European Union - General discussion

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by coolasfcuk

Well Bulgaria is up to join EU as well ... in January 2007 and about to sign in April 2005.... what can i say ... Romania, Bulgaria - the difference is minimal.

According to this article by yahoo.com, there are distinct differences in terms of democratic and economic institutions, between the two countries:

Romania, Bulgaria sign 'historic' EU entry pact

Well, I don't know, I'm positive about the whole thing and I always have been. That was the idea of the early "European Community" anyway: to gradually encompass all European nations and strengthen peace and ecomonic stability within the Union. I think there'll be no problem with Bulgaria and Romania joining, if not in 2007, maybe a bit later. The biggest challenge for the EU won't be Bulgaria or Romania but Turkey. As for the Ukraine, they should be free to join if they make the political reforms and economic adjustments necessary because they're historically part of Europe, be it under the influence of Russia or not. The UK is traditionally under the influence of one U.S.A, in fact they feel more American than European. They're shunning the constitution and currency, but that hasn't prevented them from being full members. They're all political decisions after all. If there was to be a referendum tomorrow on leaving or staying in the EU , I wouldn't be surprised if the Brits voted in favour of the former. So it may be that the Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians, or even the Albanians, feel more "European" than the Brits, after all.

So let them all in. The food has gone better since the UK joined the EU, and I wouldn't mind it at all if the Isles were infested by Eastern bloc babes

[haku]

We said no… I can't believe it… I feel so utterly ashamed.

Of course it was predictable, many things have upset French people in recent years; social dumping from new eastern members that were probably integrated too soon in the EU, the beginning of talks for Turkey to become a member which French people radically oppose, the fact that many EU countries supported the US war instead of the French-German anti-war position, and more generally France losing more and more influence within EU institutions.

But that's no excuse, that's a shame and a catastrophe for the country, 50 years of work for nothing, and a lifetime dream that just vanished for me. *falls into depression*

[coolasfcuk]

Originally Posted by haku

We said no… I can't believe it… I feel so utterly ashamed.

yeah, I just read here, in the 'parisian News' for Bulgarian Francophones : http://www.parisvesti.com/?u_s=2&u_a=189&sid= - it says that The French said NON supposedly, as stated in the article, this will not affect the Romania and Bulgarian joining in 2007 (for now its said), but i doubt it that would hold

spy, I just saw your post as welll, and the link is not working

[forre]

Originally Posted by haku

We said no… I can't believe it… I feel so utterly ashamed.

It was expected. The constitution goes to the trash-can as there's no further prospect. A sort of pity as it was worth to give it a try.

The analysts said that French people would probably vote "No" to demonstrate its disagreement with the current French government generally.

[nath]

I've voted "No"....

Not because of

Originally Posted by haku

social dumping from new eastern members that were probably integrated too soon in the EU, ....., the fact that many EU countries supported the US war instead of the French-German anti-war position, and more generally France losing more and more influence within EU institutions.

....but because of the constitution itself: we've spent so many years before to succeed to vote for our President in a Direct Vote ...the french people chooses directly its President....I don't want to not be able to vote Directly for the President of Europe....

[haku]

The Netherlands also said no to Europe. The EU is dead. I guess it's only fair that it would be two founding members that would destroy what they started 50 years ago.

[forre]

Originally Posted by haku

The EU is dead

Not too fast, please. It was about the constitution only. EU remains.

[haku]

The EU won't last long without a constitution, the current treaty (treaty of Nice) was only meant as an interim treaty until the constitution would be adopted, the treaty of Nice doesn't allow the EU to function properly with 25 members for very long, it doesn't allow any efficient decision making and soon EU institutions will come to a still, totally unable to reach any decisions.

The EU is dead because the historical French-German alliance that followed WWII is now destroyed and the EU won't advance anymore without that essential alliance. The EU is dead because the winners of that new situation are the UK and its 'new Europe' pro-US eastern buddies that only joined the EU to destroy it, under this new anglo-saxon leadership, the EU is going to decay into a loose free economic zone with no political control and no social regulations, the opposite of what Monet and Schumann wanted.

The EU is dead because French and Dutch people, two founding members, have become anti-European. Extreme nationalism is back like in the 1930s, people want their countries to leave the EU and go back to nation states with closed borders, like before WWII. People have forgotten the devastations of WWII and why the EU was created in the first place.

It's a late victory for the totalitarian leaders of the 1930s, in a way they were right, it was a mistake to think that we could build a European Confederation through a peaceful democratic process, obviously such an historical change can only be achieved through a new continental war.

[nath]

Originally Posted by haku

The Netherlands also said no to Europe. The EU is dead. I guess it's only fair that it would be two founding members that would destroy what they started 50 years ago.

Indeed if all other countries say "no"....France won't be isolated....and they would be obliged to listen the voice of People....so if all other countries say NO....Of course, it will take a long time, but it would be possible to build a new constitution, I hope a better constitution.
So don't be desesperated Pat.

PS:Pat , i read your post after having posted mine...and I 'm asking myself a question in reading it ...I surely misunderstood your post...but...I have the feeling that you "see" the Future Europe " as a kind of BIG FRANCE-GERMANY.....I mean about the ideologies.....I say that in relation with what you wrote about UK , for exemple.....
So I don't understand something....the future Europe wouldn't be a Europe with 25 countries...25 members ???
Because in reading you , I have really the feeling that as France was in the creation of this Europe, for exemple , France will have more right, more power than the other countries....

So I ask to myself WHY ?... We will be 25....is it because we are the older than the other countries have to "obey" to us and to follow our style of life , our style of thinking ?...
Because we made REVOLUTION 200 years ago than all the other peoples have to shut up and to venerate us ?...

I think that for a lot of people in France , it's seen like that : Europe would be a big "thing" following the "rules/models " of France and Germany ...
And I even can imagine the huge deception of our Président Jacques Chirac....I voted for him...and not because I was forced to do it ....but I won't never do it again, even if he was ready for another mandate.....because he's changed a lot during last years because of Europe...he became arrogant ....he wasn't seeing himself and acting just as the President of France but as if he was ALREADY THE PRESIDENT OF EUROPE !!!
As if it was an evidence , of course, that the Future President would be a French or a German....

So I just ask myself if it's fair....we will be 25 members isn't it?....
1/ Sorry but I feel we(French) are a little pretentious....we are the best ... I will be clear here...I love my country ...in the meaning that I love the FREEDOM which I have in my country...I think I'm very lucky ...BUT ...even if i would really fight to protect what was built in my country (state of mind...relation with freedom...) I don't see which right we have to impose it to others.....

2/When you see what happened in Africa with ethnic wars....what happened in Ex-Yougoslavia with all these horrible crimes just because peoples had different origines and mentalities...(of course it should be the fault of USA.... ).... I wonder how easy it would be deal with 25 members....
Just the simple problem of religion...France is a laïc state... some other countries aren't ...Europe has to be Laïc or not ? (About absorbtion for exemple , they've said each country will follow its own rules....because of this problem of religion...)

So if we follow the idea that France/Germany will be the model to follow ...
1/ As a French woman it's good for me cause I want to keep my free choice of decision if I want to have an absorbtion or not...
but ...as a free mind I think
2/ It's unfair that other countries which have different tyles of life have to follow "our " rules just because we were at the origine of Europe and we made the Revolution the first...

If the future shows that Egality of the rights of the 25 members has to be ....
1/ I'ld be glad cause I would think it's fair..
2/ But if somebody delete , one day , the right I have to absorbtion......believe me I Make/Do a New Revolution!!!

All this long and annoying post , just to say .....
1/ that I'm not against the Idea of a Big Europe....but I don't think it would be sooo easy ....cause we are very different ...
2/ that the Idea that it's an Evidence that it will be the France/Germany which will be the DRIVERS , the LEADERS of Future Europe is Dangerous.....

And as I'm a naïve mind , I ask myself a last question ...WHY EUROPE ? .....I mean ...I'm not interested in listening the "beautiful/political lovely speaches" which speak about LOVE.....I mean ...Frankly speaking ...do we really want all the other countries of Europe follow the wonderfull example of France just because we "Love" them and we want they become happy thanks to us ?....
Frankly speaking I would answer to you that the french people is an egocentric people and really doesn't care about the happiness of its neighboors...
When he cares, if you observe well ...it is just because "he" is afraid about "his" own security or just because his "counsciousness"....he feel lighter in his counsciousness in wanting peace eveywhere and it avoids to him to pay a psychanalyst!!....
I know my words are hard but I really believe them...

So WHY EUROPE? frankly speaking ....if it's just for ECONOMICAL ASPECT ....aren't we hidding a Pure CAPITALISM MIND under wonderful words as PACIFISM, FREEDOM, EQUALITY?...

I Have to think about that so I go to my bed now ...The Night Brings Advice...hihi...
Seriously ,there were just some questions which were mine and that I wanted to share with you may be to see more light after..

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by haku

The Netherlands also said no to Europe. The EU is dead. I guess it's only fair that it would be two founding members that would destroy what they started 50 years ago.

Always exaggerating...What you say is wishful thinking and wishful thinking only... the EU is now stronger than ever. The EU is primarily an economic union. The economic incentives that bond the nations together are now stronger than ever. That was the reason for the existence of the EU in the first place, with a consitution, with an ammended constitution or without a constitution at all.
Anyway, people have spoken and they don't want the constitution. When the mountain can't go to Mohammed, Mohammed can go to the mountain.

[haku]

Originally Posted by nath

it would be possible to build a new constitution, I hope a better constitution.

There won't be a new constitution, and this one will end up in the trash. The UK is now the clear leader of the EU and they are going to reshape it to their liking, they are going to turn the EU into an ultraliberal free market zone and destroy any political or social aspects that France and Germany were trying to build, it's a great victory for the UK (and the US behind them).
The trouble is, i've never been interested in an economic union unless it's part of a political one, and now French people have decided that there will be no political union and want to go back to a closed nation state, ok, so be it, Jean-Marie Le Pen's point of view has won, but i won't be a part of that.

Originally Posted by nath

the future Europe wouldn't be a Europe with 25 countries...25 members ?

We were supposed to reach about 35 members ultimately, it won't happen now.

Originally Posted by nath

WHY

Because France and Germany are the two largest founding members and have always been the ones that were pushing forward for more European integration. The EU constitution was a French-German creation and we managed to convinced the other members that it would be a good thing for the EU to have a constitution. France even managed to get rid of all religious references in the text even though almost all other members wanted it, it was a great victory for France, the EU constitution was actually largely inspired by the French constitution, well, it was a great victory until we shoot ourselves in the head last sunday. No wonder the British are laughing their ass off all over the kingdom, it's always funny to see the French destroy their own creation.

Originally Posted by nath

WHY EUROPE ?

The original goal was to prevent war between members to avoid a new continental devastation, and then to create a new political superpower that would be able to face the US, China, or India in global strategy. We are 455 million people in the EU currently, and our opinion is worth NOTHING on an international level because we are not politically unified. Of course with the French and Dutch votes, both goals are now failures.


Anyway, i voted yes, you voted no, my point of view lost, your point of view won, there's not much to add. And i'm taking a break as i'm feeling too depressed about all this and need to retreat.

[spyretto]

Haha, actually the idea is that even if the people say no to the constitution, they really have no choice. I'm sure Chirac and his pro EU buddies will find their own way of pushing things towards some form of constitution after all, even if it takes longer.
That's what the chaps were saying in the news here.
So all is not lost for your Utopian dream to be realised haku. Although I doubt people would be ok with the idea of a cabinet in Brussels running their own country, they might succumb to it sooner or later. What's the difference anyway.
Even Blair is pro-Euro.

So don't be that pessimistic

[forre]

I agree with spy on economic ties. Nothing will happen to EU. You may continue sleeping well, haku.

2 countries said "no" and 9 countries said "yes". The future of the constitution will be decided during the top EU meeting in two weeks.

[nath]

Originally Posted by haku

The trouble is, i've never been interested in an economic union unless it's part of a political one, and now French people have decided that there will be no political union and want to go back to a closed nation state, ok, so be it, Jean-Marie Le Pen's point of view has won, but i won't be a part of that..

It's a little "easy" Haku..... I'm not often really angry but I could become here...
If you see me , having a "nationalist-Extrem Right"vision about my country ....let me tell you that your vision of Europe is a Very Nationalist Vision: a "Big France"...

Originally Posted by haku

The original goal was to prevent war between members to avoid a new continental devastation, and then to create a new political superpower that would be able to face the US, China, or India in global strategy. We are 455 million people in the EU currently, and our opinion is worth NOTHING on an international level because we are not politically unified. Of course with the French and Dutch votes, both goals are now failures.
.

a new political superpower that would be able to face the US, China, or India in global strategy ....may be a typo, here, Haku...I think you've forgotten a word: "a new political and economical superpower that would be able to face the US, China, or India in global strategy.."...if you neglect this aspect , I'm not sure your vision about the furture Europe is complete...

About war...I remember you we have/had political "alliances"....USA was one of them....At the beginning of the Irak Conflict , Jacques Chirac considering him already as the "President of Europe"...the "Empereur of Europe", and becoming at this vision a perfect "Megalomane", has publicly HUMILIATED the UsA which was our allies....
I consider that as a VERY IMPORTANT FAULT!...I mean I absolutely agree that France disagrees with the engagement in Iraq war and expresses its desapprobation to the States....but in all times , in the Political World , we always use Diplomatic Words ...even when we speak to the worse terrorists or dictators!!!!....

Originally Posted by haku

the EU constitution was actually largely inspired by the French constitution

...yes but WHICH ONE?...this is one of my main problem about this constitution....We are under the 5th Republic...in the present days...this constitution is inspired from the 4th Republic !!!!...so I don't see something which goes ahead but goes back...

I'm not against Europe....I've voted YES to Europe in the previous referendum.
But I don't think this constitution is a good text, that's all.

And my other problem is that I'm a little afraid that "with the precipitation to become the Most Powerfull" and with our arrogance and pretention...we transform a good idea in a Babel Tower!

Haku...You want a Unified Europe....Have you noticed how much you hate UK, yourself?

[spyretto]

Originally Posted by forre

I agree with spy on economic ties. Nothing will happen to EU. You may continue sleeping well, haku.

2 countries said "no" and 9 countries said "yes". The future of the constitution will be decided during the top EU meeting in two weeks.

Greece didn't even have a referendum. Ya, the parliament voted for yes. I have a serious doubt the people would say yes, though. So much about democracy.

[forre]

Originally Posted by spyretto

Greece didn't even have a referendum. Ya, the parliament voted for yes. I have a serious doubt the people would say yes, though. So much about democracy.

Sweden is going to do the same.

[luxxi]

Originally Posted by haku

We said no… I can't believe it… I feel so utterly ashamed.

Goes to prove that if you want to do soemthing you have to ignore will of the people. Screw democracy, let political elites decide instead of the people. People sometimes vote in a way government doesn't want them to. Can't have that.

Originally Posted by haku

The EU is dead because French and Dutch people, two founding members, have become anti-European. Extreme nationalism is back like in the 1930s, people want their countries to leave the EU and go back to nation states with closed borders, like before WWII. People have forgotten the devastations of WWII and why the EU was created in the first place.

Do you know why Dutch voten nee? Several reasons.
1. They were afraid EU will force them to change their laws (soft drugs, euthanasia, gay marriages....). I thought that you woudl understand that.
2. Because they had euro crammed down their throats and weren't asked about it. Not to mention gulden was undervaluated re german mark. This tends to p/o people.

As I siad above, can't let people decide what they want. That's why politicians are for.

[freddie]

Haku, the french "non" doesn't seem like extreme nationalism of the 30s, to me. They said no to the CONSTITUTION. It just means we'll all follow the rules of the Nice Contract for a bit longer. It's not like the two things differ all that much. The constitution is just a normal evolution in the path of Rome-Mastricht-Amsterdam-Nice agreements. It'll be accepted sooner or later. Probably in a revised form, but nevertheless. I think the french people acted negatively towards the constitution simply cause they're fed up with it's elitist goverment, who couldn't present the pros of a more unified Europe to them properly.

Luxxi: Aristotel (might have been Plato as well) said democracy is chaos. I'd tend to agree judging from recent reports that Dutch & French people on average didn't know anything about the content of the constitution. They didn't even know what they were saying no to. It's like turning down a blind date, to get back at one's tyranic father (goverment).

[spyretto]

Actually, democracy was never about the will of the people. It was just another system next to oligargy and tyranny. It was only perceived as such by the modern societies which foresaw in it the most stable system for the perpetuation of a certain status quo with the least degree of direct censorship - and therefore was pushed along those lines. To have true representation of the will of the people is a utopia.
I'm really not sure what the benefits of the EU have been for its citizens. Yeah, I guess the free passage of goods and services is great, the common currency is handy but life has becoming increasingly more difficult for the simple folk. So I'm not surprised if people are a little disilussioned by the "panacea" that the EU professed itself to be.
Though I am, as I said pro EU - for whatever personal reasons - it doesn't really mean much to me and it doesn't really have a direct effect on my life.
I'm sure many people would thnk the same way.

[freddie]

The original reason behind the whole "common european" idea was to prevent Germans from getting stronger military again and starting another WW (talk about dejavu ). So the European Community for Coal and Steel was created and later EURATOM, European economic community etc... so the Germans decided to make damn good cars instead of thinking of best ways to annihilate slavics and jews.

But later the whole idea grew bigger. And yeah... I do believe that besides all the idealistic stuff (with common euro heritage, nations working together etc) there are huge economic advantages. Only way we all will ever compete with the States and the North American Free Trade Agreement.