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The Racial Tension Thread


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Old 21-01-2006, 08:16   #41
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This is in response to spyretto's post in Iran's Nuclear Facilities:

For one thing, I’m not even going to try to disprove your notion that the Jews control the global economy not only because it isn’t true, but even if it was true your argument in the “Iran’s Nuclear Facilities” thread isn’t completely false, I’ll admit that. In fact, I’ll even go so far as to say your post precisely maps the origin of the common stereotype that Jews control the world economy. I don’t agree that the stereotype is true, however this post is not meant to illustrate why believing this stereotype is bad/good, but rather why the stereotype is there in the first place and why that in itself is problematic.
Let's begin with some common stereotypes Black people have about White people in the States:

-Whites would deal with the devil were there a dollar in it
-Whites are neurotic and mentally weak and that the women especially are prone to insanity
-White men are sexual wimps. (This accounts in part for their cruelty and for the women’s proclivity to go insane)
-White children are spoiled
-Whites are so jaded, they can’t feel anything. That’s why they have to jump out of airplanes and climb mountains. And they just have to force themselves on every thing, every one, and every place
-Whites are sexually kinky, prone to perversions like incest, kiddie porn, and extreme masochism

The list goes on and on.
Some of it sounds just about ridiculous but others (you can’t help but feel) that they have a grain of truth in them just like some of the stereotypes you listed for Jews. But even if I were to post some articles here and there and provide photographic evidence that the person who wrote it, proving these stereotypes are true, is White just so I can declare to the world “I am not a racist,” would you believe all of them? Does that mean one White person represents every White person in the world, or would it help if I got a handful of more White people, perhaps if I referenced 50 White writers agreeing with the statements above, would that sway your opinion, would that sway anybody’s?
If so, why aren’t we hearing random Non-Whites making statements that because Bush is an asshole, every white person is. Or perhaps I should list every evil leader for the past hundred years; Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Milosevic, Rhodes, etc, etc.
Why is it that I constantly hear Jews are in control of the US because of people like Henry Kissinger and Paul Wolfowitz, or the top people in corporations?
Would it be better if it they were White people? Would I be hearing the same criticisms except this time applied to Whites?
Why is it that these White stereotypes aren’t universally known like the Jewish stereotypes, the Black ones, the Hispanic ones, the Asian ones, etc?

The way I see it is that it is meant to reinforce the notion that Whites are the standard and that everything else is just a mere deviation. The standard is that Whites control the world economy, the Security Council, and the fate of virtually every nation in the world because it is natural for Whites to do so. Never mind the fact that Whites do so at a grossly disproportionate ratio to the world’s population because it is only when other races rival the White monopoly on power then it becomes a problem. Only Jews can have disproportionate power, not Whites. And thus, a stereotype is born.

This doesn’t only apply to Jews. Black people, obviously, have felt the White scorn when they began rivaling White athleticism. Asians too when they rivaled White intellect, etc, etc…
You can see how these stereotypes have been formed.

I am not at all implying that all White people, therefore, are innately racist despite how I come off. Rather most are simply displaying something that is perfectly human. Enjoying all of the privileges that history has bestowed on them, White people are realizing that these privileges are slowly eroding due to the leveling of the playing field. There is more competition coming from other groups now that racial barriers are falling and White people aren’t getting things as easily as they used to, it’s a classic example of survival. Had this of happened to any other group of people, be it Black, Jew, Asian, Hispanic, or even Women the very same thing would happen.
Case in point; a couple of years ago a big issue in North America was the declining performance of boys in elementary schools. Writers were arguing that the structure of the classroom, sitting all day in class listening to the teacher, was restrictive to their learning abilities. They argued that the classroom should be more activity-oriented so that boys could learn with their hands. Of course, what they fail to mention was that fifty years ago it was girls that were being neglected, obviously there wasn’t any kind of uproar towards that. And the environment of the classroom, if anything, became more and more activity-oriented during those fifty years. What changed was that the playing field was being evened out; girls were no longer neglected and as a result simply performed better. It was only when girls and even women began challenging men’s monopoly in school and university campuses and later on into professional fields that the controversy began. Soon, campuses were “overpopulated” with women. Professional fields like Medicine and Law were accepting more and more female recruiters. But yet nobody complains when MBA schools still remains as virtually an all-boy’s club.
Another example; The rise of African immigrants and their success rate in the US has established some tension between the African community and the Black community. Africa bashing is becoming very common with Black-Americans.
So on and so forth.

So to get back to your point spyretto, I refuse to rebut your implication that Jews control the world’s economy because then that it would imply that I myself would find something wrong with that. It would imply that I would find it more comforting if White people were in control. And I don’t. That doesn’t mean I would settle for anybody other than a White person. It just means that I want a qualified person, who hopefully has good intentions and acts on them.

I don’t want to negate the fact that Jews aren’t self-interested in only Jewish affairs by stating how Jews were one of the most significant contributors to the Black civil rights movement in the 50’s and 60’s, that they willingly gave their lives being lynched along with Black people in the Southern States, that they were the first and only group in the States that lobbied for US intervention during Bosnian genocide. I don’t want to prove that Jews are angels or have to be angels to avoid stereotypes and that the only people that can be excused for not being angels are White people because that would be anti-White.

I want to point to people like Roy Cohn and Henry Kissinger and Paul Wolfowitz etc and say that they are superior assholes simply because they are and not because their Jewish heritage had something to do with it.
Just as I would to Bush, Hitler, Rhodes, etc.

PS: In case this has not been made clear before, I am not claiming anybody in here of being anti-semtic, including you spyretto. I am merely refusing to conform to believing in any stereotypes mainstream society has taught me to believe in.
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Old 15-11-2006, 20:56   #42
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Polish supremacist discovers he has Jewish ancestry

Don't you just love when that happens?
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Old 30-01-2007, 22:58   #43
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great article haku!
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Old 28-03-2007, 05:44   #44
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Protester halts slavery service commemorating end of Slave Trade
Video Clip (shitty quality)

Can anyone say awkward?
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Old 28-03-2007, 15:50   #45
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Well, neither Tony Blair nor Elizabeth Windsor are responsible for slavery, that kind of outburst leads to nowhere.
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Old 28-03-2007, 18:26   #46
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Slave trade's been gone for ages. Some people just need to let things go. Our generations have NOTHING to do with sins of the past. I always considered it ludicrous when leaders are forced to appologize for something they had absolutely nothing to do with (same thing with Chinese-Japanese old sores from WW2). What happened was a terrible tragedy, but hopefully we've all learned something from it and now we can move on.
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Old 28-03-2007, 19:58   #47
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Old 28-03-2007, 22:49   #48
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I respectfully disagree.
It isn't slavery in itself that people are angry about, its the legacy of slavery.

I can't really say for the UK, I really have no idea how blacks were treated like post-slavery (though I imagine it can't be all that good) but for countries like the US or Brazil one cannot tell blacks to move on when they still experience those legacies.

I too think apologizing is pointless but because of this.
In fact I kind of find it insulting.
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Old 29-03-2007, 04:09   #49
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I don't believe in collective guilt, and even less in inherited guilt. Nations are not collectively responsible for the actions of a group of people, and nations or people are not responsible for what was done a thousand years ago. Every nation, state, or civilization has been guilty of something at some point in its history anyway.

Countries don't have to apologize for slavery because slavery has existed pretty much everywhere, everyone would need to apologize to everyone.

Slavery is older than written history itself, all ancient civilizations had slaves. In Europe during Antiquity, Rome, Greece, and the various Northern "barbarians" all had slaves, slavery was the result of incessant wars, and prisoners of war were generally turned into slaves by the victors.

With the spread of Christianity and feudalism in Europe, slavery was replaced by serfdom, which was only a slight improvement for those people at the bottom of the social hierarchy. Serfdom won't be abolished up until the18th and 19th century.

It makes no sense for a modern European country to apologize for slavery when most of its modern population descends from serfs who were themselves exploited for centuries by a small number of aristocrats. Old feudal regimes were eventually overthrown by the people and that's the end of it, even the modern descendants of aristocrats are not responsible for what their ancestors did.

And similar things happened in other civilizations on other continents, Egyptians, Arabs, Ottomans, Persians, Indians, Chinese, Amerindians all had plenty of slaves for centuries, that's a lot of people to apologize to.
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Old 29-03-2007, 06:14   #50
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Oh I completely agree with you haku but there is one thing that you are leaving out that makes the African Slave Trade stand out a little in that it was the first instance in which slaves were reduced to things, to property and not as human beings. The very concept of race was not conceived until the emergence of the African Slave Trade; racism was used as justification to continue the practise of slavery even though it opposed Christian values (of course, those values would also be manipulated to excuse slavery). Creating an ideology that gave license to people to treat a certain group of people a certain way because they were of a lesser species had lasting ramifications. Tell me of any exmaple you mentioned above, any civilization that kept such an exclusive and permanent status of slaves that low for that long.

Slavery did exist in the past (still does) but it was not ruled on the colour of one's skin but rather on the the acquiring of slaves in war or quite often, turning your enemies into slaves, as you said. The descendents of those slaves though often assimilated to the victor's society as was the case with Gallic slaves to Rome--eventually becoming senators--and, what I'm more familiar with, the Mamluk of Arabia--eventually becoming conquerors in their own right. That obviously was not the case with African Slaves in this particular instance*. Descendents of the African Slave Trade are very far from integrated in their respective societies, particularly in countries like the States and Brazil (I'm leaving out the UK out of ignorance) where segregation still exists with social structures offered to inhabitants are in dismal array with persistent resistence to repair them leaving most blacks perpetually in the lower echelons of society. (Admittedly the US has really improved in the past 20 years).

Institutional Racism, what is being experienced now, is a lasting and destructive legacy of slavery and is still with us today. A government cannot apologize for slavery and wash their hands clean of its legacy while still practising institutionalized racism; it comes off as being a little insincere, IMHO.

*In this instance; History of Blacks in Britain. Interesting, Blacks were not always seen as lesser than, they too must have assimilated into Roman society for them to be trusted to defend Roman interest in Britain.

Last edited by PowerPuff Grrl; 29-03-2007 at 16:41.
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Old 30-03-2007, 09:35   #51
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Slavery and racism are two different things though. Sure racism was used as an excuse in the case of North American slaves, but stilll it basically has nothing to do with the concept of slavery. I support black people who're protesting when they feel they're being discriminated against, because I know it probably still happens, but I don't support them refering to slavery as a crowd-gathering catch-phrase. Just as I don't support when today's modern Native Americans use the tragedy that happened to their ancestors as a valid political point. Imo today's racism has nothing to do with slavery, because racism is a much broader term. Blacks hate whites, Persians hate Arabs, Arabs hate Whites/Jews, whites hate pretty much everybody... it's the language of intolerance and ignorance. Slavery is just one excuse they used to propagate their agendas. In the same way I'm sure War on Terror will be used as an excuse against people from the Middle East for decades, maybe even centuries to come.
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Old 30-03-2007, 17:37   #52
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Blacks do not ever protest against slavery, it is usually against racism obviously since there is no slavery in the States nowadays. You're only hearing of any protests now because of the British anniversary of the end of the Slave Trade and that is with British blacks.
Same with the Natives.

To say that racism and slavery are two completely different things is just far too dismissive. You make it sound as if racism existed before slavery, it didn't. Xenophobia did, but not racism. Never did anybody think that a group of people were less human, more animal, than another (savage yes, just not biologically animal-like). That blacks were not given rights, immediately after the Civil War because they weren't socially, mentally, and just innately developed enough, people actually felt that blacks were incapable of absorbing these things. (The Republicans of the North tried at least). Health, education, or any form of recognition of blacks as people, like the vote, were therefore denied completely. Entire institutional systems were set up to implement these beliefs of inequality, particularly with segragation and the Jim Crow Laws.

This was only questioned in the 60s and enacted in the 70s. That is only thirty years ago and guess what? These institutions were not fully reformed. Is it surprising that the same power relations between whites and blacks that existed two hundred years ago, exists today?

PS: If there is anybody treated worse than blacks in the States and South America, it is the Natives.
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Old 22-04-2007, 15:58   #53
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Yeiks! *hides*

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl
To say that racism and slavery are two completely different things is just far too dismissive. You make it sound as if racism existed before slavery, it didn't. Xenophobia did, but not racism. Never did anybody think that a group of people were less human, more animal, than another (savage yes, just not biologically animal-like).
Sure there was. How about the jewish enslavement in Egypt?
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Old 24-04-2007, 02:07   #54
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That was kinda scary, whoever taped this should've also caught the people that were clapping, like WTF stop clapping, did they even hear what he said. I'm not going to make excuses when I say this however, I understand where the man is coming from. At the time of Hurricane Katrina there was a current of quasi-racist sentiment flowing; like the hurricane succeeded where the KKK and Jim Crow failed or some shit.
But this may be the same guy that actually published some straight up racist diatribe of how inferior Whites are or something. His arguments had something to do with the sun. It wasn't convincing to say the least.

To answer your question though, the concept of race wasn't concieved until the time of the African Slave Trade. My knowledge of Biblical history is quite shitty, but were the Egyptians racist?

Did they feel that Jews were not even human? Less cultured, less worthy, less entitled, and perhaps even less human for sure, but Jews, IIRC, were still considered human beings nonetheless. Otherwise they would've killed the shit out Moses once they found out he was a Jew.
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Old 24-04-2007, 03:01   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuff Grrl View Post
Blacks do not ever protest against slavery, it is usually against racism obviously since there is no slavery in the States nowadays. You're only hearing of any protests now because of the British anniversary of the end of the Slave Trade and that is with British blacks.
Same with the Natives.

To say that racism and slavery are two completely different things is just far too dismissive. You make it sound as if racism existed before slavery, it didn't. Xenophobia did, but not racism. Never did anybody think that a group of people were less human, more animal, than another (savage yes, just not biologically animal-like). That blacks were not given rights, immediately after the Civil War because they weren't socially, mentally, and just innately developed enough, people actually felt that blacks were incapable of absorbing these things. (The Republicans of the North tried at least). Health, education, or any form of recognition of blacks as people, like the vote, were therefore denied completely. Entire institutional systems were set up to implement these beliefs of inequality, particularly with segragation and the Jim Crow Laws.

This was only questioned in the 60s and enacted in the 70s. That is only thirty years ago and guess what? These institutions were not fully reformed. Is it surprising that the same power relations between whites and blacks that existed two hundred years ago, exists today?

PS: If there is anybody treated worse than blacks in the States and South America, it is the Natives.


I think your statements are far to dimissive. If it were such a big concern of yours, you'd refer to them as they are actually supposed to be which is an "African". A small majority of "blacks" and "navites" are treated badly, and you know what, it's sad when it happens but yeah, but it's not exactly like they put out a great image of themselves.

A majority of alcohol and tobacco sales in my state are from Native Americans. They also have the highest rate of being arrested because of their habits when under and not under the influence. My brother is a gas station attendant, and he said that the majority of people who are arrested in the store are of Native or African descent. I've been in the store when a man has walked in with a screw driver throught his mouth because he couldn't pay of drug debt to natives. - Thats not racist. Thats fact. And I've seen it. I'm not saying white people are perfect, because they're not. I'm only saying what I know to be an average here of people responsible for crime.



Racism and Slavery however, are completely differen't and can be identified as such by definition.

Racism: The act of discrimating against a person/establishment based upon race.
Slavery: The act of enslaving another for laborious work.

Not just black people can be slaves. So your entire case about how they are "closely related" is tossed out. Slavery can be set in upon anyone. It's just that it was Africans that it was done to in America.


Quote:
The Republicans of the North tried at least
And no, you're wrong on that. The North was only better in terms of slavery.

Slavery did not exist in the North, but Africans were still not allowed to be educated and were only allowed to have jobs that paid extremely low wages. So how did the North have the right idea in your opinion?
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Old 24-04-2007, 05:27   #56
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Heh, ok I'm going to apologize in advance for sounding condescending but I really need to tell you how to debate properly. There seems to be a pattern with you where you tend to post with such confidence that fails to accurately reflect how much you know of the subject. I'm going to play that up to your debating skills.

If you disagree with somebody (which is awesome) do so but also provide as many references as possible. You can't simply state that "blah, blah, blah, your points are wrong so therefore my point is right" and not provide any arguments or references to refute my point and back yours up. In this case, if you do not agree that racism and slavery are somewhat connected then provide references to how my arguments (posted above if you have actually read them, which I doubt you have) are wrong while proving how your arguments instead are correct. Case in point:
Quote:
Not just black people can be slaves. So your entire case about how they are "closely related" is tossed out.
Try listening (or reading) to earlier posts, there could be something worthwhile in them because pre-African Slave Trade slavery has already been discussed. My "entire" case isn't "tossed out" because you still haven't proven why they aren't related.
Definitions could be the launching pad of your argument, but never the summation.

Another important thing, quite possibly the most important thing to know is to have sufficient knowledge of the topic at hand. Stating that slavery did not exist in the North is only indicative to how ignorant you sound. Yes, slavery existed in the North, this picture is of a slave market in state of Maryland. It just ended a lot earlier than the South. And to mention that the Northern Republicans were as bad as the Democratic Southerners obviously needs explanation from you. Many, if not all, of the abolitionists were Northerners. Sourtherners attempted to reinstate slavery through sharecropping. The Ku Klux Klan were composed of wealthy Southerners who tried to prevent the emancipation of blacks in the South. They were pretty much terrorists killing blacks and Northerners that helped blacks. And they were successful enough to have passed Jim Crow Laws to make sure whites remained dominate in society. Northerners were hypocrites in that the didn't fully practice what they had preached, blacks didn't get the vote, among other things... but they at least were paid and had some rights! Now I would provide reference to all of this, some can be found here, but really look no further than in history of Reconstruction in South, it's all there. I mean, no offense, but this should have been taught to you or something, it's your country's history afterall.

One last thing that could help, when arguing such an unbelieveably complex issue try your best not to sound so glib. Simple, over-generalizing answers to totally difficult issues are not only always wrong, they are downright irritating. So try again. I'll give you hint, the way to totally disprove me is provide references that racism existed before the African Slave Trade.

You can start off with expanding on this:
Quote:
A small majority of "blacks" and "navites" are treated badly, and you know what, it's sad when it happens but yeah, but it's not exactly like they put out a great image of themselves.
WTF?!
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Old 24-04-2007, 05:51   #57
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I belive I gave a sufficient explination as to why they portray a "bad image" of themselves. Not all do, but you understand what I mean.

I'd also like you ask you how you figure I did not read your post, when I clearly quoted certain parts and responded to them?


Quote:
If you disagree with somebody (which is awesome) do so but also provide as many references as possible. You can't simply state that "blah, blah, blah, your points are wrong so therefore my point is right" and not provide any arguments or references to refute my point and back yours up. In this case, if you do not agree that racism and slavery are somewhat connected then provide references to how my arguments (posted above if you have actually read them, which I doubt you have) are wrong while proving how your arguments instead are correct. Case in point:
Quote:
Not just black people can be slaves. So your entire case about how they are "closely related" is tossed out.
Try listening (or reading) to earlier posts, there could be something worthwhile in them because pre-African Slave Trade slavery has already been discussed. My "entire" case isn't "tossed out" because you still haven't proven why they aren't related.
Definitions could be the launching pad of your argument, but never the summation.
Erm. I did.
Quote:
Racism and Slavery however, are completely differen't and can be identified as such by definition.

Racism: The act of discrimating against a person/establishment based upon race.
Slavery: The act of enslaving another for laborious work.

Not just black people can be slaves. So your entire case about how they are "closely related" is tossed out. Slavery can be set in upon anyone. It's just that it was Africans that it was done to in America.
If you need an example:

"You are a fucking nigger" - This would be a case of racism. Nowhere have I forced someone to perform a task of laborious work. Or any work at all for that matter.
Offtop:

(Please note that I'm using this JUST as an example and that I'm not trying to offend anyone)


For further more proof of why racism and slavery are completely different, I suggest you look back into American history. Remember the black slaves that eventually bought their own freedom? Many of them turned around and purchased their own black slaves to do work for them. I find it illogical that a black man/woman, can be considered racist against his/her own race, but if slavery and racism are the same thing, I guess this does make sense? But as a whole, no, it does not.

And continuing on what freddie said about the Jews in Egypt. I'd like to point out that being Jewish, and the philosphy of Judaism - are not a races. Thus providing even more reason as to why racism and slavery are different.

And while we're talking about my lack of knolwedge on slavery in the North. I'd also like to point out that I said

Quote:
The North was only better in terms of slavery.
When I said "there was no slavery in the North, I was implying that it wasn't HARSH slavery.




_________________________________________________-

Quote:
Heh, ok I'm going to apologize in advance for sounding condescending but I really need to tell you how to debate properly. There seems to be a pattern with you where you tend to post with such confidence that fails to accurately reflect how much you know of the subject. I'm going to play that up to your debating skills.
I believe when debating. It's prudent to be OVER confident than it is to be under confident. Obviously I have some detail of "the subject". I think some people just have a problem with debating with a 16 year old.


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Old 24-04-2007, 16:10   #58
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I still think you haven't read some of these posts, which are posted on the same page, that discusses slavery in general. There you will find that I haven't said that all forms of slavery were linked to the racism of today, just specifically the African Slave Trade. Post number 49 and 50 or you can just read the discussion from the beginning which starts on this page, it isn't that far behind. A lot of you said has already been explored.

Quote:
"You are a fucking nigger" - This would be a case of racism. Nowhere have I forced someone to perform a task of laborious work. Or any work at all for that matter.
Nowhere have I ever said that racism=slavery. If you read earlier posts (or at least read them thoroughly) you would find that I have said that racism is a legacy of the African Slave Trade. So think of it this way; why on earth would a black person even be offended by the word "nigger." Nigger is a word that harks back to slavery and operates as a way to dehumanize black people as back to the time of slavery. The word nigger didn't exist before slavery because racism didn't exist before the African Slave Trade.

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And continuing on what freddie said about the Jews in Egypt. I'd like to point out that being Jewish, and the philosphy of Judaism - are not a races. Thus providing even more reason as to why racism and slavery are different.
Precisely my point, racism was not used at that of time slavery. Thank you!


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When I said "there was no slavery in the North, I was implying that it wasn't HARSH slavery.
Slavery is slavery. Trying to compare which is better is like comparing the treatment of Jews between Auschwitz and Dachau. Blacks didn't work in the fields as often as blacks did in the South doesn't mean they were treated any less harsh.

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I belive I gave a sufficient explination as to why they portray a "bad image" of themselves. Not all do, but you understand what I mean.
You are talking about stereotypes that are created by white people. I'm not saying that blacks and every single non-white groups are complete angels but why the hell are we supposed make a "good image" for ourselves. Why can't we just base our opinions on the impressions an individual makes, not a race. White people are often perpetrators of serious sexual offences, especially with children in my city, does that mean that whites in general have given themselves a "bad image" of being perverts?
I hope not.


And it isn't your age but I hope you become a better debater with age.
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