religious discrimination.

So, even though all of the three above groups of people (consumers in debt, disabled persons, and religious minorities) are a small percentage of the US population, we as a society are compassionate and extend protections to them that they cannot achieve in and of themselves. Saying that transgender individuals aren't worthy of legal protection and recourse not only sounds un-compassionate, but it sounds hateful. As a gay man, I'm also in the minority of Americans, but I still firmly believe I should be protected from hateful/harmful attacks by other people.

Wouldn't you agree?
Yes I do agree. And I'm glad you brought it up. Most places of employment here recognize "Sexual Orientation" as something that can be discriminated against, and many of them follow through with sexual orientation descrimination. I'd rather these companies do it on their own LIKE these are, than doing it only because they're required to by law.

However, in order for a law to be passed, it needs a purpose. - Five transexuals in South Dakota who want a law passed, will never get one no matter how much they wish for it, because they don't represent the number of people needed to promose a said law. Not to mention, like I said, it's virtually non existant here. I highly, highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that we have ANY transexuals in this state.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:02   #63
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it eliminates popularity from the equation entirely
Are you serious? Popularity IS the sole reason a person is picked. The people who win are generally WELL liked. It's not because they're simply "popular". Believe it or not, most of us are nice people. And there is nothing wrong with being well liked.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:16   #64
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Originally Posted by Talyubittu View Post
Yes I do agree. And I'm glad you brought it up. Most places of employment here recognize "Sexual Orientation" as something that can be discriminated against, and many of them follow through with sexual orientation descrimination. I'd rather these companies do it on their own LIKE these are, than doing it only because they're required to by law.

However, in order for a law to be passed, it needs a purpose. - Five transexuals in South Dakota who want a law passed, will never get one no matter how much they wish for it, because they don't represent the number of people needed to promose a said law. Not to mention, like I said, it's virtually non existant here. I highly, highly, highly, HIGHLY doubt that we have ANY transexuals in this state.
Well, I don't have an awful lot of confidence in your assertion that you have no transsexuals in your state.

Gender Identity and Expression can take a LOT of different forms. Technically speaking, a boy who wears girls jeans (re: "emo boys") is cross-dressing, and that is transcending the gender barrier and being transgender, though not to the same degree as a transsexual.

Did a small bit of research and here are a few links to some Transgender support groups for transgender people:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...d=242&state=SD
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...t=MTF&state=SD

I don't know, kind of make me wonder why there would be support groups for a population that doesn't exist, eh?

I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.

And well dude, I'm not transgender, but you better BELIEVE I care enough for people who are that I would lobby my state for protections for them. White men lobbied to give black folks the right to vote and ban racial discrimination, and men helped women get the right to vote.

I'm actually lobbying now for a bill at the RI General Assembly that would outlaw hate-crimes based on Gender Identity/Expression because I think it is wrong. It's the one thing RI law doesn't protect against, sadly. Lesbians that cut their hair short like a boy's are affected by Gender Identity legislation, just like boys that wear short-shorts are sometimes picked on for dressing like girls. I've heard some of the testimony... not all of it just impacts the transgender community.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:20   #65
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Originally Posted by Ace of Order View Post
Well, I don't have an awful lot of confidence in your assertion that you have no transsexuals in your state.

Gender Identity and Expression can take a LOT of different forms. Technically speaking, a boy who wears girls jeans (re: "emo boys") is cross-dressing, and that is transcending the gender barrier and being transgender, though not to the same degree as a transsexual.

Did a small bit of research and here are a few links to some Transgender support groups for transgender people:

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...d=242&state=SD
http://www.tgcrossroads.org/resource...t=MTF&state=SD

I don't know, kind of make me wonder why there would be support groups for a population that doesn't exist, eh?

I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.

And well dude, I'm not transgender, but you better BELIEVE I care enough for people who are that I would lobby my state for protections for them. White men lobbied to give black folks the right to vote and ban racial discrimination, and men helped women get the right to vote.

I'm actually lobbying now for a bill at the RI General Assembly that would outlaw hate-crimes based on Gender Identity/Expression because I think it is wrong. It's the one thing RI law doesn't protect against, sadly. Lesbians that cut their hair short like a boy's are affected by Gender Identity legislation, just like boys that wear short-shorts are sometimes picked on for dressing like girls. I've heard some of the testimony... not all of it just impacts the transgender community.

Dear you need to read my post on the last page. I do not believe in "gender identity", and neither do many people. It's something you learn, you are not born with it. Gender identity support groups are there for no purpose other than to provide comfort. They are baised and do not give oppinions from both sides of the argument. - Study up some psychology and where the term came from to understand what it is.

Quote:
"tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.
Anytime someone attacks another person I believe it's out of hate? So why give some guy another 5 years in prison becuase he happened to be attacing a tranny? Hmm? Are you aware of the damage hate crimes do? - A boy who eats lunch at school containing pork was nearly prosecuted because he was sitting next to an Islamic child. That is not something we need happening just because transgenders exist. - You CHOSE to be a transgender and get a sex change, you do not chose your sexuality. I do not believe something you could have prevented/not done should be grounds for someone else to be punished for a "hate crime".

Quote:
I would disagree with the law not having a purpose: A state can send a powerful message to it's citizens by standing up for an individual's right to lead a happy life without worrying about being fired from work, kicked out of a home, or blatantly attacked on the street by a group of punks screaming "tranny! you look like a girl! effing fa**ot!" with no chance of legal hate-crime recourse.
As I said, we don't have a large enough population IF any. Honestly, you've probably never even been to the state I live in, so please don't insinuate that there are transanything here. I'm almost 100 percent confident that there are not.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:22   #66
Khartoun2004 Khartoun2004 is offline
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I would also like to point out that the Transgender community in the United States has the highest murder rate of any minority in the country. In fact the rate is sooo astronomical that the Transgender Day of Rememberance has been observed nation wide longer than the Day of Silence for LGBT youth in schools.

Talyubittu, do you still want to contend that Trans people in your state do not deserve the right to live, even though you think their population is so insignificant?
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:25   #67
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Talyubittu, do you still want to content that Trans people in your state do not deserve the right to live, even though you think their population is so insignificant?
For some odd reason, none of my posts seem to say they don't deserve the right to live. So whats your point?

Quote:
I would also like to point out that the Transgender community in the United States has the highest murder rate of any minority in the country. In fact the rate is sooo astronomical that the Transgender Day of Rememberance has been observed nation wide longer than the Day of Silence for LGBT youth in schools.
Edit: - The transgender day of remembrance has only been running since 1998.

The day of silence was started in 1997.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:32   #68
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I'm going to bed, I'll continue this debate tomorrow.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:34   #69
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Transgender Day of Remembrance.

HRC stats on Trans violence... scroll down to Hate Violence.
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Old 30-04-2007, 10:41   #70
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Mmm...alright buddy.

First off, I'm a second year Psychology and Political Science Double-Major at the University of Rhode Island, one of the best Psychology schools in the country. And psychologists are in concert that there IS such a thing as Gender Identity and Expression.

I assume that you acknowledge a difference between your anatomical sex (tip: Look under your boxers) and your sense of gender. That's pretty general psychology, so I shouldn't have to cover that. So, since you are confident that you're a boy (You know: You feel comfortable with getting facial and body hair, and you are comfortable with your penis, and the roles society expects you to live up to as a man), wouldn't you agree that you have a sense of "identity" because of your gender?

It's one thing, dude, to say that you personally do not believe in gender identity, but to debunk science and declare that gender identity and expression are not valid is incorrect, and I think that perhaps YOU need to do some brushing up on psychology and the relationship between the body and the mind. Especially check up on Maslow's theory of Self-Actualization.

And dude...

Quote:
Anytime someone attacks another person I believe it's out of hate? So why give some guy another 5 years in prison becuase he happened to be attacing a tranny? Hmm?
No, that is not correct. For something to be a Hate-Crime you need to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the primary motive behind the intrusive and/or harmful action was a sincere hate for an aspect of yourself that you cannot help. Race, sex, religion, age, sexual orientation.

For instance, a punk sees a woman on the street and decides to hold her at gunpoint and rob her. Is his primary motive the fact that she is a woman? No, because it could easily be argued in court that if a scrawney looking man, a young boy, or an african-american woman were standing there, they probably had an equal chance of being robbed.

But if a boy is walking down the street and a car stops, some punks get out, call the boy a fa**ot and taunt him and then beat him up and speed off, it IS a hate crime because the perpetrator demonstrated active hatred for the boy's perceived sexual orientation. In court, with a witness, it can be proven that the punks were in fact irritated enough by the boy's perceived sexual orientation to act out and harm him, and if sexual orientation is a protected class in that state/country's Hate Crimes act, it can be invoked and the perpetrator can receive a harsher sentence.

Quote:
As I said, we don't have a large enough population IF any. Honestly, you've probably never even been to the state I live in, so please don't insinuate that there are transanything here. I'm almost 100 percent confident that there are not.
No, I have not been to South Dakota, but I do know that my boss has been to Council of State Legislatures meetings, and that stuff like this has come up before the States, and it is a problem everywhere. Every state, from Maine to Alabama to Minnesota to Wyoming and yea, even South Dakota. Are you honestly going to sit here and tell me that out of the 700,000 people in your state, not ONE of them (Not a ONE) is transgender? Not only does that go against statistics (Ruddimentary studies estimate 1 in every 30,000 people is transsexual: Source: Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology {4th ed.}, Comer, pg. 345-347, in case, you happen to have the book), it goes against common sense. Transgender people, being an umbrella term, has a MUCH higher prevalence.

Have you ever seen a drag queen/drag king? (A girl in a tuxedo or a suit of any kind IS considered cross-dressing, by the way.)

Last edited by Ace of Order; 30-04-2007 at 15:43. Reason: QUOTE HTML hates me, and I found my source!
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Old 30-04-2007, 15:16   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyubittu View Post
For some odd reason, none of my posts seem to say they don't deserve the right to live. So whats your point?
My point is that when an entire group of people are targeted for murder and Hate Crimes legislation is not passed, it's essentially saying that they are not worthy of the basic human right to live free of persecution. Which if you've ever taken the time to read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, you would know is not an American value. This country was founded on the principle of every person's; independent of race, creed, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, ethnicty, national origin or religion, inherent worth and dignity. The job of the state and government is to protect those that are unable to protect themselves no matter what percentage of the population they make up.

If you disagree, I suggest you take out a copy of John Locke's Second Treatise on Civil Government which heavily influenced the creation of the United States of America. Citizens of a democratic state give up certain rights to the government with the expectation that the government will protect them from others infinging on their rights, so that they may spend their time and energy in the pursuit of other things like "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Property". This includes Transgender individuals (which encompasses more than just transsexuals)... I'm assuming that South Dakota has girls that are tomboys and effiminate acting boys... they are also covered under the term Transgender.

Then again I think the Boston Glode sums it up nicely also.
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Last edited by Khartoun2004; 30-04-2007 at 15:35.
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Old 01-05-2007, 05:51   #72
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And psychologists are in concert that there IS such a thing as Gender Identity and Expression.
And doctors and many scientists believe that psychology is a completely inprecise branch of education. I don't believe in it. Anyone can say something and put a bullshit story behind it. Thats what this entire "Gender expression" is. If you ask any medical doctor they'll say it dosen't exist and that it's just a wanting of the oppposite sex. It's not gender expression anymore than deciding to wear a certain namebrand clothing is ___ expression.

Quote:
I'm assuming that South Dakota has girls that are tomboys and effiminate acting boys... they are also covered under the term Transgender.
Yes, the term transgender applies to anyone who is taken out of what is expected from them in society. However - girls have been involved with many male related things for the last half century, I believe the defiinition needs updating. None of the girls I know who play sports or anything seem to fall out of their female social range. There is a BIG difference in a girl who wants to play sports, and work on cars compared to a girl who wants a penis.
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:22   #73
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Are you a Scientologist?
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:52   #74
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Are you a Scientologist?
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Nope, I just believe there is a LARGE difference in the study of the mind, and the study of made up conditions to fit a social pattern that has always been present when discussing a social-gender role. | If psychology was just a study of the mind it would be a different case, it's not that simple anymore however. Many of you people argue that psychology explains gender identity to be anyone who dosen't fit into a social category that is usually associated with that persons biological sex. - This does not mean that you can RANDOMLY decide you want to be the opposite sex. You are confusing terms. Transgender and transexual are different, and not everyone who is transgender wishes to be the opposite sex. If all of you who claim to have such advanced study in psychology would have been studying 50 years ago, you would have also been told that homosexuality was a mental dissease. So whats your point? Psychology is an opinionated derative of science. It's not exact by any means. The human mind isn't a tool that is read like a book, so I don't know why colleges and universities think that you can learn and study the nature of it by one.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:31   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyubittu View Post
Offtop:
Nope, I just believe there is a LARGE difference in the study of the mind, and the study of made up conditions to fit a social pattern that has always been present when discussing a social-gender role. | If psychology was just a study of the mind it would be a different case, it's not that simple anymore however. Many of you people argue that psychology explains gender identity to be anyone who dosen't fit into a social category that is usually associated with that persons biological sex. - This does not mean that you can RANDOMLY decide you want to be the opposite sex. You are confusing terms. Transgender and transexual are different, and not everyone who is transgender wishes to be the opposite sex. If all of you who claim to have such advanced study in psychology would have been studying 50 years ago, you would have also been told that homosexuality was a mental dissease. So whats your point? Psychology is an opinionated derative of science. It's not exact by any means. The human mind isn't a tool that is read like a book, so I don't know why colleges and universities think that you can learn and study the nature of it by one.
Offtop:
The same way as you can study the nature of evolution or space without really having anything absolutely tangible to fall back upon. Science is about making guesses and then substantiating those guesses with controled experiements. Even the laws of nature aren't really "laws". They're just our description of how four fundamental forces react in a 3D environment. The same with psychology. It tries to get answers from studying human psyche and as far as I'm concerned it's just as valid as any other scientific field of research.
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Old 01-05-2007, 09:58   #76
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The same way as you can study the nature of evolution or space without really having anything absolutely tangible to fall back upon. Science is about making guesses and then substantiating those guesses with controled experiements. Even the laws of nature aren't really "laws". They're just our description of how four fundamental forces react in a 3D environment. The same with psychology. It tries to get answers from studying human psyche and as far as I'm concerned it's just as valid as any other scientific field of research.
You are not comparing it to something that is certain, so of course you'll get that conclusion. You're comparing it to the unknown, in essence - itself.

Psychology is a branch of medicine, however, if you compare psychology and pediatrics, you'll notice that pediatrics, along with all other medical ailments, are tangible, and can therefore be proven to exist. They all have the same definate outcome most of the time, it's not the same as comparing it to something else that has a Infinity! amount of outcomes.
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Old 01-05-2007, 20:33   #77
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Psychology is a branch of science, not medicine. The actual definition of psychology is: The scientific study of human behavior and mental processes (Discovering Psychology, 3rd Edition, pg. 3). Psychiatry is a branch of medicine that deals with mental, emotional, and behavioral disorders. Please do not confuse the two terms. A psychiatrist is enabled to prescribe medicine, a psychologist is not.

The thing about science, Talyubittu, is that ALL of the acknowledged sciences rely on hypotheses and proving/disproving those hypotheses in order to define our world. Psychology is a COMPLETELY legit school of science because it follows the laws of the Scientific Method, using hypotheses about how the mind works to piece together the puzzle of our minds and behaviors.

Your point about homosexuality being a mental disorder 40 years ago is moot. Psychology as a science has analyzed homosexuality many, many times over the years, through thousands of different circumstances and people, and we have reached a conclusion as a school that homosexuality is a legit sexual orientation. That is our modern belief.

You'll recall that recently, science has changed it's collective mind on several ideas we once took for fact. For instance, Pluto is no longer considered a planet of our solar system. The Human Genome project: It was once believed that you had a gene for every single protein in your body. That has since been dis-proven. Finally, transgenderism is now believed to be a biological disorder instead of a mental disorder (http://www.harrybenjaminsyndrome-info.org). It is classified as an inter-sex condition. (Disclaimer: HBS is classified as Gender Identity Disorder by the DSM-IV TR, but the scientific community is confident that in the next revision of the book, GID will be replaced by HBS.)

Science evolves through the ages, my friend. Keep in mind that, during the early days of human civilization, most civilizations welcomed and embraced homosexuality. Greece, Egypt, Sumeria, India, Rome, etc. Science is now going full circle with it's idea on homosexuality.

As for comparing psychology and pediatrics, I do not think that is a valid comparison. Psychology is an investigational branch of science, a family it shares with biology, chemistry, and physics, while pediatrics is a medicinal science, along with radiology, urology, endocrinology, and oncology.
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Old 01-05-2007, 21:24   #78
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Psychology is an investigational branch of science
Point made.
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Old 01-05-2007, 21:57   #79
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Not so fast.

Being an investigational science does not disqualify psychology's finding and assertions as valid, nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete. Please keep in mind that many, many schools of science are investigational, like the examples I gave. Also keep in mind that every single scientific book and journal out there are based off what "investigational" sciences say is correct.

Just because something is investigational does not mean is it not right. It's just that what we think is "right" evolved over time. And right now, at this point in history, the scientific community believes that homosexuality is valid, and it believes that gender identity and expression are valid, and it believes that GID/HBS is valid.

Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means, dude... investigational is not synonymous to imaginary. It just means "this is what we believe to be true and correct, until such evidence comes forth as to make us question this conclusion again.” Which does happen, often.
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Old 01-05-2007, 22:03   #80
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Originally Posted by Ace of Order View Post
Not so fast.

Being an investigational science does not disqualify psychology's finding and assertions as valid, nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete. Please keep in mind that many, many schools of science are investigational, like the examples I gave. Also keep in mind that every single scientific book and journal out there are based off what "investigational" sciences say is correct.

Just because something is investigational does not mean is it not right. It's just that what we think is "right" evolved over time. And right now, at this point in history, the scientific community believes that homosexuality is valid, and it believes that gender identity and expression are valid, and it believes that GID/HBS is valid.

Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means, dude... investigational is not synonymous to imaginary. It just means "this is what we believe to be true and correct, until such evidence comes forth as to make us question this conclusion again.” Which does happen, often.
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nor does it mean that we shouldn't take what psychology says as concrete.
Yes. Because you're suffering from the mental dissease of homosexuality aren't you?

Quote:
Your response makes me think that you do not fully understand what being an investigational science means
I'm guessing it has something to do with theory and something that hasn't been proven correct, however foundations support the said answer.

Quote:
Gender Identity
Like I said. There's a difference in wanting to be the opposite sex and doing things that the opposite sex usually does. It's not the same thing.
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